NJ Traffic stop laws and guns

[Dan 177]

Well said. Case in point, note the "KPD cop" above who simply attacked me personally, insinuating basically that I should take the test and become a cop myself if I don't like how things are, rather than sympathize with the public. It's definitely a bad case of us "vs. them" in their eyes where the police, and sadly members of the public as well, go to great lengths to excuse the inexcusable rather than own up to their own flaws.

 

Case in point , you did throw out a bunch of verbal assaults on LE in general. If someone spoke about your profession in the same way, I'm sure you would take offense and go back at them.

 

The Dark Knight, on 02 April 2011 - 02:06 PM, said:

 

It's almost hilarious if it were also not so dangerous for the well being of the public. I fully understand there's a ton of laws out there and don't expect Joe Patrolman to know off the top of his head what the fine is for dog poop or jaywalking or something. But the fact that tons of LEO out there have no clue about the wordings of serious laws which carry massive sentences, it really shines a poor light on how some idiots can just make their way onto a PD. Flat out inexcusable. What other job can you be completely inept and unaware of major company policies and not get fired? I too am curious to see how far up the chain this idiocy goes.

[NJCK 5]

As an avid RV'er myself and CCW holder in every State that I camp in (except for the obvious NJ), the best piece of advice with regard to necessary notification is to check the CURRENT laws of that State for which you are carrying in, especially for differences between resident and non-resident permit priviledges.

 

As for NJ, no way I will let an officer know I have my guns. If further pursued by the officer (i.e., he/she wants permission to search your vehicle), you simply ask "what is your probable cause." Instantly, the officer will recognize that you are either LEO, a lawyer, or well-versed in the law, which will then become his/her decision as to pursue a warrant or not. I can tell you many do not want that trouble under what started as a routine traffic stop.

 

Some personal experience. I have sat on the NYS Thruway for 2 hours while a cop attempted to get a judge to issue a warrant to search my lockbox as I was passing through the State - it didn't happen, and rarely does it actually for the average law-abiding American. I have also been stopped in my former home State carrying concealed, and in reciprocal States (I tow a HUGE trailer which draws DOT inspections like a moth to a flame) where I was required to notify the officer. It's simple, when you get pulled over, pull your vehicle safely to the shoulder, turn on your hazards, roll-down your driver's window, turn off the ignition, and have your hands at 10 and 2 o'clock on the wheel. When the officer approaches, inform him or her that you are carrying concealed under permit and where your weapon is located without moving your hands off the wheel. Wait for the officer's direction - I never had one ask for my firearm, but some may - and make sure you let the officer know where you will be reaching for your credentials BEFORE you do it! It will go smoothly and just fine, but be prepared you may have some LEO's with an attitude asking "why" about your gun, and you need provide no explanation other than you are lawfully permitted to do so.

[Duppie 73]

As an avid RV'er myself and CCW holder in every State that I camp in (except for the obvious NJ), the best piece of advice with regard to necessary notification is to check the CURRENT laws of that State for which you are carrying in, especially for differences between resident and non-resident permit priviledges.

 

As for NJ, no way I will let an officer know I have my guns. If further pursued by the officer (i.e., he/she wants permission to search your vehicle), you simply ask "what is your probable cause." Instantly, the officer will recognize that you are either LEO, a lawyer, or well-versed in the law, which will then become his/her decision as to pursue a warrant or not. I can tell you many do not want that trouble under what started as a routine traffic stop.

 

Some personal experience. I have sat on the NYS Thruway for 2 hours while a cop attempted to get a judge to issue a warrant to search my lockbox as I was passing through the State - it didn't happen, and rarely does it actually for the average law-abiding American. I have also been stopped in my former home State carrying concealed, and in reciprocal States (I tow a HUGE trailer which draws DOT inspections like a moth to a flame) where I was required to notify the officer. It's simple, when you get pulled over, pull your vehicle safely to the shoulder, turn on your hazards, roll-down your driver's window, turn off the ignition, and have your hands at 10 and 2 o'clock on the wheel. When the officer approaches, inform him or her that you are carrying concealed under permit and where your weapon is located without moving your hands off the wheel. Wait for the officer's direction - I never had one ask for my firearm, but some may - and make sure you let the officer know where you will be reaching for your credentials BEFORE you do it! It will go smoothly and just fine, but be prepared you may have some LEO's with an attitude asking "why" about your gun, and you need provide no explanation other than you are lawfully permitted to do so.

Excellent information but one question, I was under the impression that the whole probable cause edict was somewhat watered down for the lack of a better term, and could, in some circumstances, be super-seeded by a myriad of national security/anti terrorism laws?

[mrjam2jab 9]

As an avid RV'er myself and CCW holder in every State that I camp in (except for the obvious NJ), the best piece of advice with regard to necessary notification is to check the CURRENT laws of that State for which you are carrying in, especially for differences between resident and non-resident permit priviledges.

 

 

 

 

Thats a little confusing as written. I don't know of any state that requires one type of resident to notify and not another type....?

[KpdPipes 388]

Well said. Case in point, note the "KPD cop" above who simply attacked me personally, insinuating basically that I should take the test and become a cop myself if I don't like how things are, rather than sympathize with the public. It's definitely a bad case of us "vs. them" in their eyes where the police, and sadly members of the public as well, go to great lengths to excuse the inexcusable rather than own up to their own flaws.

 

So, when are you taking the Test????

 

That is an Attack??? Sorry I hurt your internet feelings skippy. YOU are the one who made the statement that most cops are idiots...One would think that you would want to change that paradigm. MOST cops dont deal with Guns on a regular basis, it's not something that comes up every day in most places. It's not just the Gun Laws. You could have a patrol guy rattle off the Statutes and AG guidelines when it comes to Domestics from memory..but if he's never had to handle, say, A Homicide for instance, he'll probably have to check the book to see which elements fit what he has in front of him. On the other hand, a guy who's spent his career assigned to a traffic unit wouldnt be as knowledgeable on Domestics. As far as Complaining about the Laws, We have, on a regular basis. Unfortunately the Politicians who write this crap dont really give a good goddamn about the guys on the street who have to actually APPLY the textual diahhrea they spew in Trenton. at least half, if not more of the statutes are written SOLELY so that some Jerkoff in Trenton can stand in front of a camera and say "See?? We're DOING SOMETHING about X, Y, Z....Please re-elect me to my phony Job". PLUS there is new caselaw just about every week..changing how existing statutes are to be applied. I recall one time when the Guidelines for Domestics were changed 5 times in 6 weeks, in one instance to say the exact opposite, where one day something was a "Shall Arrest" situation, and the VERY NEXT DAY, it was NOT an Arrestable situation.

[NJCK 5]

Thats a little confusing as written. I don't know of any state that requires one type of resident to notify and not another type....?

 

I can see how that was unclear. Many States are "must inform" States when stopped by a LEO while carrying concealed. However, many are also not. A must inform State is a must inform State regardless if a resident license, non-resident license, or licensed by reciprocity. What I was attempting to say in fewer words is a case where an individual has a concealed permit from a State that does not require informing the LEO (like Florida), but that State's license has reciprocity in a State requiring the LEO be informed (like Ohio). In such case, you need to understand reciprocity means Ohio acknowledges your license but it is your responsibility to then conform to that Ohio's concealed carry laws and not just proceed under the issuing State's.

[mrjam2jab 9]

I can see how that was unclear. Many States are "must inform" States when stopped by a LEO while carrying concealed. However, many are also not. A must inform State is a must inform State regardless if a resident license, non-resident license, or licensed by reciprocity. What I was attempting to say in fewer words is a case where an individual has a concealed permit from a State that does not require informing the LEO (like Florida), but that State's license has reciprocity in a State requiring the LEO be informed (like Ohio). In such case, you need to understand reciprocity means Ohio acknowledges your license but it is your responsibility to then conform to that Ohio's concealed carry laws and not just proceed under the issuing State's.

 

 

Gotchya

 

when visiting a state you must follow that state's laws.

[NJCK 5]

Excellent information but one question, I was under the impression that the whole probable cause edict was somewhat watered down for the lack of a better term, and could, in some circumstances, be super-seeded by a myriad of national security/anti terrorism laws?

 

Never ever give up your 4th Amendment rights! That will serve you well in courts if anything ever gets that far. If you really get into this, you will find all sorts of information but the heart of what you need to understand is 1) 4th Amendment rights (check your 5th and 6th knowledge too), 2) probable cause, 3) Plain View Doctrine, and 4) the Supreme Court has ruled on several cases about length-of-detention for traffic stops. Lengthy traffic stop tactics are often meant to be coercive.

 

If by some chance you really give a LEO some hint to envoke a National Security exemption, you never voluntarily gave up your 4th Amendment rights and be sure you stick to your other rights and be silient until your attorney is involved IMO.

 

Somewhat aside, but relevant, is a proposal I really enjoyed by a law prof at Pepperdine called, "Privacy Takes a Backseat: Putting the Automobile Exemption Back on Track After Several Wrong Turns." It's probably out there somewhere on the internet - enjoy!

 

All in all, I feel if you treat a LEO courteously all should go fine. Sure, there are some arrogant LEOs, but many are just trying to really serve and protect. Give both types your best manners. Traffic stops put a LEO on-edge, so keep it comfortable for them.

[The Dark Knight 11]

That is an Attack??? Sorry I hurt your internet feelings skippy. YOU are the one who made the statement that most cops are idiots...One would think that you would want to change that paradigm. MOST cops dont deal with Guns on a regular basis, it's not something that comes up every day in most places. It's not just the Gun Laws. You could have a patrol guy rattle off the Statutes and AG guidelines when it comes to Domestics from memory..but if he's never had to handle, say, A Homicide for instance, he'll probably have to check the book to see which elements fit what he has in front of him. On the other hand, a guy who's spent his career assigned to a traffic unit wouldnt be as knowledgeable on Domestics. As far as Complaining about the Laws, We have, on a regular basis. Unfortunately the Politicians who write this crap dont really give a good goddamn about the guys on the street who have to actually APPLY the textual diahhrea they spew in Trenton. at least half, if not more of the statutes are written SOLELY so that some Jerkoff in Trenton can stand in front of a camera and say "See?? We're DOING SOMETHING about X, Y, Z....Please re-elect me to my phony Job". PLUS there is new caselaw just about every week..changing how existing statutes are to be applied. I recall one time when the Guidelines for Domestics were changed 5 times in 6 weeks, in one instance to say the exact opposite, where one day something was a "Shall Arrest" situation, and the VERY NEXT DAY, it was NOT an Arrestable situation.

 

Once again, we're not talking complex facets of case law and gun laws in NJ. We are talking about the very basic "you need an FID to buy a rifle" that was stated in the beginning of the thread. You don't need to be a homicide detective to know that. And there's really no excuse not to.