Sota 1,191 Posted March 23, 2018 1987 constructed home on town water supply. Been noticing some rather marked surging when turning on faucets for a while. Bought a water pressure gauge and connected it to my hot water tank's drain. Static pressure after running the faucet for a couple seconds is 60psi. Static pressure AFTER the hot water heater has cycled is 110psi. I hooked the gauge up to the bib outside and am waiting for another hot water tank cycle to occur to see if the pressure spikes again. Regardless, this seems abnormal, and i'm wondering if it didn't contribute to the last water filter unit failing. Thoughts from the "pros" on here? ETA: ran same test connected to outside hose bib... nearly same results: 60psi cold, 100psi after water heater cycle (got interrupted by the furnace turning on which activated the whole house humidifier.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted March 23, 2018 Crack open pressure relief valve on water heater. Carefully!!!! Let me know if you hear air. Only guess I got. Assuming it’s not tankless Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sota 1,191 Posted March 23, 2018 not tankless. 75 gallon bradford white tank circa 2013. pressure release valve comes out with water immediately. was brown for a split second but clear after that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted March 23, 2018 1 minute ago, sota said: not tankless. 75 gallon bradford white tank circa 2013. pressure release valve comes out with water immediately. was brown for a split second but clear after that. Idk bud. Call water company to ck meter. Pretty sure the have a regulator in the meter. Does inlet side of water heater feel warm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sota 1,191 Posted March 23, 2018 at top of tank: hot side 128F cold side 90F at underside of floor joists above tank: hot side 83F cold side 75F cold side is 75F 20 feet away from water tank as well. I have a super fancy infrared thermometer thingie from harbor freight 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted March 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, sota said: at top of tank: hot side 128F cold side 90F at underside of floor joists above tank: hot side 83F cold side 75F cold side is 75F 20 feet away from water tank as well. I have a super fancy infrared thermometer thingie from harbor freight Lol! I think it’s the meter. My best guess. Anything else and I’d have to sleep on it at a holiday inn 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sota 1,191 Posted March 23, 2018 so you're thinking the pressure regulator at the house inlet is the cause? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Howard 538 Posted March 23, 2018 What is the elevation like where you are, is there a water tank that feeds you that is up a good bit higher in elevation than your house? I ask as we have a pressure regulator on the incoming line and if were to go bad I would expect to see the sort of thing you are seeing. Even your low static pressure seems to be very high for residential water service. Suggest you PM Deerslayer, he is an expert on this stuff. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted March 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, sota said: so you're thinking the pressure regulator at the house inlet is the cause? I’m with @Howard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobA 1,235 Posted March 23, 2018 1 hour ago, sota said: Thoughts from the "pros" on here? Bwhahahaha...... Oh, sorry. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sota 1,191 Posted March 23, 2018 @DeerSlayer hope the tagging gets his attention 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeerSlayer 241 Posted March 23, 2018 Someone tagged me?Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeerSlayer 241 Posted March 23, 2018 Do you have a pressure reducing valve on the main at the meter? (60psi is normal for municipal supply residential water service. Pressure will vary at different times of the day due to demand. 80psi is max allowed in any plumbing system in NJ, residential or commercial.) Is there a thermal expansion tank on the cold side of the water heater? If not, you need one. If there is, it probably has a ruptured bladder and needs to be replaced because it's now waterlogged. Shut off the main, relieve all the pressure from the system, and check the air charge on the tank, with a tire pressure gauge. It should be set to your static pressure, which in this case is 60psi. If it's not either add or remove air till it's at 60lbs. Then turn the water back on to the house. Problem solved, where do I send the invoice? You're welcome... lol Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk 6 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeerSlayer 241 Posted March 23, 2018 Bwhahahaha...... Oh, sorry.I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night. I'm a licenced master plumber in NJ. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sota 1,191 Posted March 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, DeerSlayer said: Do you have a pressure reducing valve on the main at the meter? Yes. Also, unchanged at least since we moved in in 2001. Meter was just replaced with some fancy pants digital thing. (60psi is normal for municipal supply residential water service. Pressure will vary at different times of the day due to demand. 80psi is max allowed in any plumbing system in NJ, residential or commercial.) Is there a thermal expansion tank on the cold side of the water heater? If not, you need one. There is not. Got any recommendations for user installable ones, and is there a specific size I should get? Problem solved, where do I send the invoice? You're welcome... lol Donuts, coffee, or shotgun ammo acceptable payment at next shotgun shootout? Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk see red answers. Question is... why am I seeing this problem NOW? As some additional data, the adjuster screw on the pressure regulator turned easily enough, and I was able to back the static pressure down to 50psi after a system "burp"... but as it's been sitting like that for about 10 minutes it's starting to climb and is now over 60psi, without the water heater coming on. I called NJ American Water and they're sending a tech out on wednesday to check things. I mentioned the meter being changed but not the pressure regulator. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted March 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, DeerSlayer said: I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night. I'm a licenced master plumber in NJ. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Why a bladder cold side for stand alone water heater? Jus asken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeerSlayer 241 Posted March 23, 2018 see red answers. Question is... why am I seeing this problem NOW? As some additional data, the adjuster screw on the pressure regulator turned easily enough, and I was able to back the static pressure down to 50psi after a system "burp"... but as it's been sitting like that for about 10 minutes it's starting to climb and is now over 60psi, without the water heater coming on. I called NJ American Water and they're sending a tech out on wednesday to check things. I mentioned the meter being changed but not the pressure regulator.Thermal expansion from the water heater will cause the pressure to climb in the system. Sounds like your PRV is working if it dropped when you adjusted it. The PRV also acts as a back flow prevention device. So when your water heater fires the increased pressure cannot go anywhere. In NJ if you have a Pressure reducing valve on your water main, you MUST by code also have a thermal expansion tank. Get an Extrol ST10 I'm assuming you have an average sized house? 75gal is a good sized water heater. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeerSlayer 241 Posted March 23, 2018 Why a bladder cold side for stand alone water heater? Jus askenThermal expansion tank. It has a bladder inside to absorb the increase in pressure from the appliance. It's code. And it will stop the pressure climb he's having. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sota 1,191 Posted March 23, 2018 yea I upgraded water tank size when it needed replacing, as the old one wouldn't fill my bathroom jacuzzi tub. is there a specific size expansion tank I should get? just find it weird that this "problem" is happening now as opposed to a couple years ago. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zeke 5,504 Posted March 23, 2018 1 minute ago, DeerSlayer said: Thermal expansion tank. It has a bladder inside to absorb the increase in pressure from the appliance. It's code. And it will stop the pressure climb he's having. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Vs regulator to house? Again.. jus asken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sota 1,191 Posted March 23, 2018 and do you mean Amtrol? https://www.supplyhouse.com/Amtrol-140N738-THERM-X-TROL-ST-8-Expansion-Tank Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Howard 538 Posted March 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, DeerSlayer said: Thermal expansion tank. It has a bladder inside to absorb the increase in pressure from the appliance. It's code. And it will stop the pressure climb he's having. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk I told you he would have the answer! Now I have one, when did that become code. I ask as our main has a PRV but no tank. Was that way when we bought the house in 86 and it was build in 73. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeerSlayer 241 Posted March 23, 2018 yea I upgraded water tank size when it needed replacing, as the old one wouldn't fill my bathroom jacuzzi tub. [emoji3] is there a specific size expansion tank I should get? just find it weird that this "problem" is happening now as opposed to a couple years ago.It happens. Get an Extrol ST10 that's the larger of the two screw in tanks. That size works on just about every house. Unless you're living in a 10 bath, 8000 Sq foot mansion. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sota 1,191 Posted March 23, 2018 I was going to ask about that code change as well, as I would have thought my guy who did the water heater install would have said something if it was code in 2013. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeerSlayer 241 Posted March 23, 2018 Vs regulator to house? Again.. jus asken The regulator won't allow water pressure increases to push back to the street. It's like a check valve. So the pressure inside the system increases as a result, and you have issues like relief valves blowing off, or surging coming out of a faucet. With the tank it's like a big cushion for the now heated & expanding water to push into, keeping the static pressure the same in the system. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk I was going to ask about that code change as well, as I would have thought my guy who did the water heater install would have said something if it was code in 2013.2015 code change made it mandatory. The 2009 code was still in effect in 2013 wasn't adopted in that version. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk I was going to ask about that code change as well, as I would have thought my guy who did the water heater install would have said something if it was code in 2013.Was it inspected by the town after it was installed? Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeerSlayer 241 Posted March 23, 2018 and do you mean Amtrol? https://www.supplyhouse.com/Amtrol-140N738-THERM-X-TROL-ST-8-Expansion-Tank Yes it's Amtrol. Extrol is their well tank line. Don't know why I typed extrol... long week. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sota 1,191 Posted March 23, 2018 Ok i'm either an idiot or something else, but I can't find an ST10 anyplace. I can find an ST8 and an ST12 though. Hell I can't even find it on their web site. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeerSlayer 241 Posted March 23, 2018 Ok i'm either an idiot or something else, but I can't find an ST10 anyplace. I can find an ST8 and an ST12 though. Hell I can't even find it on their web site.St12 is correct. They have an 8 and 12 for potable water. 5 and 10 are for heating systems. Again long week lol. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sota 1,191 Posted March 23, 2018 If i'm reading the install sheet right, I need a 3.2gal unit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeerSlayer 241 Posted March 23, 2018 If i'm reading the install sheet right, I need a 3.2gal unit. Following their sizing chart to your house/system size. I always go slightly larger if I'm not 100% sure. Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites