30 round magazine question but not what you think

[blackh8552 0]

Looking at a .458 socom ar build.  The rounds are obviously larger then a 5.56 round so 10 458 socom rounds fit in a standard 30 round ar magazine.

 

Now how the hell do I legally own a 30 round 5.56 magazine but only have 10 round of .458 socom in it?   

[intercooler 41]

stamp .458 socom only on the side of it.  does the socom has a special follower?

[brocglock23 4]

What is the magazine labels as?? Think about this.... I can fit 17 rounds of 9mm in a glock 22 magazine, It's still legal for me to own.

[RubberBullets 65]

Kinda plays into the beowulf argument too.

 

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/39864-question-on-50-beowulf-mags/

[lunker 274]

Unless you find a magazine stamped with the 458 caliber clearly stamped on it (and maybe 10 round capacity), I don't see how you could get away with it. Even then you might be hassled. It doesn't help to be proven right in court if you have to go broke to do it.

[johnp 45]

Mark the magazine .458SOCOM.

 

When you go to the range with the .458SOCOM, don't bring any 223/556 ammo with you.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Mark the magazine .458SOCOM.

 

When you go to the range with the .458SOCOM, don't bring any 223/556 ammo with you.

 

the law says nothing about magazine stamps...

 

if you have a magazine that can readily and reliably feed more than 15 rounds.. by the letter of the law.. it is ILLEGAL.. 

even glock mags that fit other calibers are TECHNICALLY illegal..

 

 

so the prosecutor takes your 30 round AR mag... stands up in front of court... loads it with 556.. and proceeds to rack through more than 15 rounds..

think a jury wont find you guilty of having a magazine that can hold more than 15 rounds?

 

I would NEVER rest my freedom on that.. nor would I recommend anyone do it.. 

[Anselmo 87]

the law says nothing about magazine stamps...

 

if you have a magazine that can readily and reliably feed more than 15 rounds.. by the letter of the law.. it is ILLEGAL.. 

even glock mags that fit other calibers are TECHNICALLY illegal..

 

 

so the prosecutor takes your 30 round AR mag... stands up in front of court... loads it with 556.. and proceeds to rack through more than 15 rounds..

think a jury wont find you guilty of having a magazine that can hold more than 15 rounds?

 

I would NEVER rest my freedom on that.. nor would I recommend anyone do it.. 

 

I would agree and just chalk this up to another thing you can't have in NJ instead of trying to rationalize a way around. 

[kman 56]

Just food for thought what if you buy a Mossberg MVP Patrol which is a bolt action rifle in .223 that takes AR mags. If you dont have an AR would a 30 round mag for your MVP Patrol be ok since it is not semi-auto and therefore not subject to restriction?

 

If a tree falls when nobody is around....

 

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2

 

 

[vladtepes 1,060]

Just food for thought what if you buy a Mossberg MVP Patrol which is a bolt action rifle in .223 that takes AR mags. If you dont have an AR would a 30 round mag for your MVP Patrol be ok since it is not semi-auto and therefore not subject to restriction?

 

If a tree falls when nobody is around....

 

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2

 

 

no because the law bans the magazine.... not the gun... the law specifically bans the simple possession of it even if you don't own a single gun.... 

[Guest]

move out of this state and to a free state

[brocglock23 4]

Are you trying to get us to sell our Glock 22 mags to you???

the law says nothing about magazine stamps...

 

if you have a magazine that can readily and reliably feed more than 15 rounds.. by the letter of the law.. it is ILLEGAL.. 

even glock mags that fit other calibers are TECHNICALLY illegal..

 

 

so the prosecutor takes your 30 round AR mag... stands up in front of court... loads it with 556.. and proceeds to rack through more than 15 rounds..

think a jury wont find you guilty of having a magazine that can hold more than 15 rounds?

 

I would NEVER rest my freedom on that.. nor would I recommend anyone do it.. 

[vladtepes 1,060]

Are you trying to get us to sell our Glock 22 mags to you???

 

nope just pointing out how ridiculous the law is.. as written.. lol

[kman 56]

no because the law bans the magazine.... not the gun... the law specifically bans the simple possession of it even if you don't own a single gun....

The law only bans the magazine if it is for a semi-automatic firearm. Nappen got a guy off of charges who was an antique collector and had a Tommy gun drum mag, on the basis that it was for a full automatic and not a semi automatic per the statute and therefore not subject to the ban. There is no limit for magazines made for bolt or pump or lever actions.

 

I am not saying that I would have more than a 15 rounder if I got a Mossberg MVP but I can see how an argument could be made. If the magazine was a proprietary design you could have a bolt gun with a banana clip if you wanted.

 

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[vladtepes 1,060]

The law only bans the magazine if it is for a semi-automatic firearm. Nappen got a guy off of charges who was an antique collector and had a Tommy gun drum mag, on the basis that it was for a full automatic and not a semi automatic per the statute and therefore not subject to the ban. There is no limit for magazines made for bolt or pump or lever actions.

 

I am not saying that I would have more than a 15 rounder if I got a Mossberg MVP but I can see how an argument could be made. If the magazine was a proprietary design you could have a bolt gun with a banana clip if you wanted.

 

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2

 

 

one more time.. I am telling you as a fact.. that the literal law bans possession.. of a mag that has the ability to feed more than 15 rounds into a semi auto.. you do not even have to own a gun.. it is NOT a qualifier...

 

read the law..

 

Evan is a great attorney.. and I am sure he would likely defend you.. 

but I am telling you with complete certainty.. the defense that you do not own a semi automatic rifle that the mag will fit is moot.. because it is not a legal qualifier.. 

 

 

 

y. "Large capacity ammunition magazine" means a box, drum, tube or other container which is capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm.

 

 

. 2C:39-3.j Any person who knowingly has in his possession a large capacity ammunition magazine is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree unless the person has registered an assault firearm pursuant to section 11 of P.L.1990, c.32 (C.2C:58-12) and the magazine is maintained and used in connection with participation in competitive shooting matches sanctioned by the Director of Civilian Marksmanship of the United States Department of the Army.

 

 

"Large capacity ammunition magazine" means a box, drum, tube or other container, which is capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly

therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm. A large capacity ammunition magazine that has been permanently altered so that it is not capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition will cease to be defined as a "large capacity ammunition magazine." An ammunition magazine, which has been temporarily blocked or modified from holding more than 15 rounds, as by a piece of wood or a pin, is still considered to be a "large capacity ammunition magazine."

[DaveWaters 0]

If 10rnds fit in a 30rnd magazine.. do 5rnds fit in a 15rnd magazine? If so stick to the 15rnd magazines while you are in NJ. Sucks but keeps ya legal.

[carguy3j 0]

What about a 30 round magazine (or 50rnd for that matter) in a bolt action rifle? As long as the magazine can NOT be used in any known semi auto rifle, wouldn't that be perfectly legal? You could even make the mag and receiver a unique matched pair, such that the magazine will never fit in anything but your one specific receiver. Perhaps some permanently attached(welded) "rails" on the outside of the magazine, "keyed" to matching slots in the mag well/receiver? The rifle could still accept other mags, but the mag will not work in any other rifle; certainly not in any semi auto.

[DSD1026 48]

im confused by so many "what if" questions..  as Vlad has said before, its pretty clear.. if a magazine holds more than 15 rounds of ANY TYPE OF AMMO, it is illegal.  The gun matters not.  Pump action, semi auto, lever, etc..  its the mag that's illegal, not the gun it does or does not fit into..  are there work-arounds?  not legally..  simply being in possession of a mag that holds more than 15 rounds of anything is against NJ law...  do people really want to take the chance?  certainly not me

[Vlad G 345]

Although the magazine has to function with that ammo as per the recent court case. I mean I can shove lots .22 in a 10rd 9mm magazine but it just won't do anyone any good, will it? So while the argument holds water for SOCOM issue, there are some limits to this. There are plenty of 15 rd 40 mags that just won't run with 9mm, depending on the design of the firearm and magazine. 

[carguy3j 0]

im confused by so many "what if" questions..  as Vlad has said before, its pretty clear.. if a magazine holds more than 15 rounds of ANY TYPE OF AMMO, it is illegal.  The gun matters not.  Pump action, semi auto, lever, etc..  its the mag that's illegal, not the gun it does or does not fit into..  are there work-arounds?  not legally..  simply being in possession of a mag that holds more than 15 rounds of anything is against NJ law...  do people really want to take the chance?  certainly not me

 Copied directly from page 5/6 of the 13:54 on the NJ SP website: (bolding/color mine)

 

""Large capacity ammunition magazine" means a box, drum, tube or other container, which is capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly

therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm"

 

It seems to me that what is "pretty clear" is that a magazine MUST have BOTH a capability of holding more then 15 rounds of ammunition AND be capable of feeding those rounds into a SEMI-AUTO firearm. If it can't do BOTH, then it seems that the law does NOT define it as a high capacity magazine.

 

My specific interest at the moment is a Lee Enfield No4 Mk1* It is a bolt action rifle, originally equipped with a 10rd magazine. I have seen .45ACP conversion kits for these, which use standard 1911 magazines, as well as conversions using AK, AR,etc.... magazines. Now, in all of these cases, you're screwed if you have a magazine over 15 rounds, as they CAN be used in any number of semi-auto firearms, even though this specific rifle is not.

 

However, what I proposed is a magazine over 15 round capacity with permanent external modifications to ensure that it could never be used in anything other then the specific unique bolt-action receiver it is designed for. Meaning, they could stand up in court and try to put in a semi-auto firearm till they're arms get tired. It would be a case of trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Obviously, the external mods would need to be numerous and truly unique, so they couldn't just claim a quick whack of the hammer, a few minutes with some 80 grit could make it usable in a semi-auto gun.

[JSF01 13]

The law only bans the magazine if it is for a semi-automatic firearm. Nappen got a guy off of charges who was an antique collector and had a Tommy gun drum mag, on the basis that it was for a full automatic and not a semi automatic per the statute and therefore not subject to the ban. There is no limit for magazines made for bolt or pump or lever actions.

 

I am not saying that I would have more than a 15 rounder if I got a Mossberg MVP but I can see how an argument could be made. If the magazine was a proprietary design you could have a bolt gun with a banana clip if you wanted.

 

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk 2

Is this actually true, that he got a guy off based on the fact that the drum mag was for a fully automatic and not semi auto? While I agree with what is being said, on the magazine must be capable of feeding continuously into a semi auto firearm, technically in that story that drum mag would still be illegal because there are semi auto "tommy guns" that are made which use original tommy gun mags, so the drum would be capable of feeding a semi auto. Was that a case were the prosecution decided to drop that one particular charge because they had him on another charge any way or the prosecution was not prepared to argue the case because they were not expecting that "technicality".

[vladtepes 1,060]

 

 Copied directly from page 5/6 of the 13:54 on the NJ SP website: (bolding/color mine)

 

""Large capacity ammunition magazine" means a box, drum, tube or other container, which is capable of holding more than 15 rounds of ammunition to be fed continuously and directly

therefrom into a semi-automatic firearm"

 

It seems to me that what is "pretty clear" is that a magazine MUST have BOTH a capability of holding more then 15 rounds of ammunition AND be capable of feeding those rounds into a SEMI-AUTO firearm. If it can't do BOTH, then it seems that the law does NOT define it as a high capacity magazine.

 

My specific interest at the moment is a Lee Enfield No4 Mk1* It is a bolt action rifle, originally equipped with a 10rd magazine. I have seen .45ACP conversion kits for these, which use standard 1911 magazines, as well as conversions using AK, AR,etc.... magazines. Now, in all of these cases, you're screwed if you have a magazine over 15 rounds, as they CAN be used in any number of semi-auto firearms, even though this specific rifle is not.

 

However, what I proposed is a magazine over 15 round capacity with permanent external modifications to ensure that it could never be used in anything other then the specific unique bolt-action receiver it is designed for. Meaning, they could stand up in court and try to put in a semi-auto firearm till they're arms get tired. It would be a case of trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Obviously, the external mods would need to be numerous and truly unique, so they couldn't just claim a quick whack of the hammer, a few minutes with some 80 grit could make it usable in a semi-auto gun.

 

 

 

while I will never tell another person how to exercise their freedom or spend their money.... the prospect of what you suggest sounds silly at best..

 

if you convert a bolt gun to take AR mags (for example) you get the commonality of that mag.. and cheapness of them...

it is a bolt gun... so 15 rounds would be a fair number of rounds...

 

to make some specific mag that is a one off makes them both more expensive and uncommon... the tradeoff for increased capacity on a gun that is bolt action to begin with sounds.. like not a great idea?

 

just putting that out there?

on the flip side.. sure.. if you made a specific mag that ONLY worked in a bolt gun and could NOT fit in a semi auto you could have a thousand round mag.. as the law is literally written.. 

[carguy3j 0]

while I will never tell another person how to exercise their freedom or spend their money.... the prospect of what you suggest sounds silly at best..

 

if you convert a bolt gun to take AR mags (for example) you get the commonality of that mag.. and cheapness of them...

it is a bolt gun... so 15 rounds would be a fair number of rounds...

 

to make some specific mag that is a one off makes them both more expensive and uncommon... the tradeoff for increased capacity on a gun that is bolt action to begin with sounds.. like not a great idea?

 

just putting that out there?

on the flip side.. sure.. if you made a specific mag that ONLY worked in a bolt gun and could NOT fit in a semi auto you could have a thousand round mag.. as the law is literally written.. 

Well, my magazine is already missing, with the mag well covered. These rifles were never issued with large numbers of spares, as the magazine (10 round) was never intended to be routinely removed. The rifle was intended to be reloaded with 5 round stripper clips. Consequently, replacement magazines, while "out there" can cost $75-$80 each. I have read that many people have had feeding problems with ANY magazines that were not originally issued with that specific rifle; requiring some minor machining/fitting anyway. And that's if I stay with .303. If I convert to .308 / 7.62x51mm NATO, then I would need custom magazines anyway, as, again, I have read that many people have experienced feed failure trying to use .308 in in .303 magazines

 

So, I can start off trying to track down an original 10 round magazine, which will be expensive, and require custom work anyway. Which would also destroy a somewhat rare original part. Or I can start off with a modern, easily and relatively cheaply obtained high capacity magazine, and then go from there. Yes, I suppose 15 rounds is "enough", but if I can get more for the same money, or less (as I imagine NJ specific mags are more expensive then "standard" factory mags), then why not? Plus, I just think a longer higher capacity magazine looks "cooler" Also, in a "doomsday" / "zombie" scenario, having more rounds in the gun can't be a bad thing......

[Vlad G 345]

I pretty sure that a good lawyer could make the argument that a 15rd 40 mag is not breaking is the law unless you actually used it that way. 

[Guest]

I pretty sure that a good lawyer could make the argument that a 15rd 40 mag is not breaking is the law unless you actually used it that way. 

 

I'm pretty sure a good lawyer could get the laws reversed because they are infringing on our rights. 

[kman 56]

Is this actually true, that he got a guy off based on the fact that the drum mag was for a fully automatic and not semi auto? While I agree with what is being said, on the magazine must be capable of feeding continuously into a semi auto firearm, technically in that story that drum mag would still be illegal because there are semi auto "tommy guns" that are made which use original tommy gun mags, so the drum would be capable of feeding a semi auto. Was that a case were the prosecution decided to drop that one particular charge because they had him on another charge any way or the prosecution was not prepared to argue the case because they were not expecting that "technicality".

 

From what I remember, his client was an antique collector who had the drum mag with no gun and this guy had no guns at all and was totally clueless that this old object he got was illegal.  So it was an antique tommy gun mag, and back then I do not believe any semi-auto only versions of that gun were made  I don't event think the original tommy guns had an option for semi-auto - it was full auto or nothing on them.  I agree, theoretically you could take that old drum mag and put it on a new semi-auto only tommy gun and it would fit the definition.  I don't remember if it was a jury verdict or a judge's decision.  In any event, I'm sure the collector was very glad to get off.

 

As for the .40 magazine and 9mm magazine issue, this was known during the federal AWB, however, the feds allowed 10 round .40 magazines to be sold even though they held more than 10 rounds of 9mm because the feed lips are spaced different on a .40 magazine versus a 9mm magazine so they are different magazines.  Just because theoretically it might work was not considered enough.  Some work and some don't - the round is not positioned properly with respect to the chamber if you switch calibers in your magazine.  9mm in a .40 magazine is positioned too high and could jam or interfere with something in the action. 

 

I think the proper argument is that the magazine might work or might not work but is not allowed by the manufacturer and would void the warrantee as being abuse and use of parts not intended to be used together - a 9mm gun is not designed to use a .40 magazine.

 

I think the best way to make sure you are legal is to verify that the caliber is stamped by the manufacturer on the magazine itself.  Your defense is that it would not be proper to void the warrantee by disregarding the manufacturer's specfiic instructions and load a smaller round in there, even if theoretically more than 15 of the smaller rounds would fit.  How could the law hold you criminally responsible on the basis that you might *dangerously* violate a manufacturer's specific instructions?

[vmastro87 0]

im confused by so many "what if" questions..  as Vlad has said before, its pretty clear.. if a magazine holds more than 15 rounds of ANY TYPE OF AMMO, it is illegal.  The gun matters not.  Pump action, semi auto, lever, etc..  its the mag that's illegal, not the gun it does or does not fit into..  are there work-arounds?  not legally..  simply being in possession of a mag that holds more than 15 rounds of anything is against NJ law...  do people really want to take the chance?  certainly not me

So does this mean a henry lever action is illegal in nj? it hold 15 LR but will hold more of shorter .22 rds? (dont mean to hijack jw)

[mikeyjones 88]

So does this mean a henry lever action is illegal in nj? it hold 15 LR but will hold more of shorter .22 rds? (dont mean to hijack jw)

Lever action != semi auto

[anactivegrenade 25]

I don't mean to hijack either, but I literally just started a topic about this.

 

So while we all understand that using a standard 30-round AR mag for .50 Beowulf (which will only fit 10ish rounds) is ILLEGAL.. Is there any brand of AR mag for .50 Beowulf, etc., that allows for 10ish rounds, and cannot be modified back into using 30 rounds of .223?

 

If such a product exists, it would be NJ legal, correct?

 

Here's my thread. http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/59057-big-bore-ar-mags-legal/