Precision AR15

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

Hi, do any of you know anything about long range precision AR's ? I'd love to be able to shoot accurately at 1000 yards. I've never tried that with any gun but I'd like to learn how. Realistically I won't be able to travel to a range that has 1000 yards very often, so I'd have to find a range that has 600 yards and shoot there most of the time.

Does anyone have a 6mmAR turbo ? How about a 264 WSSM ? 6mm BRX ? I posted this on another forum and it was recommended that I get a 264LBC/6.5Grendel a member wrote that he gets tight groups at 1000 yards. Obviously shooting at that distance is very hard, but what caliber do you think would serve me best ?

Also I know I need a good trigger but are there any triggers under $150 that would be good enough or do I need a Jewell, Geissele DMR, JP, Gold trigger etc. ? Can I get good results with a RRA ? It's less then a quarter of the price of the triggers mentioned above.

[Rob0115 1,105]

Hi, do any of you know anything about long range precision AR's ? I'd love to be able to shoot accurately at 1000 yards. I've never tried that with any gun but I'd like to learn how. Realistically I won't be able to travel to a range that has 1000 yards very often, so I'd have to find a range that has 600 yards and shoot there most of the time.

Does anyone have a 6mmAR turbo ? How about a 264 WSSM ? 6mm BRX ? I posted this on another forum and it was recommended that I get a 264LBC/6.5Grendel a member wrote that he gets tight groups at 1000 yards. Obviously shooting at that distance is very hard, but what caliber do you think would serve me best ?

Also I know I need a good trigger but are there any triggers under $150 that would be good enough or do I need a Jewell, Geissele DMR, JP, Gold trigger etc. ? Can I get good results with a RRA ? It's less then a quarter of the price of the triggers mentioned above.

I have a Grendel and a 6mmAR (non-turbo).  The Grendel shoots wonderfully at distance, I haven't had the 6mmAR out for anything other than sighting--took a long time to save up for glass.  The 6mmAR is rumored to be quite a bit better than the Grendel at long distance.  

 

Frank has fired his, we have the same barrel just different receiver setups.  Maybe he can chime in on the 6mmAR.  He is far more knowledgeable than me on distance shooting.  I suck, but I'm working toward getting better.  After all it should be fun to practice (although I do get frustrated sometimes). 

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

Thanks Nick, I am trying to stay with the ar15 platform. I agree, I don't think SHTF situations would need more then 150 yard range unless it's for hunting , this is for paper punching. That said, whatever caliber it is that I build, and I'm leaning to 264LBC, is it practical to use a RRA trigger ? I'm trying to compile a parts list so that whenever I scratch together a few dollars I can put it towards parts.

[T Bill 649]

A RRA two stage trigger (3.5 or 4.5 varieties) is not a bad investment.  However, it will not make the long haul of time that the others do.  How often you pull the trigger will be the deciding factor here.  I still have RRA triggers installed and they work great.  Would I replaced a failed RRA with another one? Probably not.

[7.62fmj 0]

My RRA trigger was great until it wore out and became an almost one stage mush. If you want a budget trigger and don't care whether it's one or two stage, you could get an ALG trigger and a set of lighter springs. Otherwise, my go to is Geissle. Not too sure on calibers, my experience in distance ahooting is only with 5.56 out to 600 yds. The biggest thing you need is to practice how to compensate for wind, light conditions, etc.

[DeerSlayer 241]

The rifle itself is only half the battle, learning the correct math to accomplish your goal is the real challenge. And personally I would be looking at a bolt gun to accomplish 600+ yard bullseye's. But it is possible to build an AR platform that will hit those distances with accuracy. Along with the rifle I would be looking at how to make hand loads for those distances. Guys that shoot those distances rarely use ammo off the shelf. Maybe an AR10 platform would be a better choice with multiple .30 caliber chambers to pick from as apposed to the AR15. Just my $.02 brother. They do make a single shot .50cal bolt upper for the AR15 platform though. That's another option.

[Scorpio64 5,163]

For 1000 yds, you may want to consider building your rifle on an AR-10 lower.  .243 Win, 6.5CM, 7mm-08 and of course .308 are all pretty good at long distance shooting.  I have plans to build an AR-10 in 243 as a companion to my Ruger American (which will eventually be replaced with a RPR). 

[Alex V 99]

For 1000 yds, you may want to consider building your rifle on an AR-10 lower.  .243 Win, 6.5CM, 7mm-08 and of course .308 are all pretty good at long distance shooting.  I have plans to build an AR-10 in 243 as a companion to my Ruger American (which will eventually be replaced with a RPR). 

 

I agree.  The general consensus if you want to stay AR anything seems to be 6.5CM.

 

Can you get enough powder in an AR15 sized cartridge to reach out 1000y effectively?  I know you can lob a 77gr 5.56 projectile that distance but how much damage will it do once it gets there?

[T Bill 649]

I agree.  The general consensus if you want to stay AR anything seems to be 6.5CM.

 

Can you get enough powder in an AR15 sized cartridge to reach out 1000y effectively?  I know you can lob a 77gr 5.56 projectile that distance but how much damage will it do once it gets there?

It's only paper so who cares?  6.5CM bolt would be my choice in this case.  

Did you look at the ballistics for 77gr 223 at 1000 yards? What is the bullet drop like?  Seems to me you'd be lobbing those suckers in there at best!

[Scorpio64 5,163]

It's only paper so who cares?  6.5CM bolt would be my choice in this case.  

Did you look at the ballistics for 77gr 223 at 1000 yards? What is the bullet drop like?  Seems to me you'd be lobbing those suckers in there at best!

 

Federal gold match (600yd zero) 77gr has 180 ft-Lbs at 1000yds and drops 302 inches (over 25 feet of drop).

[almiz111 26]

You need to do lots of research and reading.  Explore High Power and F Class. Check the RRA catalog very carefully and you will see what uppers and triggers are made for match shooting which is what you are actually inquiring about. I speak here about iron sights. Scopes will only make it easier. 

 

Not sure about AR15 w/223 or 556 at 1000 yards. I think 68gr  HPBT will do pretty good at 600 but not more. And that whole deal is pretty specialized. Example: you need to push the bullet out a bit, closer to the lands. These cartridges will not fit in an AR mag - single load only. Of course now I am talking hand loading.

 

It's fun and interesting. 

[Eric. 9]

Im into precision rifle shooting.  I shoot AR's (223) and bolt guns (6.5c).

 

There is a bit of a learning curve, shooting mid or long distance.  It is part knowledge, part skill & art and part equipment.  You need all three to have any success, otherwise, you won't enjoy it much. Shooting long range takes much more than jsut putting the crosshair on the target and squeezing a round off. There is a ton to cover, but I'll just stick to the equipemnt, since you asked.

 

Getting to 1000yds with a gas gun is much more difficult than a bolt gun, even if they are the same caliber.  Gas guns are not as easy to shoot accurately and the gun (by design) is not as accurate as a bolt gun.

 

Ballistically, every round has it's limitations and you need one that is suitable for the intended distance.  With AR frames you are better off with a larger caliber.  My pick would be a 6.5 Creedmoor.  It's a great long distance round and it fits into 308 AR magazines.  It feeds well too due to the long, thin bullet ogive.

 

Another thing to be aware of is the BC of the bullet.  The ballistic coefficient tells you how well the round flies and how well it bucks the wind.  Velocity isnt king, BC is.

 

That brings me to another point- make sure your chosen round can get to 1000 yds before going transonic.  Transonic speed is around 1125 ft per sec.  Where the round goes transonic is where the limitation of your distance should be.

 

You have to buy a good, match quality barrel.  Do not skrimp here at all.

 

For reference, my AR 15 is set up for precision rifle.  It's a .223 and it's good to around 800-825 yds, using mag length 77gr Sierra bullets and my handloads (it helps to reload your own so you can use fire formed cases).  I use a WOA 18" SPR stainless, 1-7 twist wylde chamber barrel, Geissele NM DMR trigger along with a fitted BCG.  It also has a free float quad rail.

 

There is a ton more to it, I just scratched the surface.

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

Thank you all. I do hand load, and I'm only looking to hit paper. I know the main battle will be learning to shoot at such distances. I know that 223 is not a 1000 yard round but I'm talking about 6.5G although 6.5C would make more sense I'd like to stick to the AR15. I know that it can be done well there are several people that told me that they do it and that the bullet stays transonic. Thank you for the advice Eric, I can't afford a krieger or lilja or Saturn but the barrel I'm thinking of has good reports. What is a fitted bolt carrier ? Does anyone have anything else to add ?

[Eric. 9]

Thank you all. I do hand load, and I'm only looking to hit paper. I know the main battle will be learning to shoot at such distances. I know that 223 is not a 1000 yard round but I'm talking about 6.5G although 6.5C would make more sense I'd like to stick to the AR15. I know that it can be done well there are several people that told me that they do it and that the bullet stays transonic. Thank you for the advice Eric, I can't afford a krieger or lilja or Saturn but the barrel I'm thinking of has good reports. What is a fitted bolt carrier ? Does anyone have anything else to add ?

 

6.5G barely gets to 1000 with a 16" barrel. 

 

You want a bullet that stays supersonic.  Transonic is when it starts to cross over to subsonic and all kinds of bad things happen (ballistically).  Even if you are shooting paper/steel, you still need a round that is suitable.

 

A fitted bolt just means that I had it mated to the barrel extension better and the headspace is checked.  It's part of the process of eliminating the slop that is inherent with semi autos.  Not a must do, but every bit counts in teh precision rifle game.

 

*Edit- When you get it built, I can take you to Mifflin Range in PA.  It's a great 1000 yd range but a bit of a ride from my cottage (in Somerset County).

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

Thank you for the kind offer. It will be a while before I can take you up on it. I figure it will take me over a year to save up enough for the barrel optic and mount. And then I'll need a good range finder ...

I plan on getting a 24" Bull barrel with polygonal rifling so it will give me speeds of a 26" barrel.

[Eric. 9]

Thank you for the kind offer. It will be a while before I can take you up on it. I figure it will take me over a year to save up enough for the barrel optic and mount. And then I'll need a good range finder ...

I plan on getting a 24" Bull barrel with polygonal rifling so it will give me speeds of a 26" barrel.

Sam,

 

If you don't mind, let me make a couple of suggestions.

 

I would suggest going with a cut rifled barrel, rather than poly.  A 24" barrel will be enough for a 6.5C round to get to 1000yds.  Actually, you should easily get to 1200 yds.  You dont need more velocity since the 6.5c has a fairly high BC.  As such, you get better accuracy from a cut rifled barrel.  24" to 26" is the sweet spot length for the 6.5c.

 

Dont worry about the range finder, now.  That is the last thing you need.  Your priority should go liek this:

 

1. best barrel you can afford.

2. good trigger (I like a 2 stage trigger that has a pull weight adjustment)

3. best glass you can afford with a ranging reticle.  I prefer Mil dots/hash but some like MOA.  Either way, make sure the turrets match the reticle.  There are scopes with Mil dot reticles paired with MOA turrets.  It's retarded and you dont need the added math while trying to range a target.  Also, go with a FFP (first focal plane) scope.

 

Regarding ranging, that is an important skill you need to learn.  You should be able to estimate distance of a known target size using your reticle.  This is why the rangefinder is the last thing to buy.  Learn and become proficient at this skill before relying on a rangefinder.  Electronic devices can and do fail.

 

Why do you want an AR/gas gun for precision rifle?  A gas gun is rarely, if ever, as accurate as a bolt gun due to the design.  The only clear benefit is hte rate of fire for a semi auto.  If you have multiple targets to engage quickly or shoot moving targets, then there is an advantage but at the end of the day, you are trading accuracy for this.

 

If you have your heart set on the large AR, sign up for Aero Precision's email list.  They've been pushing their 308 AR stuff and offer daily discount deals.  Aero makes some quality stuff for a reasonable price.  As you probably know, the rifle you want is a 308 AR with a 6.5c barrel.  Everything else is the same as the 308 (bolt, mags, et al).

 

Lastly, with the 308 AR platform, keep in mind that there is no "mil spec".  Parts from one manufacturer may not fit with another's.  Many times, parts are not interchangeable.  It's not the same as building a .223 AR.  If you don't want to go this route, then perhaps the 6.5G is the way to go and you sacrifice a little distance vs the 6.5C.

 

 

 

Eric

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

Thanks Eric, you've given me lots to think about. Are there any barrel makers that you like with bull barrels under $350 ?

I was thinking of blackholeweaponry they seem to have pretty good accuracy.

[Eric. 9]

Thanks Eric, you've given me lots to think about. Are there any barrel makers that you like with bull barrels under $350 ?

I was thinking of blackholeweaponry they seem to have pretty good accuracy.

There are several good makers.  For either 6.5G or 6.5C AR barrels, I;m kinda partial to Kreiger.

[T Bill 649]

Take a look at a Lilja if your looking at the top drawer companies.

[njJoniGuy 2,133]

I'm a regular at the 600yd matches at Cumberland Riflemen outside Millville (Cumberland County), as well as one of the match officials.

The 2016 season begins on April 2 and 3 (always first weekend of the month) and the entire schedule will be available at http://www.cumberlandmatches.com as soon as the site is updated for next year's season.

We get a lot of NoJersey, NY, DE and PA shooters, as we're the only 600yd range in NJ open to civilians.

Many of our shooters also frequent the 600 and 1000yd matches at Bridgeville DE, the closest 1000yd range to this part of the state.

The Saturday matches are 600yd slow prone, with Sunday being Across The Course (XTC) which is 200yd slow fire unsupported offhand, 200yd rapid fire sitting, 300yd rapid prone, and 600yd slow prone (20 record plus 2 sighters each position)

 

May I suggest you come out to the first match, and even if you don't shoot, check it out.

From the sounds of your first post, it sounds like this is the crowd you want to shoot with.

I personally shoot a left handed AR match rifle in .223

With my 1:8 twist, I'm limited to 80gr Nosler or Sierra SMK, but with a 1:7 or 1:6.5, you can shoot 90's which are much more suited to the 1000 at Bridgeville, especially in a gas gun due to bleeding off some of the gas to operate the action. At 200 and 300, I shoot 69's, and at 600 I shoot 80's

 

As far as triggers go, Geissele is the top of the heap for the AR platform, regardless of caliber.

 

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

Thank you all. IIRC Both the liljas and the kriegers were blanks and it would be about $550 for a finished barrel which is more then I can afford.

[Eric. 9]

Thank you all. IIRC Both the liljas and the kriegers were blanks and it would be about $550 for a finished barrel which is more then I can afford.

Nope. The Lilja and Kreigers are finished barrels. All you have to do is slap it on. Kreigers should be well under $400 for a 6.5G.

 

Ill second the Geissele pick. I run a Hi Speed National DMR.

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

Nope. The Lilja and Kreigers are finished barrels. All you have to do is slap it on. Kreigers should be well under $400 for a 6.5G.

 

Ill second the Geissele pick. I run a Hi Speed National DMR.

 

 

$690 for barrel and bolt

https://secure.wf-api.com/www.precisionfirearms.com/m8/6.5%20Grendel%20Krieger%20Barrel--6-5-grendel-krieger-barrel.html

 

This is $325 but it seems to be a blank (and I want a bull)

 

 

 

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/833900/shilen-drop-in-match-barrel-with-bolt-ar-15-65-grendel-service-rifle-hbar-contour-1-in-9-twist-20-stainless-steel

 

$464 for a shilen 20" with bolt

 

 

$490 from krieger

https://kriegerbarrels.com/srconf

[Eric. 9]

$690 for barrel and bolt

https://secure.wf-api.com/www.precisionfirearms.com/m8/6.5%20Grendel%20Krieger%20Barrel--6-5-grendel-krieger-barrel.html

 

This is $325 but it seems to be a blank (and I want a bull)

 

 

 

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/833900/shilen-drop-in-match-barrel-with-bolt-ar-15-65-grendel-service-rifle-hbar-contour-1-in-9-twist-20-stainless-steel

 

$464 for a shilen 20" with bolt

 

 

$490 from krieger

https://kriegerbarrels.com/srconf

Kreiger:

 

Your Order Summary with Krieger Barrels

Please carefully review the dimensions and services listed below: If you would like to include options and services not listed here or have questions, please call our office at 262-628-8558.

Summary of Order:

Service Rifle Type: AR15 Caliber: 6.5MM Steel: Stainless Steel Contour Type: VARMATCH Overall Length: 24 IN Muzz. Diam.: 0.920 IN Twist Rate: 1-8 Inches Bore Dia: 0.256 Inches Groove Dia: 0.264 Inches Parts: Gas Block, Barrel Extension

 

 

Edit Order

 

Please review Prices & Qtys below:

Item Price* Qty Ext. Price AR15, VARMATCH, 6.5MM $370.00 1 $370.00 Gas Block $0.00 1 $0.00 Barrel Extension $0.00 1 $0.00 Ship & Handle (Estim.): $20.00 1 $20.00 Total Charge: $390.00 1 $390.00

 

24" barrel Varmatch, .920 muzzle(bull), stainless, 1-8 twist, finished chamber and crown, incl gas block.  (A low profile gas block typically runs around $40 bucks extra)  Oh, the $390includes shipping too.

[Schrödinger's cat 87]

Thanks Eric , I think I'll try to get that. Now for the no fun part - saving up ;(

[Heavyopp 167]

 

Ill second the Geissele pick. I run a Hi Speed National DMR.

 

Sign up for Primary Arms email sales flyer --  Right now they have 20% of Geissele -- I think it was black friday where they went to 30%off

 

Just pay attention to their sales -- 20% at almost every holiday sales event with the occasional 30% thrown in 

[Scorpio64 5,163]

Thanks Eric , I think I'll try to get that. Now for the no fun part - saving up ;(

 

I must be in the minority here but I find the saving just as much fun as the buying.  I guess the reason it's fun for me is I get more time to window shop and ask questions, learn more and modify/evolve my design spec.  Sure, throwing $600 at a PSA bargain build kit (everything but the stripped lower) will get you a no brainer rifle.  But what I love is getting the best rifle I can build to my exact specs for the same money.  I just save, wait patiently for a sale and snatch up deals as they come along.

[Eric. 9]

I must be in the minority here but I find the saving just as much fun as the buying. I guess the reason it's fun for me is I get more time to window shop and ask questions, learn more and modify/evolve my design spec. Sure, throwing $600 at a PSA bargain build kit (everything but the stripped lower) will get you a no brainer rifle. But what I love is getting the best rifle I can build to my exact specs for the same money. I just save, wait patiently for a sale and snatch up deals as they come along.

I think many ppl would agree.

 

Or, as the cool kids say... ^^^this