What group is more active than the NJ2AS?

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

Fellow gun owners,

I am curious to know what other groups are doing to promote the fundamental human right to keep and bear arms for legitimate purposes. The New Jersey Second Amendment Society has been bringing members together for over a year now. We hold monthly meetings in three locations throughout the state. We meet with top legislators like Senate President Steve Sweeney, Senators Michael Doherty, Jeff Van Drew and others. We have held the first ever bi-partisan dialogue on the RKBA. We have initiated a lawsuit against the New Jersey Division of State Police, and are in the process of reaching our goal of raising the money to initiate lawsuits against the towns and municipalities that infringe upon your rights.

All of this is being accomplished by a dedicated group of unpaid volunteers who donate their time and talent to this important mission. Sure we are not professional leaders. That is the very definition of a grassroots organization. We are *YOU*. Just people who are sick and tired of being treated like criminals simply because we have chosen to own guns. None of us have a criminal record or have been adjudicated mentally incompetent. Most of us have full-time jobs and are busy building our careers and raising our families.

So when I ask why you have not joined with us to make the changes YOU want in the New Jersey firearms statutes I can only conjecture that you are involved in some other more worthy organization. I would like to join with these other organizations to add our voice to theirs so that we can FINALLY get something done in this state. We are already working with the ANJRPC, so it must not be them. It doesn't make sense to me that the majority of gun owners who frequent this forum are not involved with a group that is actively involved in at least TRYING to make a difference. So please let me know which groups you feel are worth working with, and I will make sure that our organization supports them in every way possible. If by chance you haven't yet found a group to participate in, I ask you to strongly consider joining the NJ2AS.

Someone once said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, yet expecting different results. We cannot afford to keep doing whatever we are (or are not doing) and expect things to magically change. They won't. If you have ideas, energy or a little time to devote to your continued freedom, NOW IS THE TIME to get up and get involved. If you need a reason to join and you haven't yet found it - feel free to email me at [email protected] or call me on my personal cell at (732) 233-6506 and let's talk about it. I can give you plenty of reasons why you need to be involved. I would like to hear your reasons for staying put.

Thank you for reading.

 

[QuePsiPhiSmkr 14]

I have not joined NJ2AS yet because of my schedule ... I am a physician but I follow your posts. I think you are doing a great job. I does take alot of time and effort to run an organization especially an organization which has laws and events that are CONSTANTLY evolving... Keep up the good work...

[Joelk 61]

I am probably not representative of NJGF in general, as I am not only concerned with NJ, but also MD, PA, and NY as I travel to those states often for work (PA and NY) and family (MD). I also appear to differ from NJGF/NJ2AS as I am a long time gun owner who is less concerned with FID/P2P issues than I am about CCW issues. Hassles and delays when purchasing a firearm seem less significant to me than the complete inability of a regular citizen of NJ to obtain a permit to legally carry a concealed firearm.

 

Consequently, I am partial to the SAF (Second Amendment Foundation) as I said in the NJ2AS poll thread earlier this week. The SAF is currently involved in pro CCW litigation in NJ, NY, and MD, and I was under the impression that NJ2AS was assisting with the NJ case (please let me know if I am wrong as it was not mentioned in the original post). By the way, the first sentence in the OP saying that the right to bear arms is a "fundamental" right is a result of the SAF based Heller and McDonald cases

 

I attended the 8/17 NJ2AS meeting, and found Frank's comments enlightening. I also greatly enjoyed Rob Pincus's presentation as he does his best to cut to the heart of the matter. I hope that the NJ2AS will take him up on his generous offer regarding classes/donations. I spoke to Art of SJSC (who immediately shot me down citing an exclusive contract with Gun for Hire), then Anthony of Gun for Hire regarding this offer, and I hope Anthony, or someone else from NJ2AS will make this happen. If not, I will see if I can arrange a Pincus class in NJ to benefit NJ2AS.

 

Please do not take this post as anti NJ2AS, as I think you are a positive organization who meets the needs of the majority of the members of this forum, and I wish you the best in your endeavors regarding FID/P2P issues, and any larger issues you may take on in the future.

[Tosser 61]

Let me start off with I am NOT a NJ2AS member.

 

I commend you (NJ2AS) with getting a grassroots movement off the ground successfully.

 

The current GOAL/Trend seems to be permiting reform. To me permiting reform would equate to abolition of the entire antiquated system we use in NJ. It's seems that you want to negotiate/comprise to get changes made, that hasn't worked in NJ in the past; NO gun group has the political juice to swing the vote of the NJ legislature. Not the NRA, not the ANJRPC, and not the NJ2AS. Looking at other states as guides we find FORCING, through litigation, them to change things due to court decisions being the only means to progress in a heavily ANTI-GUN state.

 

I for one want to see concealed carry here in NJ. It is my right to defend myself, with any means. The gun is IMHO is the best means to maximize my chances.

 

The gun is a tool used to stop threats FIRST and a collectable/toy second. I own guns FIRST to defend myself and family, hunting and competition are just other uses for my tools (guns).

 

I brought up a point to VanDrew at the SJSC meeting, saying why do we need all this redundancy with NJ gun laws? Why am I paying for background check multiple times. His response was... Well, this is NJ. THAT my friends is the opinion of a gun FRIENDLY politician, that's not a concession I am willing to make. This is New Jersey doesn't cut it for me.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y8jK552D0c

[Tosser 61]

That being said I belong to the NRA and SAF.

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

I have not joined NJ2AS yet because of my schedule ... I am a physician but I follow your posts. I think you are doing a great job. I does take alot of time and effort to run an organization especially an organization which has laws and events that are CONSTANTLY evolving... Keep up the good work...

 

Thank you. BTW for those who can't attend the meetings - I do understand. This is something we grapple with. Unfortunately it is not possible to accommodate everyone (I wish we could). And some people simply are not going to be able to participate as much as they would like. I encourage you to join anyway. Believe me, it isn't just to get your $25.00. :-)

 

Here is the reason. The more members we have and the more people we represent, the stronger our position when we meet with legislators in Trenton. It is all about the influence. We need each and every one of you who believes in the RKBA in NJ to sign up. Think of it as a constant "petition". If we can point to THOUSANDS of members when we speak, Trenton will be much more likely to listen.

 

Thank you for your encouragement. Please consider filling out an application. We will not disappoint you.

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

I am probably not representative of NJGF in general, as I am not only concerned with NJ, but also MD, PA, and NY as I travel to those states often for work (PA and NY) and family (MD). I also appear to differ from NJGF/NJ2AS as I am a long time gun owner who is less concerned with FID/P2P issues than I am about CCW issues. Hassles and delays when purchasing a firearm seem less significant to me than the complete inability of a regular citizen of NJ to obtain a permit to legally carry a concealed firearm.

 

Consequently, I am partial to the SAF (Second Amendment Foundation) as I said in the NJ2AS poll thread earlier this week. The SAF is currently involved in pro CCW litigation in NJ, NY, and MD, and I was under the impression that NJ2AS was assisting with the NJ case (please let me know if I am wrong as it was not mentioned in the original post). By the way, the first sentence in the OP saying that the right to bear arms is a "fundamental" right is a result of the SAF based Heller and McDonald cases

 

I attended the 8/17 NJ2AS meeting, and found Frank's comments enlightening. I also greatly enjoyed Rob Pincus's presentation as he does his best to cut to the heart of the matter. I hope that the NJ2AS will take him up on his generous offer regarding classes/donations. I spoke to Art of SJSC (who immediately shot me down citing an exclusive contract with Gun for Hire), then Anthony of Gun for Hire regarding this offer, and I hope Anthony, or someone else from NJ2AS will make this happen. If not, I will see if I can arrange a Pincus class in NJ to benefit NJ2AS.

 

Please do not take this post as anti NJ2AS, as I think you are a positive organization who meets the needs of the majority of the members of this forum, and I wish you the best in your endeavors regarding FID/P2P issues, and any larger issues you may take on in the future.

 

I don't take it as negative at ALL, Joel. Let me clarify a couple of points though. First, we *ARE* about getting CCW in New Jersey. At the time we incorporated, the SAF and ANJRPC had already begun their lawsuit. I attended last years SAF Gun Rights Policy Conference (which I encourage everyone to try to attend), Alan Gottlieb and I sat down together to identify how the NJ2AS could help. At that time they desperately needed to find plaintiffs who had been denied their CCW post McDonald. We immediately went to work and quickly supplied them with two people from our ranks who were willing to apply and be denied. As you all know, this is a serious commitment. As a result, the SAF was able to quickly go forward with the suit. So, although our role may be minor and although we have not been that vocal about our part, we *DO* FERVENTLY support and work for CCW in NJ. As an aside, I encourage anyone who can make this years SAF GRPC in Chicago to attend. The conference is FREE but the information is priceless. I have had my tickets and hotel reservations for months.

 

But keep in mind. This is a "Society" and we care about our members and the gun owning people of NJ. So we are working on changing the laws that make you a CRIMINAL *JUST* because you own guns. This is an important mission. We are working hard to prevent the next Brian Aitken from happening UNTIL we can get a true CCW in NJ. That could (unfortunately) take years to accomplish. We will try to keep you from having to go through what Brian did in the meantime. I hope you see the value in that. Also, please keep in mind that as we try to change the firearms statutes in NJ, we CONSTANTLY emphasize the point that none of this would be necessary if the state granted CCW permits to its law-abiding residents.

 

Joel, I thank you for your positive comments. I know that they are intended to be constructive. Please do not worry about the Pincus offer. We *WILL* make it happen. We are already working on getting commitments from ranges that we can work with. Business is business and I recognize that not every range is in the position to help but there are enough ranges in NJ and I have formed relationships with the boards of many of them. We will carry this project forward. That is a promise directly from me. I hope that clarifies our position for you.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

Let me start off with I am NOT a NJ2AS member.

 

I commend you (NJ2AS) with getting a grassroots movement off the ground successfully.

 

The current GOAL/Trend seems to be permiting reform. To me permiting reform would equate to abolition of the entire antiquated system we use in NJ. It's seems that you want to negotiate/comprise to get changes made, that hasn't worked in NJ in the past; NO gun group has the political juice to swing the vote of the NJ legislature. Not the NRA, not the ANJRPC, and not the NJ2AS. Looking at other states as guides we find FORCING, through litigation, them to change things due to court decisions being the only means to progress in a heavily ANTI-GUN state.

 

I for one want to see concealed carry here in NJ. It is my right to defend myself, with any means. The gun is IMHO is the best means to maximize my chances.

 

The gun is a tool used to stop threats FIRST and a collectable/toy second. I own guns FIRST to defend myself and family, hunting and competition are just other uses for my tools (guns).

 

I brought up a point to VanDrew at the SJSC meeting, saying why do we need all this redundancy with NJ gun laws? Why am I paying for background check multiple times. His response was... Well, this is NJ. THAT my friends is the opinion of a gun FRIENDLY politician, that's not a concession I am willing to make. This is New Jersey doesn't cut it for me.

 

 

Hey T,

 

If you refer to the previous post you will see that we ARE about CCW. Your point is EXACTLY the reason that people SHOULD join. The reason no pro-rights group has had success in New Jersey is that too many gun owners are sitting on the sidelines. We have to show our representatives that we have the juice to influence elections, then you will see a different attitude in Trenton (and elsewhere). We are all about building our active membership to a point where we cannot be ignored. That is why we decided to start having meeting in three different locations throughout the state. This is a statewide effort. It is not about belonging to a range. It is about restoring our rights. That is the reason why we have tried to keep membership dues as low as possible. We want to encourage as many NJ gun owners as possible to work with us. If you want to have an effect on the direction and emphasis of the NJ2AS, talk to me. Join our ranks and head a committee. There is plenty of room for improvement. After all, we are a grassroots movement. There are no "professional" leaders or organizers here. We are figuring it out as we go along. I am sure that you would add something important to the group. Please consider it.

 

Thank you,

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y8jK552D0c

 

 

 

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

That being said I belong to the NRA and SAF.

 

EXCELLENT! Are you going to attend the SAF GRPC in Chicago. It was PHENOMENAL last year in San Francisco. I am truly looking forward to it.

[Dan 177]

I commend and appreciate all that NJ2AS is doing in our state, both on the CCW front, and the interim period until then with Operation Establish Compliance.

 

This tactical and strategic approach is the best course of action.

 

- CCW reform in the strategic position with NJ2AS acting at the grassroots level supporting SAF in their litigation efforts

 

- Operation Establish Compliance as a tactical and backup plan to CCW reform. Lets force the state to follow their own laws, as they are not above them no matter what they believe. Also, this serves as a backup plan just in case CCW reform fails for one reason or another and we are stuck with the PRNJ's current gun laws.

 

I happily pay my $25 a year, as it is the only way that I can contribute today due to my schedule.

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

I commend and appreciate all that NJ2AS is doing in our state, both on the CCW front, and the interim period until then with Operation Establish Compliance.

 

This tactical and strategic approach is the best course of action.

 

- CCW reform in the strategic position with NJ2AS acting at the grassroots level supporting SAF in their litigation efforts

 

- Operation Establish Compliance as a tactical and backup plan to CCW reform. Lets force the state to follow their own laws, as they are not above them no matter what they believe. Also, this serves as a backup plan just in case CCW reform fails for one reason or another and we are stuck with the PRNJ's current gun laws.

 

I happily pay my $25 a year, as it is the only way that I can contribute today due to my schedule.

 

Thanks Dan. We appreciate participation at all levels. This post is a good example. I am glad that we have earned your support.

[Joelk 61]

I don't take it as negative at ALL, Joel. Let me clarify a couple of points though. First, we *ARE* about getting CCW in New Jersey. At the time we incorporated, the SAF and ANJRPC had already begun their lawsuit. I attended last years SAF Gun Rights Policy Conference (which I encourage everyone to try to attend), Alan Gottlieb and I sat down together to identify how the NJ2AS could help. At that time they desperately needed to find plaintiffs who had been denied their CCW post McDonald. We immediately went to work and quickly supplied them with two people from our ranks who were willing to apply and be denied. As you all know, this is a serious commitment. As a result, the SAF was able to quickly go forward with the suit. So, although our role may be minor and although we have not been that vocal about our part, we *DO* FERVENTLY support and work for CCW in NJ. As an aside, I encourage anyone who can make this years SAF GRPC in Chicago to attend. The conference is FREE but the information is priceless. I have had my tickets and hotel reservations for months.

 

But keep in mind. This is a "Society" and we care about our members and the gun owning people of NJ. So we are working on changing the laws that make you a CRIMINAL *JUST* because you own guns. This is an important mission. We are working hard to prevent the next Brian Aitken from happening UNTIL we can get a true CCW in NJ. That could (unfortunately) take years to accomplish. We will try to keep you from having to go through what Brian did in the meantime. I hope you see the value in that. Also, please keep in mind that as we try to change the firearms statutes in NJ, we CONSTANTLY emphasize the point that none of this would be necessary if the state granted CCW permits to its law-abiding residents.

 

Joel, I thank you for your positive comments. I know that they are intended to be constructive. Please do not worry about the Pincus offer. We *WILL* make it happen. We are already working on getting commitments from ranges that we can work with. Business is business and I recognize that not every range is in the position to help but there are enough ranges in NJ and I have formed relationships with the boards of many of them. We will carry this project forward. That is a promise directly from me. I hope that clarifies our position for you.

 

Thanks

Thanks for the reply Frank. I wanted to post that you had earned a new member, but when I went to join online it took me to a Paypal page for payment Due to their position on firearms, and how they have screwed myself and others in the past, I absolutely refuse to have anything to do with them. I will try to make another meeting so that I can join with cash as I am assuming you accept that.

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

Thanks for the reply Frank. I wanted to post that you had earned a new member, but when I went to join online it took me to a Paypal page for payment Due to their position on firearms, and how they have screwed myself and others in the past, I absolutely refuse to have anything to do with them. I will try to make another meeting so that I can join with cash as I am assuming you accept that.

 

Understood Joel. The important thing is that you have decided to add your voice to the growing number of people who understand what we are attempting to accomplish in New Jersey. I appreciate that. I will look forward to seeing you at our next event. Surprisingly, we do accept cash. :-) We also take checks, money orders, chickens, baby goats and whatever else it takes. This is a mission that needs guys like you. It is obvious from your posts that you are passionate about our rights - you are exactly the kind of member we need. I am sorry about the PayPal thing. I will look into it. When we were first starting up we had to get up and running as quickly and easily as possible. I guess that was just a convenient way to get the job done. Thanks for bringing it up.

 

Best regards,

[gunforhire 826]

I will NOT us Pay Pal either. When the mobile CC Reader Square was introduced they did not allow ANY firearm related transactions. I contacted them and they have since changed their policy so I now use them.

 

Anthony

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

I will NOT us Pay Pal either. When the mobile CC Reader Square was introduced they did not allow ANY firearm related transactions. I contacted them and they have since changed their policy so I now use them.

 

Anthony

 

Thank you for the information, Anthony. Have we met???

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

It is possible for anyone who would prefer not to use PayPal to download an application form from our website and mail it in. I will have to look into this further but I do think there are two separate issues here. If PayPal still has an "anti gun-owner" policy, we may have to replace them with another service (if possible), but I believe that is no longer the case. In any event, I am asking people personally not to let that stop you from joining. You can download an application and mail us a check without having to betray your principles. We don't endorse PayPal, we simply use them as a convenience. Our mission is still the same - to restore and safeguard the fundamental human right to keep and bear arms for legitimate purposes, that has not and WILL NOT change - rest assured.

 

Thank you,

[s8n 14]

just joined after reading this thread.

 

 

[Tom-NJ2AS 31]

Thanks for your support!!!!

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

just joined after reading this thread.

 

 

 

Thank you, and WELCOME! I hope it begins to make sense to more of the NJGF participants. You are the people we want in our group. I realize that the people who post here post for different reasons. The one thing we all have in common is the desire not to be treated as criminals just because we have chosen to own guns. This is an important distinction. Gun owners are treated differently under the law. I am not saying that gun ownership does not require you to act in a responsible manner. Having a tool as powerful as a gun does require the owner to handle it, transport it and store it safely. However, there is a HUGE difference between an infraction by a non criminal who has historically been a decent law abiding individual and that perpetrated by a criminal. New Jersey does not currently have a method to differentiate the two within its firearms statutes.

 

We intend to change that sad fact. Making the decision to own a gun SHOULD not put you into a different "rights" class, but in New Jersey - it simply does. I hope that we can earn the support of more NJGF members. If there is something we are missing, perhaps some of you can help us bring it into our program. We are trying to be as inclusive as possible. We are open to suggestion. Let us know either here or on the NJ2AS forum. I will look forward to meeting more of you at the next meeting. I have invited Evan Nappen to be the featured speaker and we are trying to schedule something that works within his schedule. Keep and eye on our website www.nj2as.com for details.

 

Thank you,