Barms 98 Posted September 14, 2013 Here I am reading reviews and watching prices for red dots and I was so aloof to the importance of mounts. Here are my questions: Do most optics come with a mount for the picatinny? Do the most popular like Aimpoint and Vortex? What about the lower end like Bushnell? (yes obviously I can read the box to find out but I wanted to know there were generalizations). If you buy a red dot with no mount, are there specific "sizes" you need to be aware of when buying a mount? It looks like the Bushnell is "fatter" than the Vortex for example. Are almost all mounts the "ring" variety? again i'm asking because a "fatter" optic doesn't look like they are mounted with the ring? If someone can post some advice or rules of thumb or good advice I would appreciate it. I won't get into questions about different styles of mounts like quick releases or different heights, that will be a different question, lets just keep this one to how you just fasten your optic to the rifle in the first place. I can't believe I never really paid attention to a mount, I just always took it for granted. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrap 4 Posted September 14, 2013 This is not going to be what you want (nor what you need, as it's a huge topic really) -- but let me say there is no quick simple answer... It's a broad topic. You ask do most optics come with a mount - I would say the QUICK simple answer to that is , No, but the real answer is, You are mixing the OPTIC with the WEAPON... you need a "mount" on both - for example, the Aimpoint you mention. You would need a "mounting surface" on the weapon, i.e. a picatinny rail on the AR-15, to accept a 'mount', like a LaRue or ARMS or included mount like on the Aimpoint PRO. In that case the Mount that is attached/wrapped around the Aimpoint will 'attach/MOUNT' to the rail on the firearm. But that is just one quick example and many other options/situations exist. Some firearms come with a rail or other mounting option included, and some optics come with a mount. I have a pair of Aimpoint Micro R-1 optics ... they came with a built in rudimentary "mount." For mounting on my 15-22, I had to buy another $100 mount, remove the factory mount, attach the Daniel Defense mount, and screw THAT to the 15-22's picatinny rail so it could be high enough to see and use effectively. The other Aimpoint I have goes on a shotgun, and in that case, both my shotguns I use it with have factory-installed picatinny rails on them. For this use, the Aimpoint factory mount screws onto the rail and it lines up just fine for use without any additional (and more expensive) mounting option. My Remington 700 has ~$550 scope on it with a fairly cheap mounting system, $30-50 rings and $30-50 picatinny rail sections. The next scope I get will probably be around $2000 , and I already realize I need a $200 mount and $200 rings for it. Huge expensive items but you don't buy a Corvette and put regular gasoline in it, right? In closing the best and unfortunately most accurate line I can say is, there is no general principle- almost each situation requires its own mounting solution. But it's not hard when we know what is going on, if you say what you have or what you want, we can easily help you get it narrowed down to what you want/need and what your options and $$$ range will be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bhunted 887 Posted September 14, 2013 He's building/built an AR.... If you have a flattop, you're good to go with almost any rail mounted optic. If you go with an Aimpoint Pro, it comes with one. But be careful where you buy. Some places like OpticsPlanet sells the Aimpoint T-1 fir example with no mount. Generally, the common config is it comes with one. Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD Typos courtesy Apple... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barms 98 Posted September 15, 2013 Flat top AR with picatinny rails. Do different red dots require diff mounts? i.e does the same mount work for a 400 Aimpoint and a Bushnell 25? One looks much fatter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
checko 180 Posted September 15, 2013 Flat top AR with picatinny rails. Do different red dots require diff mounts? i.e does the same mount work for a 400 Aimpoint and a Bushnell 25? One looks much fatter. Most red dot tube style (aimpoint pro, vortex strikefire, primary arms etc) are 30mm I believe. Obviously you will want to check your specific model to make sure. Risers and co-witnessing in mounts are another animal. There are different heights to accomplish different things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jrfly3006 42 Posted September 15, 2013 Flat top AR with picatinny rails. Do different red dots require diff mounts? i.e does the same mount work for a 400 Aimpoint and a Bushnell 25? One looks much fatter.i'm using a standard UTG picatinny .83 inch riser on my flat top stag upper...mounts perfect to my bushnell 25 and gives full cowitness on my BUIS... A little red loctite on the screws and that thing hasn't lost zero in over a year of moderate use and some banging around in the safe..you can find em on ebay and you won't break the bank... http://leapers.com/prod_detail.php?mitem=mount&level1=Model_4,_Model_15&level2=Flat_Top_Mount&itemno=MNT-RS08S3&status=&mtrack=1m2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barms 98 Posted September 15, 2013 i'm using a standard UTG picatinny .83 inch riser on my flat top stag upper...mounts perfect to my bushnell 25 and gives full cowitness on my BUIS... A little red loctite on the screws and that thing hasn't lost zero in over a year of moderate use and some banging around in the safe..you can find em on ebay and you won't break the bank... http://leapers.com/prod_detail.php?mitem=mount&level1=Model_4,_Model_15&level2=Flat_Top_Mount&itemno=MNT-RS08S3&status=&mtrack=1m2 . but that looks like a riser.. it goes from picatinny up to picatinny. what actually HOLDS the Bushnell ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jrfly3006 42 Posted September 15, 2013 but that looks like a riser.. it goes from picatinny up to picatinny. what actually HOLDS the Bushnell ? my bushnell bolts right onto the picatinny of the riser.. No other parts needed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jrfly3006 42 Posted September 15, 2013 I'll try and get you a pic tomorrow morning Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
checko 180 Posted September 15, 2013 The Bushnell 25 has a built in base. It will be pretty low if you just tighten it onto your top rail. The riser would give it a better height and sight picture with your cheek weld. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jrfly3006 42 Posted September 15, 2013 The Bushnell 25 has a built in base. It will be pretty low if you just tighten it onto your top rail. The riser would give it a better height and sight picture with your cheek weld. +1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jrfly3006 42 Posted September 16, 2013 Here it is.. Perfect cowitness with MBUS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barms 98 Posted September 16, 2013 Cool. Okay. I think I'm clear on this now. The comps between the diff sizes helped me out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,664 Posted September 21, 2013 Barms, the rule of thumb for mounts is as follows: LaRue. If LaRue makes a mount for your optic, get a LaRue mount. Exceptions to this rule are as follow: Aimpoint Pro comes with an adequate Low and Absolute Co-Witness Mount. Yankee Hill makes an excellent EOTech riser that is low cost but excellent value. Daniel Defense makes a excellent permanent (vice quick detach) low weight T1/H1/R1 mount for a lower 1/3 co-witness. GG&G makes OK gear, but usually for an extra $10 you can get a LaRue mount which is much higher quality. Do NOT get an ARMS mount. They are terrible and lose zero quickly. The big decision with mounting a RDS is figuring out if you want an Absolute or Lower 1/3 co-witness. That is mostly personal preference. I personally like Lower 1/3 as it keeps me from "Turtling" when I shoulder my rifle and it also clear a bit more of the fixed front sight post(which I also prefer), and still allows a co-witness of dot and irons if desired. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,664 Posted September 21, 2013 Photo comparison of absolute co-witness and lower 1/3 co-witness: Shows how much more of the optic is unobstructed by Irons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
checko 180 Posted September 21, 2013 Awesome pic. I'm going to steal that for the next post about cowitness Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Displaced Texan 11,748 Posted September 21, 2013 Barms, the rule of thumb for mounts is as follows: LaRue. If LaRue makes a mount for your optic, get a LaRue mount. Exceptions to this rule are as follow: Aimpoint Pro comes with an adequate Low and Absolute Co-Witness Mount. Yankee Hill makes an excellent EOTech riser that is low cost but excellent value. Daniel Defense makes a excellent permanent (vice quick detach) low weight T1/H1/R1 mount for a lower 1/3 co-witness. GG&G makes OK gear, but usually for an extra $10 you can get a LaRue mount which is much higher quality. Do NOT get an ARMS mount. They are terrible and lose zero quickly. The big decision with mounting a RDS is figuring out if you want an Absolute or Lower 1/3 co-witness. That is mostly personal preference. I personally like Lower 1/3 as it keeps me from "Turtling" when I shoulder my rifle and it also clear a bit more of the fixed front sight post(which I also prefer), and still allows a co-witness of dot and irons if desired. Mr High Exposure hit the nail on the head. Excellent advice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bhunted 887 Posted September 21, 2013 That sure gives a whole new meaning to "Turtling"..... It only happens when the water is too cold for me... LMAO! Couldn't resist... Sorry! . I personally like Lower 1/3 as it keeps me from "Turtling" when I shoulder my rifle and it also clear a bit more of the fixed front sight post(which I also prefer), and still allows a co-witness of dot and irons if desired. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sht 3 Posted September 21, 2013 Just get an aimpoint pro & call it a day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bhunted 887 Posted September 21, 2013 Just get an aimpoint pro & call it a day. For sure, comes with high spacer if you need it. Cowitness or one third... Works both ways. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,664 Posted September 21, 2013 I don't have my PRO handy, it's on the work rifle, but I think the spacer that comes with an Aimpoint PRO puts it closer to an absolute co-witness than a lower 1/3. The Aimpoint PRO QRP mount spacer puts the center of the optic at like ~1.4" over the rail. You need to center the optic at 1.38" over the rail for absolute cowitness and 1.75" over the rail for lower 1/3 cowitness. Removing the spacer in the QRP mount and putting it on flat top upper will give you a basically useless upper 1/3 cowitness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted September 21, 2013 Although I am a fan of lower 1/3 for Aimpoint M3/Pro/M4/M4s I am not a fan of Larue mounts. I am not a believer in their repeatability and I hate the smiley faces they cut in the rail, which leads to the afformentioned repreatability issues IMO. Even though many consider the American Defence mount a Larue knock off, I believe they actually have a much better clamping system. But there are a good number of options out there. I run Ops2Inc but these are not publically available. But mounts from Bobro or GDI and others are. For me, I like fixed sights with a lower 1/3 on a full sized red dot. But for the T1 I like folding and true cowitt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bhunted 887 Posted September 21, 2013 I don't have my PRO handy, it's on the work rifle, but I think the spacer that comes with an Aimpoint PRO puts it closer to an absolute co-witness than a lower 1/3. The Aimpoint PRO QRP mount spacer puts the center of the optic at like ~1.4" over the rail. You need to center the optic at 1.38" over the rail for absolute cowitness and 1.75" over the rail for lower 1/3 cowitness. Removing the spacer in the QRP mount and putting it on flat top upper will give you a basically useless upper 1/3 cowitness. Why useless 1/3rd? And if that is the case, why not just adjust pro for that measly .02 difference? Will the dot follow down if adjusted? I never used anything in co witness, so I don't know till I hit the range to try it. I just put a pro on my Bushmaster since taking all the goodies off of it for my LWRC M6 which has a T1 and Acog now..... I haven't been to the range yet to test it... Have to adjust both rifles... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bhunted 887 Posted September 21, 2013 I did want to mention there is one advantage to buying from LaRue direct if you have patience. They get good deals on Aimpoints and they do combo bundles with their mounts. You can actually save a nice bit of bux that way... For instance, they had their angle qd mount bundled with a T1, 2 moa for $666 and change. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane45 807 Posted September 21, 2013 I dont mean to speak for HE but I believe he is refering to the BUIS being in the UPPER 1/3rd of the optic which... is obviously useless. In other words it makes the irons way to high/optic to low... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
checko 180 Posted September 21, 2013 Yeah, having the irons on the top of your optic glass would really suck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bhunted 887 Posted September 21, 2013 I dont mean to speak for HE but I believe he is refering to the BUIS being in the UPPER 1/3rd of the optic which... is obviously useless. In other words it makes the irons way to high/optic to low... Maybe I misunderstood him then. I tried mounting it both ways. With no spacer, the dot sits right on top of the front post. When spacer is in, it puts iron in the lower third. So now I'm not sure what he meant because seems ok in both configurations I tried. (Shrug) Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD Typos courtesy Apple... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
High Exposure 5,664 Posted September 21, 2013 I dont mean to speak for HE but I believe he is refering to the BUIS being in the UPPER 1/3rd of the optic which... is obviously useless. In other words it makes the irons way to high/optic to low... Correct Shane! Thanks. If you remove the spacer when mounting to an AR flat top upper you will move the cowitness location to the UPPER 1/3 of the glass. Meaning that only the top 1/3 of your optic will be unobstructed by your BUIS. You will run into similar problems mounting the PRO without its spacer on any firearm with a large difference between line of sight and line of bore. The removal of the spacer is appropriate for the mounting to a shotgun (depending on the stock), mini-14, lever gun, etc... Basically any firearm that has it's sights directly on or very close to the line of bore/barrel, or something like an AK or MP5 where the height over bore is already compensated for by placing any rails rail on top of the gas system which sits above the line of bore/barrel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bhunted 887 Posted September 21, 2013 Never mind. HE is right. I was reading it backwards. Doh! No more donuts for me! Maybe I misunderstood him then. I tried mounting it both ways. With no spacer, the dot sits right on top of the front post. When spacer is in, it puts iron in the lower third.So now I'm not sure what he meant because seems ok in both configurations I tried.(Shrug) :)Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HDTypos courtesy Apple...Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HDTypos courtesy Apple... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Barms 98 Posted September 22, 2013 Before we drift into co witness territory. Could someone expand a little about pros and cons of quick release and list a product or two? I'm pretty sure I understand the tactical reason for it... But I'm thinking just another reason (and I know I'm gonna get trashed for this) but I'm almost 100% sure my long gun safe/cabinet door will not close if I have an optic on my soon-to-be-built rifle. It's too much height. So coincidentally I was going to ask a question about dots losing zero if you remove them but perhaps a quick releases conversation would be better Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites