So...a 14" pistol gripped shotgun is not an NFA weapon? Really?

[specopsscout 26]

http://shockwavetechnologies.com/site/?page_id=88
 

I get a lot of questions from customers about the “new” ATF ruling regarding pistol-grip-only (PGO) firearms with 14″ barrels that aren’t considered NFA items.

Well, first off, let me say, it’s not a new ruling. It’s the same position that ATF has always taken regarding PGO firearms that fire a fixed shotgun shell that have NEVER had a buttstock attached to them—they’re NOT shotguns! They’re simply firearms. As such, they don’t necessarily need to have 18″+ barrels on them to remain out of the purview of the NFA.

You see, the very definition of a “shotgun” requires that it be “designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder…” Without a buttstock ever having been fitted to the PGO firearms in question, they can’t be fired from the shoulder and are therefore not shotguns. Hence, with a 14″ barrel, they can’t be considered short-barreled shotguns, as they aren’t shotguns to begin with. Read the full definition of a shotgun here.

PGO firearms that remain longer than 26″ in overall length also can’t be defined as AOWs. That’s because the term “any other weapon” (AOW) means “any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person…” And ATF maintains that to be concealed, the firearm needs to be shorter than 26″. Read the full definition of an AOW here.

More on the subject is available in these two letters to Len Savage—the guy who will be making a lot of these non-NFA firearms in the coming months and years:
July 20, 2010 letter from NFA Tech Branch to Mr. Len Savage
October 27, 2010 letter from NFA Tech Branch to Mr. Len Savage
Page 1 of third letter
Page 2 of third letter

All that said, I’m not a firearms attorney. And I’m not offering legal advice here. I am simply relating things the way I understand them. Be sure you check with all the appropriate agencies.

Now, a pistol-grip-only Mossberg 500 with a 14″ barrel and the Raptor Grip installed measures 26.5″ in overall length (measured parallel to the bore).

–Marty

What say the masses ?

 

[vladtepes 1,060]

according to NJ..  

they MIGHT be right.. technically at least.. 

 

 

 

n. "Shotgun" means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shots or a single projectile for each pull of the trigger, or any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder which does not fire fixed ammunition.

o. "Sawed-off shotgun" means any shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length measured from the breech to the muzzle, or a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length measured from the breech to the muzzle, or any firearm made from a rifle or a shotgun, whether by alteration, or otherwise, if such firearm as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

 

I would say that it will take a LOT more reading to be sure I am not missing something.. 

but if you did decide to go for it.. tread lightly.. because it looks off the wall enough that you may need to explain yourself... 

 

if you could buy it complete like that and have an FFL transfer it it would IMO be more comforting.. 

as opposed to putting that grip on and shortening it.. 

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I wouldn't wanna be the first one to try it

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[maintenanceguy 510]

The problem is:  The jury gets the law the judge decides to give them with the instructions as the judge interprets the law and as we've seen in case after case lately, what the law says sometimes has little relevance on how the courts rule.

[Vlad G 345]

More importantly .. why .. why would you want to besides poking your finger of at the eye of the man? It isn't that interesting of a weapon.

[Respect2A 0]

More importantly .. why .. why would you want to besides poking your finger of at the eye of the man? It isn't that interesting of a weapon.

I doubt it's fun to shoot either.

[Blake 50]

I dont see how that could be remotely comfortable to shoot.

[vladtepes 1,060]

very close range anti people gun... nice for in a car in a free state.. 

[njJoniGuy 2,131]

I don't want to be on EITHER end of that baby!

[JT Custom Guns 957]

Before anyone gets any ideas - remember the overall length rule.

If you swapped that grip for the more traditional "Pistol" grip you would be 

under 26" overall (I believe) and that would make it illegal.............

[Blake 50]

This thing would be best suited mounted on a motorcycle in a zombie movie.

 

 

[PK90 3,570]

If not a shotgun, then >

 

"Destructive device" means any device, instrument or object designed to explode or produce uncontrolled combustion, including (1) any explosive or incendiary bomb, mine or grenade; (2) any rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces or any missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one quarter of an ounce; (3) any weapon capable of firing a projectile of a caliber greater than 60 caliber, except a shotgun or shotgun ammunition generally recognized as suitable for sporting purposes; (4) any Molotov cocktail or other device consisting of a breakable container containing flammable liquid and having a wick or similar device capable of being ignited. The term does not include any device manufactured for the purpose of illumination, distress signaling, line-throwing, safety or similar purposes.

[carguy3j 0]

I have a possibly stupid question....... What if a.) it had a "real" pistol grip, b.) it was really, really short (actual "pistol" length), and c.) never, ever came with or had installed a buttstock?

 

In other words, can you have an actual "pistol"/handgun that simply happens to fire shotgun shells? I know there is the Tuarus "judge" line that fires .410, but what about an actual shotgun "action" but in pistol size, or a semi auto handgun chambered in a shotgun shell?

[vladtepes 1,060]

If not a shotgun, then >

 

"Destructive device" means any device, instrument or object designed to explode or produce uncontrolled combustion, including (1) any explosive or incendiary bomb, mine or grenade; (2) any rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces or any missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one quarter of an ounce; (3) any weapon capable of firing a projectile of a caliber greater than 60 caliber, except a shotgun or shotgun ammunition generally recognized as suitable for sporting purposes; (4) any Molotov cocktail or other device consisting of a breakable container containing flammable liquid and having a wick or similar device capable of being ignited. The term does not include any device manufactured for the purpose of illumination, distress signaling, line-throwing, safety or similar purposes.

 

 

ah good catch.. no go in NJ.. 

[halbautomatisch 60]

I have a possibly stupid question....... What if a.) it had a "real" pistol grip, b.) it was really, really short (actual "pistol" length), and c.) never, ever came with or had installed a buttstock?

 

In other words, can you have an actual "pistol"/handgun that simply happens to fire shotgun shells? I know there is the Tuarus "judge" line that fires .410, but what about an actual shotgun "action" but in pistol size, or a semi auto handgun chambered in a shotgun shell?

IIRC - two issues, barrel needs to be rifled to be a pistol, and a gun with a rifled barrel larger than .50 cal is a destructive device, excluding muzzleloaders and antiques.

[specopsscout 26]

If not a shotgun, then >

 

"Destructive device" means any device, instrument or object designed to explode or produce uncontrolled combustion, including (1) any explosive or incendiary bomb, mine or grenade; (2) any rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces or any missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one quarter of an ounce; (3) any weapon capable of firing a projectile of a caliber greater than 60 caliber, except a shotgun or shotgun ammunition generally recognized as suitable for sporting purposes; (4) any Molotov cocktail or other device consisting of a breakable container containing flammable liquid and having a wick or similar device capable of being ignited. The term does not include any device manufactured for the purpose of illumination, distress signaling, line-throwing, safety or similar purposes.

I'm not someone who breaks the law. I've been on the job as a C.O. for better then twenty years, and have another fourteen years split between the Marine Corps and US Army, reserve and active. I say this to reinforce that I understand rules and laws, and I follow them. Having never lived for long periods in a free state, I have sheepishly accepted the common doctrine that a shotgun must have a barrel with a minimum length of 18" and all of my scatter guns have had barrels of that length or longer. My only shotgun at the moment has a 36" barrel on it, but it's a family heirloom and not one  I routinely fire for more then nostalgia.

 

With that said, wouldn't the emboldened area be the exception for the rule you just quoted? i realize we are splitting hairs, but the majority of this hypothetical discussion is splitting hairs of the law and running amok in the grey area.

 

As to the abusive recoil mentioned earlier, it's actually not nearly as bad, as you might think. I fired a fair number of rounds through a pistol gripped shotgun over the years, and while the 3" magnums will certainly get your attention(my hand hurt all day after rapid firing six), the 2 3/4" standards are fine; the reduced recoil loads even more so. As a matter of fact, the very first weapon I purchased at eighteen years old, was a Mossberg Model 500 Persuader in 12 gauge. It came with a pistol grip from the factory, six shot tube and cylinder bore 18" barrel.

 

I won't get into the practicality side of the debate. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and there are many things in life that broach the subject...Do I really need a motorcycle that can run two hundred miles an hour? Do I really need to have a supercharger on my Mustang? Wasn't the original 300 horses more then enough...as a matter of fact, why would anyone need a car with that much horsepower, when sixty horsepower cars are working just fine...Do I really need to carry a firearm everywhere I go...and so on and so forth...

 

From a practical standpoint, it still carries six rounds of extremely potent anti personnel ammunition in a fairly compact package. With practice it can be very effective at short range, and it's compact size allows it to be deployed in confined spaces where larger weapons can be more difficult to maneuver.  I have shot pistol gripped shotguns effectively beyond fifteen yards in tactical runs, and just for fun have shot skeet with one. It was fun and I hit more then I missed...