GRIZ

@JohnnyB I saw this back in the 70s. Had a Liberal psychology professor. Was going to give me a D for a course I needed a C for. I told him I needed to talk with him because he said I was stupid. He said I didn't call you stupid and I don't have time for this now.. I said if you're giving me a D you're calling me stupid. Then I grabbed his suit and put his pear shaped body against the wall and said, "If you're giving me a D you're saying I'm stupid". This all started when the professor would say something and I knew a personal experience when the opposite happened. Not trying to sharpshoot him, just trying to learn. He would tell me it didn't happen although I know it did. BLUF I appealed this grade. Wound up with a B. If I did what I did then I would have wound up in jail Fast forward to today. My niece graduated with a BA in psychology in June 2020. Going for her masters now because she knows a BA is crap in the field. She's a smart woman. Told me she tells professors what they want to hear.

Bucky (all the money he has and he never had his teeth fixed) apparently is ignoring Maryland's experience with microstamping. You younger guys Google Bucky Beaver to know what I'm talking about. MD passed a microstamping law in 2000. MDSP was tasked with collecting casings. The MDSP pled to the legislators in 2015 to repeal this law. They had spent 15 years and $5,000,000 collecting over 300,000 cartridge cases. Not one crime was solved with this. The MDSP said they could have used the money for other productive things. Larry Hogan, a Republican, immediately signed the repeal of the microstamping law in 2015. The casings were sold as scrap.. BTW, Hogan also signed the biggest tax cuts in the history of MD. MD seems Democrat but every few terms elects a Republican to bring the state back to its senses. That's what we can use in NJ. That's a start. Too many look at politics as an either or. NJ will self destruct if more Murphys are elected. Fight!!!! FWIW, when I worked in Baltimore, William Donald Schafer was mayor. One of the last old time Democrats. Law and Order guy. Didn't travel in a convoy. One detective drove him in a Buick or Oldsmobile. When they had a rash of bank robberies before Christmas (Cops on the forum will understand this) when the have nots want to have, Schafer started the bank patrol. Two cops with shotguns would randomly stop at banks. The robberies continued. Until the bank patrol stopped at a robbery in progress. Smoked the two bank robbers. The bank robberies stopped.

Let me start by relating an experience from my US Army Officer Advanced Course which started in August 1988. I was the only Vietnam and combat experienced soldier in the class. No I wasn't a special operator, assassin, sniper, or any of that I was a regular soldier. Nothing against my classmates. They just didn't have a war to get involved in and according to what I know, when they did, they all performed admirably. Military people like order. As a result most of them are conservatives. The 88 election was coming up and there was one guy in the class who was going to vote for Dukakis. Everyone bombarded him and convinced him, by his admission, to vote for Bush. Although misguided we all got him to vote for the best candidate. You don't get someone to come over to your side by calling them stupid. Fast forward to today. I showed a meme to a liberal comparing quotes from Teddy Roosevelt (one of my boyhood heroes), JFK (the last real Democrat), Trump, and Biden. The Biden quote was the one from HIS ONLY press conference he's held, where he says "If you want to get something done..." and ends it with, "like to be able to...uh oh...anyway". They zeroed in on "Trump is far from articulate". I said ignore the Trump quote, how does Biden compare to TR and JFK? The response? Yeah, but neither does Trump. I discussed this with my niece who is working on her masters in psychology. Much more professional opinion than mine in this field (Yeah, she voted Trump in 2016 and 2020). She said this is all a sign of Obessive Compulsive Disorder. No matter what the question they turn it against Trump. I have to agree. There are millions of people in this country suffering from OCD in this country. For those who say Trump didn't meet their expectations, you are totally ignorant of American politics. It's not about who gives you everything. It's about who gives you most of what you want. Also any POTUS will really show you how they feel in their 2nd term. They don't have to worry about reelection.

The fixed stock version handles a lot like an M1 Carbine. Not as much power but will work out to 100 yards or farther.

If you haven't stocked up on both long ago you're too late. 100 years ago when I has to do such things a seasoned soldier would carry a roll of TP in a plastic bag (usually from a battery for a PRC77) in one of the outer pockets of his ruck. Spam? I probably ate 500 lbs of that. I liked it. Still do.

I was up in the area yesterday. The smoke was so bad that they also closed Route 70 as it obscured vision.

I went to the FBI Police Firearms Instructor School in the 70s. The instructor had us shoot revolvers with the sights to the left, right, and upside down to prove you can shoot a group no matter where the sights are.

Soldiers can't pack up and leave. I've had crappy accommodations from the Army but almost all of them were understandable given the situation. Those guys and women in DC are, no doubt, getting screwed. If the Adjutant General of DC, Chief National Guard Bureau, Army Chief of Staff. Secretary of the Army, SECDEF, or Commander in Chief gave a crap all that would be corrected. If I were a Commander there I'd be very vocal and not worried about my career. But wtf do I know. I only spent over 40 years associated with the Army. What could I know.

Keep the pistol grip. You don't need anything at the muzzle.

@EdF, go back to my post of 2/26/2021 at 4.37pm. This is what I said. I will apologize for saying you're arguing with yourself. I will not apologize for you asking me to respond to what someone else said.

Soft point is designed to pentrate more than hollow point. Just about every SD round will penetrate leaving an entry and exit wound. I prefer a 125 gr JHP in 357 as a SD round. Traveling faster it expands faster but will still go through.

@EdFI never said those those things you quoted. You did. You're arguing with yourself. Do you do that in front of a mirror? So do you or don't you load more than3 rounds in a firearm? Earlier on you said that's all that's needed. Then you go on to to talk about normal and abnormal self defense conditions.

So you only load 3 rounds into any gun?

I still have 100 rds of 9mm and components to load another 100 rounds.

@plumbshotsam I understand your curiosity about what kind of powder it is and agree with @JohnnyB'assessment. However.... DON'T REUSE IT. Identifying powder by appearance alone is risky business. Sprinkle it on the grass. The high nitrogen content makes it great fertilizer.

There's concern about missed shots by police going off into the community. A good SD round will make an entrance and an exit wound with 12-14" penetration in ballistics gel. Rounds with more penetration are more likely to go off into the community. Ideally the bullet would fall to the ground after making an entrance and exit wound. This is an impossible thing to design. It did happen in NY almost two years ago. The right combination of target size and bullet. BTW, the same round is the one that passed clear through the Empire State Building shooter and hit bystanders. https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2016/05/19/nypd-checking-ammo-after-knifemans-jacket-stops-cops-bullets/amp/ Subsequent investigation showed the bullets found stuck in the guy's jacket had already gone through him and lodged in his jacket. This was discussed on this forum. To answer your question as to how many LEOs are "gun people" I'd say about 10%. They'd be shooting if they sold shoes for a living. They shoot well all the time. Next comes the 20% that really only shoot at quarterly quals and training. They may only drop a few points from maximum score. These people could probably become outstanding shooters if they wanted to. The bulk, 60%, of LEOs probably fall into the "they shoot okay" category. Their qual scores fall between max and barely qualifying scores. Then there's the 10% that barely qualify and some need to shoot the course more than once. These numbers come from my observations while employed by a Federal agency. They were willing to spend money not only for qualification but for training. However, we had task force officers from state, county, and local agencies that shot quals and training with us. Their numbers were about the same.

I am all for people having the means to defend themselves. The problem is many who buy a gun for defense never pursue learning how to use it. I've known many people who've bought guns for SD and never even fired it. I'm not for mandatory training though. Although most of gunfighting is mental I agree most people need to practice. Keep in mind if a bad guy is holding up a store they already have their gun out and most likely pointed in the direction of the victim. 99.99% of us are not going to beat him to the draw. He's already has his gun out. NYPD, who keeps copious records, discovered long ago there was no correlation between how well someone did in a gunfight and how well they did in qualification. Your assertion regarding the qual course that NJ LEOs use is misleading. You say that depending on the department up to 20% misses are allowed. You ponder that that 20% go somewhere into the community. Unless everything changed in the past few days, NJ requires all State, County, and local agencies to use the same qual course with the FBI Q target and score a minimum of 80%. That's 80% in the kill zone outlined inside the silhouette. The kill is a little bit larger than than the A, B, and C zones on a USPSA target. A miss doesn't necessarily go somewhere in the community. It may be a hit in the arm, hip, etc. Higher standards might be required for SWAT folks.

I will agree that a heavy trigger makes it harder to hit something. However if you're good you can shoot well with a 5, 8 (NY1), or 12 pound trigger. Just about every precinct in NYC used to have a range in the basement. Then came the OSHA lead exposure standards. Last count there were only two places for NYPD to shoot. Rodman's Neck and a precinct in Brooklyn. AFAIK NYPD still gives you 50 rds a month for practice and qualify twice a year. A place to shoot is another issue. BTW, the Federal agency I worked for would you 100 rds a month. In practice, because there were many who didn't take it, you got just about all you wanted for practice. It's not how many rounds you shoot. It's what you do with them.

I never said police have some kind of special ability. How good they are depends on how much their agency has ongoing training. When I was on a police department you qualified twice a year. Service gun only. You got to fire 120 rds a year at the department's expense. Working for the Federal government we had a mandatory minumum 4 hours of firearms and tactics training a quarter. It usually wound up to be 6-8 a quarter. So we're talking 16-32 hours a year. Even if you carried only one gun you shot about 1000 rds a year with quals and mandatory exercises. We had great shooters that only shot in training. Very few problem children. You also have to consider that 95% of gunfighting is in your head. Only 5% is the mechanical ability to shoot the gun and hit the target. I got that from Jeff Cooper and I agree with it. I personally know people that shot expert on the range and did horrible in a gunfight. I also know people that just made a qual score and did remarkable in a gunfight. Do you remember the shooting outside the Empire State Building a few years ago. I could Monday morning quarterback some of the tactics used but I won't. Everyone paid attention to the fact that several bystanders were hit by police bullets. Few were aware that after the forensics guys got done all the bullets that hit bystanders had already gone through the bad guy. Gunfighting is light years different than shooting paper. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying proficiency in shooting is not important. It's a small factor in gunfighting though.

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure those Korean shop owners called the police but the police had no one available to respond. I'm not an advocate of taking the law into your own hands. They did what they had to do.

All the chief's concerns are valid. BUT NO ONE ELSE WAS HURT!!! Most people don't like to see someone else harmed. Remember Koreatown during the Rodney King riots. They took care of themselves. Dead bodies were found in the street and no clue who killed them.

@JohnnyB my fingers are so short I have to cock my hand to the right to reach a trigger. As a result my sights are adjusted to the right. Smaller guns I don't have this issue with.

The "B shot" probably vaccinated you against 20 diseases for the rest of your life!!!

I'm sure the Army vaccinated me for that!!!

Yeah @JohnnyB but I have short fingers. The hand and finger muscles were developed long ago in my teens (like 100 years ago) when I was doing Karate and Gung Fu. Helped me learning how to shoot.