Question on ak wood...

[pjd832 146]

I picked up a nice set of solid wood for a saiga conversion... It's not the timber smith "made in USA" stamped .. The only markings or id is a round medallion on the side of the but-stock that says century arms with a icon and dates... Nothing about place of manufacture...

 

My question is how would I/they prove place of manufacture?... And if use the wood..replace medallion with something else...and don't use the furniture as part of compliance count.... Can I be legal with tapco trigger and surefire mag?... Possibly adding a tapco brake.. To a non brake barrel?

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Doesn't matter. Those crazy 922r rules only apply to the rifle when imported. Once in the US, the rules no longer apply.

[lunker 274]

Doesn't matter. Those crazy 922r rules only apply to the rifle when imported. Once in the US, the rules no longer apply.

 

Devs,

I believe that your understanding of the 922 import rules is incorrect. It is true that they need to be imported in sporting configuration in order to avoid the 922 restrictions of having a certain number of US made parts. Once the gun is taken out of sporting configuration, then you need to obey 922 rules. I do not believe that a muzzle brake will count towards compliance.

 

http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/BuildAkVerifyCompliance

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Devs,

I believe that your understanding of the 922 import rules is incorrect. It is true that they need to be imported in sporting configuration in order to avoid the 922 restrictions of having a certain number of US made parts. Once the gun is taken out of sporting configuration, then you need to obey 922 rules. I do not believe that a muzzle brake will count towards compliance.

 

http://gunwiki.net/G...erifyCompliance

 

Disagree. Those restrictions cannot be held against firearms already imported into the USA. The restrictions exist only for those who import firearms and sell them to US residents, after that, it is fair game for you to use what you want.

 

Also, I'd like to add, there has never been a successful prosecution of these rules on any citizen, ever. The laws (outside of importers) are practically and functionally unenforceable as the Federal Government would need to prove the parts were definitively not made in the USA. How can this work, if most parts are not serialized or even labeled with a manufacturer? How can they tell a plastic piece was injection-molded in Russia or the USA?

 

TL;DR: The 922r rules only apply to those entities which import firearms and transfer them to US residents. Following this, the rules no longer apply to that firearm.

[lunker 274]

Disagree. Those restrictions cannot be held against firearms already imported into the USA. The restrictions exist only for those who import firearms and sell them to US residents, after that, it is fair game for you to use what you want.

 

Also, I'd like to add, there has never been a successful prosecution of these rules on any citizen, ever. The laws (outside of importers) are practically and functionally unenforceable as the Federal Government would need to prove the parts were definitively not made in the USA. How can this work, if most parts are not serialized or even labeled with a manufacturer? How can they tell a plastic piece was injection-molded in Russia or the USA?

 

TL;DR: The 922r rules only apply to those entities which import firearms and transfer them to US residents. Following this, the rules no longer apply to that firearm.

 

Devs,

I have read that as well about 922r prosecutions. And you may very well be correct about it only being applicable as an import rules. It does seem to run counter to the prevailing wisdom on various AK Forums though. It is common to see people scrambling over what US made parts to swap on their various builds to remain 922r compliant. I have yet to see someone respond with what you said.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Devs,

I have read that as well about 922r prosecutions. And you may very well be correct about it only being applicable as an import rules. It does seem to run counter to the prevailing wisdom on various AK Forums though. It is common to see people scrambling over what US made parts to swap on their various builds to remain 922r compliant. I have yet to see someone respond with what you said.

 

Because gun owners are extremely risk averse and get their panties in a twist over every legal technicality BS. The 922r rules only apply to those who actually import the firearms. That was their intent when they were written. It's impossible to enforce them after the firearm has been imported and transferred to a civilian.

 

Thus, why there have never been any prosecutions, and as written, simply wouldn't hold up in court.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Doesn't matter. Those crazy 922r rules only apply to the rifle when imported. Once in the US, the rules no longer apply.

 

actually.. this information is completely incorrect...

 

922 specifically addresses building firearms.. while IN the US..

 

Section 922 Paragraph R states:

"It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes

 

the idea is that the US approves sporting guns to be imported into the US...

the idea is that you may buy and own those sporting guns...

 

when you alter the gun and assemble a non sporting gun you run into issue..

 

the issue is that you may not assemble an imported non sporting gun....

when you use enough US parts the government is satisfied that the gun has been changed enough that it is no longer a sum of imported parts... the 922 game involves substituting enough of the gun so that it is significantly different than the sum of its imported parts...

 

 

one part of your statement is correct... and that statement is that there are no prosecutions that I am aware of... but with that said.. why even dance on the line... the Tapco G2 is one of the best fire control groups you can get.. and that is 3 US parts right there... US parts for AKs are readily available and relatively inexpensive...

[DevsAdvocate 112]

actually.. this information is completely incorrect...

 

922 specifically addresses building firearms.. while IN the US..

 

 

 

the idea is that the US approves sporting guns to be imported into the US...

the idea is that you may buy and own those sporting guns...

 

when you alter the gun and assemble a non sporting gun you run into issue..

 

the issue is that you may not assemble an imported non sporting gun....

when you use enough US parts the government is satisfied that the gun has been changed enough that it is no longer a sum of imported parts... the 922 game involves substituting enough of the gun so that it is significantly different than the sum of its imported parts...

 

 

one part of your statement is correct... and that statement is that there are no prosecutions that I am aware of... but with that said.. why even dance on the line... the Tapco G2 is one of the best fire control groups you can get.. and that is 3 US parts right there... US parts for AKs are readily available and relatively inexpensive...

 

Again, this law can only be enforced on those who import the firearms in. They're the ones who need to assemble the firearms into a 'sporting' configuration to meet US import guidelines, and meet them when selling them to the US public.

 

the idea is that the US approves sporting guns to be imported into the US...

 

the idea is that you may buy and own those sporting guns...

 

when you alter the gun and assemble a non sporting gun you run into issue..

 

the issue is that you may not assemble an imported non sporting gun....

 

You said it yourself: these guidelines govern the actual import of the firearms. Not what happens once they've been imported.

 

For example: a car imported to the US needs a certain percentage of US-made parts (I think 10%), usually using tires and other components. There is nothing stopping you after the fact from putting foreign parts on the car as long as it continues to meet safety/emissions/etc. This is why you'll never see a prosecution or conviction because it's exceedingly difficult to prove in the Court of Law with regards to your average citizen. There is no 'fine line' here to worry about.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Again, this law can only be enforced on those who import the firearms in. They're the ones who need to assemble the firearms into a 'sporting' configuration to meet US import guidelines, and meet them when selling them to the US public.

 

 

 

You said it yourself: these guidelines govern the actual import of the firearms. Not what happens once they've been imported.

 

For example: a car imported to the US needs a certain percentage of US-made parts (I think 10%), usually using tires and other components. There is nothing stopping you after the fact from putting foreign parts on the car as long as it continues to meet safety/emissions/etc. This is why you'll never see a prosecution or conviction because it's exceedingly difficult to prove in the Court of Law with regards to your average citizen. There is no 'fine line' here to worry about.

 

the law does not say "prevent a company from assembling a gun" the law says "person" meaning individual...

you are assuming it is referencing the importer.. but the law does not make that clear...

 

no PERSON shall assemble..

 

if you follow your logic.. you could chop a shotgun barrel down to 10inches... as long as it is not imported that way.... and that logic is incorrect... guns are approved for sale based on the gun.... there are limitations to which you can modify them... barrel length being one... sporting configuration being another...

 

18 U.S.C. § 922®

 

 

It shall be unlawful for any person ANY person to assemble from imported parts this is where the parts count comes in any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes sporting purpose is defined by things like magazine capacity/

 

the law further dictates in clarity the parts count...

 

27 CFR 478.39 - ASSEMBLY OF NON-SPORTING SHOTGUNS AND SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLES FROM IMPORTED PARTS

 

 

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph © of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

 

 

also important to note it is the person who modified the gun that would be liable.... if you are the 15th owner of a gun that is not 922 compliant... it would be fairly difficult to prove who did the work.. the law described is only addressing the action of building.. the individual that performed the work... it is not a law that addresses possession..

 

here is a letter from the ATF explaining that the person that performed the modifications would be the guilty party.... note they do NOT say "once it is imported it is not an issue"

 

[pjd832 146]

thanks for the imput guys...and vlad/lunker for that wiki link!...i read through the sticky at the top on conversions...and it seems as though every example used the us made furniture...but being i have a set i like of questionable origin...was trying to confirm that my theory of g2 trigger(3 parts)..and surefire mag (3 parts) totaling 6 would bring my number to 8...even lower than a g2 and timbersmith/etc kit that would put one at 9

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Vlad,

 

You are right, my mistake!

 

-DA

[Polak 3]

Vlad,

 

You are right, my mistake!

 

-DA

Now go fix all your guns...

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Now go fix all your guns...

 

What guns?