AAR S&T Carbine I Bethlehem PA Sept 14, 2013

[High Exposure 5,664]

After Action Report

 

Class: Sights and Triggers Training - Carbine I

Inst: Joe Riedy

Location: Steel City Range, Bethlehem PA

Date: Saturday Sept 14, 2013 09:00-17:15

Weather: Cool and mostly cloudy with a nice breeze

Round count: ~250 .223/5.56 and ~30 pistol

 

I was looking for a local course to work on my carbine skills a bit and am a bit of a self-professed "Training Snob". As a firearms instructor myself, for both my agency and a regional SWAT team, I expect a lot from any course I take. In reality as the head firearms instructor, I don't get to shoot all that often - other then the occasional drill demo - as I spend most of my time holding a whistle or a timer instead of a gun while on the line. Therefore I am very picky about who gets my training money as that's my time to learn and sharpen my abilities. I also look not only for training for myself, but new and intesting drills and skills I can take back to my people to keep them interested and engaged in training. I had contacted a few other local trainers (NY, NJ, Eastern PA) over the last couple of years but I didn't like what I was hearing from them so I wrote them off.

 

I had not heard of Joe Riedy or "Sights and Trigger Training" prior to a member here bringing them up in this thread: http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/58685-local-carbine-training/ - (Thanks Acaixguard!).

 

Joe was local, the round count looked doable (fit my training allotment for rounds for the year) and the price was right, so I started digging a bit and I found nothing but good reviews. He is a fellow Cop and with his training resume I felt safe to assume the training would be oriented to "fighting with a gun" and not simply "shooting" - which is the first thing I look for in a class. I also contacted a friend in the industry that told me he he was good to go. So I wrangled up 2 friends that like to train (one of my fellow Firearms instructor on my SWAT team and one of our Medics - secret of the universe #2264: Whenever possible, attend training with your own Medic ), sent Joe an email to register, mailed him a check, and loaded some mags in anticipation.

 

We arrived at the range after about an hour and 20 minutes on the road. The range was a nice and flat, soft, grassy, field about 100yrds long and relatively easy to find. Life was good.

 

We started gearing up and Joe called us in for a safety brief. Now, a safety brief will tell you a lot about an instructor and will let you know right away if he is worth the title "instructor". Is he just going through the motions, or does he understand the actual principals of firearms safety as it relates to tactical training, not just regurgitating Cooper's 4 rules? Does he actually know the difference between unsafe and dangerous? Joe's brief was thorough and well thought out, covering much more than just the 4 cardinal rules. He discussed the "whys" and the "hows" of the system with logic and depth while keeping it funny so everyone paid attention. He then went over some basic zeroing information regarding ballistics that was quick yet concise and got everyone thinking about their choice of zero and why they chose it. Then it was time to jock up and start shooting.

 

Gear:

I ran my SWAT PC and 1st line with no helmet, for the whole class. I used Peltor ComTac Hearing Pro and Oakley Ballistic 2.0 eyepro. I shot my issued Colt R0933 with Aimpoint T1 the whole day along with my personal Glock 35 with Ameriglo Spartan sights. Everything worked with boring regularity. I used standard Glock magazines and about a dozen PMags.I had one pistol malfunction that I was able to track back to a faulty mag which received hammer therapy when I returned home.

 

In case of a catastrophic malfunction with either weapon I had a spare rifle (BCM EAG HS) set up identically to my duty gun and a second G35 in the truck.

 

Training:

Joe settled everyone into the prone at 50yards and ran a zeroing exercise. We shot this 3 times so everyone could get a good starting zero. Once everyone was satisfied we moved in and covered the initial "make ready" procedures, mechanical offset, reloads, shooting from high and low ready positions, trigger control, and everyone's favorite - clearing malfunctions, type I, III, & III - before breaking for lunch.

 

I don't want to go into each POI in detail, as you should really attend one of Joe's classes and have him teach you in person instead of reading about it online, but I wanted to touch on this. He taught the clearing of a type III malfunction (double feed) a little differently than I have seen it done before. I liked Joe's way as it was simpler and faster then the way I was initially taught and do it now. I am going to keep playing with this technique and if it continues to work I am going to bring it back to my Team and incorporate it into my own tool box.

 

Lunch was low-key. Most of us brought our lunch with us as the range is a bit off the beaten path and going out would have wasted some time. It was also a chance to stage our gear for the second half of the day and hangout with the shooters other a bit. It is refreshing to hang out with like minded people and swap war stories, techniques, and ideas. You can learn a lot from the other shooters in a quality class.

 

After lunch it was transitions from a non-working big gun to the blaster. Then shooting on the move - forward, reverse, diagonal, and perpendicular to the targets as well as the engaging of targets to the strong side, support side, and the rear. We then went to alternate shooting positions, like reverse kneeling and junkyard prone, while shooting groups to see what happens to your zero when you are not holding your rifle perfectly vertical in order to better use available cover.

 

Again I want to touch on one drill we did while working on shooting on the move. It was something I had never done before and was a real "Lightbulb Moment" for me. Joe first had us work shooting on the move without actually "moving" our position on the line at all. First, by purposefully moving our muzzle in a circle or a figure 8 and firing on command, then by lifting one leg then the other in a simulated "slow motion hurdle" while firing 1 or 2 rounds on command. These exercises let you see that even though the dot is moving, and you are off balance and swaying, that you can still get good hits by using the fundamentals - sights, trigger, and follow through. Outstanding!

 

We ended the day with a series of excellent drills - some on the timer letting it all hang out there in front of your classmates. Everyone was supportive and the good-natured joke monster started rearing its ugly head. It was fun, but most importantly it added stress when you were up there all alone with all eyes on you. I thought this was great and was the best part of the day. After drills we received our certificates, had a quick brief back and called it a day.

 

Joe is a great instructor. He has lived the life and speaks from experience, giving a lot more credence to his methods than most local instructors in my eyes. Where a lot of instructors are just regurgitating what they heard from those that have been there and done that, Joe's opinions are formed from personal experience, and what has worked and not worked in the real world, not just a flat range.

 

If you had a way to do something that was different from his POI and you could explain why in a rational manner that made sense he didn't try to "fix" you. He asked that you try it his way for the class, and if you liked it then keep it, if not forget it. If what you were dong was counter to what works in the real world in his experience he explained that as well, ultimately leaving it up to you to decide.

 

As always, the students go a long way to making a class work. This one was no different. The class was a mix of Cops, CCW carriers, and a couple of Competition types. It was cool to watch how folks from different backgrounds approached each drill with their focus being slightly different. I got a lot from watching the Comp shooters do their thing. They would game the drills a bit and their skills were wired tight. Their movements were very efficient and deliberate, and while they looked like they were in slow motion, they posted excellent times. By the end everyone was teasing and encouraging each other, and offering advice and criticism.

 

Throughout the class Joe covered a variety of topics relating to the rifle and it's uses. He covered gear/equipment selection and setup, ballistics, TTPs, and related it all back to the use of a firearm in a defensive, or sometimes offensive posture in the real world. He never missed an opportunity for someone's mess up to be a teaching point for the class and he did it in a way that didn't call the student out, but let everyone learn. He used the timer in a manner that let you know where you stood, but didn't belittle anyone. He gave you standards to meet, then explained how those time standards were initially developed and by whom. He touched on how they are used to measure progress relating to the levels of achievement and how we could use them to improve in practice. He was funny, but not a clown, and made everyone feel comfortable, in turn, making the class enjoyable. He was able to convey some fairly complex ideas without breaking a sweat and without making you feel like he just beat you over the head with a hammer.

 

We didn't kill the drills with rounds. Joe would explain a drill and the theory behind it, explain how it relates to the skill of fighting with a gun and why he prefers to do it that way, give a quick demo and then we would run it two or three times. This let us pick up a skill and learn a drill to work on it that we could bring back and practice on our own. To me, in this time of high ammo costs and low ammo availability this is value added.

 

Takeaways:

- Practice isn't training.

- You can't miss fast enough to win.

 

To Improve:

- Shooting on the move. Always my weakest point.

- Reloads. They were OK but I recently moved my emergency reload pouch after a having it in the same place for a number of years. Procedural memory bit me here and slowed me down a bit. I need to work those movements dry with the new pouch.

- Offset. Gotta remember mechanical offset better.

- Pistol shots at 50 yards. I have been neglecting my pistol skills for a while in favor of taking carbine courses. I need to fix that.

 

To maintain:

- My transitions were good. I was pleased with my time and my hits.

- Clearing malfunctions. My way works. It just takes second or two longer. I need to maintain this as I experiment with the new sequence Joe taught.

- Mindset was good. I tweaked my knee early in the day and it stiffened up and got pretty painful. I was able to continue the class and do ok despite the distraction.

 

I highly recommend Sights and Trigger (http://www.sightsandtrigger.com/) for a very cost effective and most excellent local training opportunity. I am also planning on attending another S&T class with Joe in the very near future.

[checko 180]

Great write up.  Very much in agreement.

 

My nerves got the best of me a bit on a couple drills but it was a good experience for me.  I'll be better prepared for the next time.  

I REALLY need to join a range where I can work on these drills on a more regular basis.  My lack of practice showed on the targets.  

 

Thanks for the help with all my gear.  It was comfortable and with only a couple tweaks I think it will be all set. 

[bignic83 0]

Is this a class a guy new to tactical could take or is it something I should work towards? Sounds like a good time and would help me with my skills and training. (I am not a LEO, but enjoy the training).

[High Exposure 5,664]

I think this is a class anyone that shoots a carbine - for games or for real - could take regardless of skill level, be it brand new or advanced. The lesson plan covered a lot of info and was somewhat akin to drinking water frm a fire hose, but if you approached it like you would eating an elephant, one bite at a time, it was very doable. Just set your brain to receive and don't overdrive your headlights, regardless of how fast the other shooters are competing their tasks.

 

If you are concerned you may be biting off more than you can chew, I think he also a offers a "Basic" Carbine class as well as his level I & II, where he goes over some of the more simple and common tasks - administrative manipulations, reloading, sights and trigger controls more in depth and with more repetitions.

[NYMetsFan86 9]

very informative review. Sounds like a worthwhile class to me

[checko 180]

Is this a class a guy new to tactical could take or is it something I should work towards? Sounds like a good time and would help me with my skills and training. (I am not a LEO, but enjoy the training).

While I dont think you need any formal training as a pre req for this class, I personally wouldnt recommend it to the guy who got his first ar a couple of days ago. Having a good understanding of your gun is helpful with the "speed" of the class. Otherwise you have to start somewhere and this is as good a place as any.

 

There was a guy with us who actually though it was a "basic" class when he signed up, and never had any formal instruction. He did fine on the line and kept up well because he knew his weapon.

[High Exposure 5,664]

There was a guy with us who actually though it was a "basic" class when he signed up, and never had any formal instruction. He did fine on the line and kept up well because he knew his weapon.

Who was that? The guy between me and Doug, directly to my Left?

[checko 180]

I'm not sure. The guy who had the comp I asked about. I think he was to your right a bit

[High Exposure 5,664]

Oh, ok. That was our fellow NJGF member, the self professed lurker.

 

He said that muzzle break was a Nordic Component item, but I can't find it. Maybe he will chime in.

[checko 180]

Yeah, he told me he thought he was taking the basic class.  I thought he did well.

 

He'll know to take a way to hold more mags though lol.  Stuffing them in your pockets isnt a lot of fun. 

[acaixguard 37]

Great write up, and I'm glad everyone enjoyed the class. Sounds pretty spot on to my experience with Joe's class. All my training thus far has been focused on pistols, so Joe will be my first stop when I start actual carbine training (hopefully soon). I was going to take his class last year, but Ken Hackathorn was teaching up in New England, which may very well have been his last class around this area. Being the nice guy Joe is, he actually encouraged me to take the class with Ken instead, as I may never get the chance to train with him again.

 

As far as the level of shooting needed for Joe's basic classes, I would say you should be familiar with how to use your weapon. Have the firearms safety habits ingrained, know how to load your weapon and how it operates, and be able to keep most of your shots on target at 7-10 yards. Joe will go over fundamental drills that will help dial in your accuracy (hint: trigger control). Also helpful if you are comfortable in drawing from a holster safely, though Joe will touch on this too in a pistol class.

 

Here is an AAR I wrote up a few years ago when I took his VSM pistol class...

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=85523

 

[Holeshot 3]

Excellent review HE!  

 

I see you have quite an extensive training resume with the top instructors in the industry so it is nice to know we have a geat instructor in our backyard.

[acaixguard 37]

BTW, forgot to ask earlier, but any of you guys take this class using NJ compliant 15 round mag AR mags? If so, was there any issues with keeping up with the class drills, having to reload more often?

[checko 180]

I took it with my 15 rounders. HE cheated with his work mags.

 

I didn't have any real problems keeping up but I did carry 9 mags on me at a time. 5 across the chest, 2 emergency reloads on my belt, 1 in the gun and another in my dump pouch cause I didn't feel like leaving it on the table. I think it was only me and lurker Matt with 15's.

 

I got down pretty low a couple times but I kept back filling towards my belt when there was a break, and couple times I took out 1/4 full mags from my pouch and condensed into a single Mag. Taught me to be smart with my reloads

[High Exposure 5,664]

Excellent review HE!  

 

I see you have quite an extensive training resume with the top instructors in the industry so it is nice to know we have a geat instructor in our backyard.

 

 

Thanks Holeshot, I was very happy to find that to be the case as well. Driving to NC, OH, VA for 2-3 days at a clip was getting expensive an harder to do with a 3 year old at home.

 

BTW, forgot to ask earlier, but any of you guys take this class using NJ compliant 15 round mag AR mags? If so, was there any issues with keeping up with the class drills, having to reload more often?

I carried 5 issued 30 rounders to the line. 3 across the chest, one in the gun and 1 in my newly located emergency reload pouch on my belt at 9 o'clock in a Safariland mid-ride UBL.

 

I also back filled my e-load pouch and conducted Tac loads from my chest while storing partials in my dumper and consolidating partial mags during lulls in the firing schedule.

 

Matt and Checko kept up fine, although Matt ran out of ammo at one point and I gave him one of my 30s to finish the drill. Joe was great about breaks to top off and telling you what you needed ammo wise before stepping up to the line.

 

While we learned A LOT it wasn't a frantic pace to keep up with the POI.

[Holeshot 3]

BTW, forgot to ask earlier, but any of you guys take this class using NJ compliant 15 round mag AR mags? If so, was there any issues with keeping up with the class drills, having to reload more often?

 

I did not take this class but I did take a class in Pittsburgh, PA by Mr. Vickers and I used 30-round mags.  I borrowed them from a friend in PA.   I think I was the only one from NJ taking the class so I was not sure if the 15-round mags were going to be an issue or not.

 

Interestingly enough there was a gentleman ( a PA resident) who was using 20-rounders in the class and he ran out of mags on one of the drills.

 

Mr. Vickers asked him why he was using 20-round mags and the gentleman responded that he was non-leo and that he shouldn't need more than 20 rounds to "get the job done" in his own words. 

 

Mr. Vickers bellowed at the guy "Your an Idiot!, get some 30-round mags!"

 

We all went quiet and the guy looked shell shocked and then Mr. Vickers cracked a smile at us and said "I bet he was expecting that answer."  LOL

 

 

Anyway,  I figure as NJ non-leo it is probably better for us to run these drills (if allowed) with multiple 15-rounders like Checko did.

[checko 180]

I thought about keeping 30 rounders at a friends before class (he lives in the next town over actually) but I figured that I wouldn't ever get to use 30 rounders in the real world so I need to use the 15 rounders.  I would urge others to do the same. 

[Holeshot 3]

I thought about keeping 30 rounders at a friends before class (he lives in the next town over actually) but I figured that I wouldn't ever get to use 30 rounders in the real world so I need to use the 15 rounders.  I would urge others to do the same. 

Yes, agreed

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

Nice write-up HE.  Sounds like it was a great class.  I'll have to watch for future offerings.

[checko 180]

Nice write-up HE.  Sounds like it was a great class.  I'll have to watch for future offerings.

 

I'm gonna try to get something set up.  Keep an eye on the other thread.

[medic2264 11]

I was also in attendance with High Exposure and another LEO buddy.

 

RANGE:

     Steel City Gun Club is tucked away in Bethlehem PA.  Its kinda off the beaten path, but very easy to get to.  It was about an hour drive for me from Mercer County (traffic was light in the early morning).  As High Exposure stated its a 100yd flat grassy range, its not the best range, but it is very far from the worst.  There are no amenities at this range, but hey its a gun range.  Food and water is on you, there does not seem to be any stores nearby.

 

WEATHER:

     It was a good day for shooting, not to hot, not to cold.  Sunny with some clouds and a breeze.

 

GEAR:

     I ran the course with my armor w/plates (BAE RBAV).  On my armor I have 3 rifle mags across the front, with 2 pistol mags on my upper left side.  I have no problem getting into the prone position with this set up.  I also run an ATS warbelt with suspenders.  On the warbelt I am running with two pistol mags, a ready mag for rifle, dump pouch, IFAK, and 6395 Safariland holster for my Glock 35.  I debated running this course slick (warbelt only), but it had been sometime since I have shot with my kit on, and High Exposure was giving me shit if I didn't.

 

GUNS:

     My primary is a Franken Rifle that I built up this summer, and it is chambered in 300 AAC Blackout.  The lower is a Mega Billet with Geissele SSA trigger installed, and other standard parts.  Stock, grip, and rail is from LaRue Tactical.  Barrel is from Rainer with a PWS FSC compensator.  My optic is a IOR Valdada QR-TS 3x25.  My WML is a Surefire Fury.  Current round count (after this class) for this rifle is 635, with no issues.

     MAGAZINES: I used my brand new 1st generation Tango Down ARC magazines.  They worked, but then they didn't.  Tango Down makes excellent magazines however, the gen 1 ARC's not so well.  The Gen 2 ARC magazines work very well and have none of the issues related to the gen 1.  I sent an email off to TD, the old gen 1 ARC magazines are on their way back, and Gen 2 ARC magazines are being sent as replacements.  Tango Down has great customer service.

 

     My secondary is a Gen 3 Glock 35 with a lonewolf barrel, and Fiber optic front and rear sights.  The rest of the pistol is stock, except for an excellent trigger job by High Exposure.  Current WML is a Surefire 300X ultra.  Magazines were all OEM Glock.

 

AMMO:

     300 AAC Blackout- 125gn OTMK Sierra with 17.2gn of LilGun power, CCI primers, LC cases.  Every round went boom, and if I did my part everything went where it was supposed to.

     .40S&W- 180gn bullets, Winchester WST powder, CCI primers, and mixed cases.

 

THE CLASS:

     Joe started off with some introductions, gave his CV, and then went into his safety briefing.  He was to the point, gave credit where credit was due, and laid out his expectations for todays course.  We then did a 5 round 50yd zero, made some adjustments, shot the zero again, and we did this a few more times to make sure everyone was where they needed to be.  Joe ran us through some drills, at different distances, and then went into remembering your offset (2.5" difference between your sight and the barrel).  From there we went from static drills, to turning and shooting, and then shooting on the move.  Reloading was covered, ammo / magazine management was also gone over.  Next we worked on malfunctions and how to clear them.

     Lunch was on you, it gave you sometime to talk to other shooters, load magazines, and check over your equipment.  From there we went into transitions, and covered when and where you should transition from primary to secondary, or reload.  The rest of the day was some more shooting drills at varying distances (remember your offset).

     Overall the class was a great refresher for me, with some new stuff mixed in.  Joe is a great instructor, and I would definitely take more classes from him.  It was also nice to put some faces to screen names from NJGF.  The guys from Bethlehem PD were also great, thanks for setting up this class.  

 

Its always tough to write a AAR after High Exposure posts his.

[Lalo 13]

Sounds like an awesome class! I'm hoping to find another local class before next summer. I'm sure something will come up.

[checko 180]

Ok, so I don't think we're going to be able to get anything done this year, with holidays and such coming up.  I'm thinking of trying maybe the first weekend in March, doing a 2 day carbine, or carbine and pistol.   It would likely run $300 give or take.  I'm also going to try to have it at the same range.  

 

I know its a little ways away but what do you all think?

[Crusher 0]

This sounds like just the ticket. I'm interested in the next course. That is....if you are still in need of a 'lurker' for the next class. I've been looking for just such training in he area.

[checko 180]

Quick update. I just shot Joe from S&T an email trying to follow up with the class next spring. I asked him about doing the 2 day carbine with low light. I will update with a yay or nay and any info regarding dates and pricing etc.