Starting a Fight I Probably Shouldn't?

[Babaganoosh 192]

I think the problem is there is nothing we can do to them to hold them liable when they don't approve or deny within 30 days. If we didn't do something they wanted in 30 days they could fine us, they can revoke our driving privledges, they could imprison us but we have ZERO RECOURSE. I think they know that and that is why they do whatever the hell they want.

Hi, you must be new here...Welcome to New Jersey!

 

Semi new to here but not to the antics of NJ.

[BRaptor 68]

No, there is nothing you can really do. There is already a NJ Appellate-level decision that essentially says, they can delay approval of your application well beyond 30 days until they hear back from the SBI and FBI. Basically, take your rights and swallow them.

 

DIANE M. ADLER v. DANIEL LIVAK, Superior Court of NJ, Appellate Division A-4878-96T5

 

Things to note:

 

1) This decision was rendered in 1998, before easy access to NICS via computer.

 

2) The investigating officer was waiting for the FBI to get back to him, which places the delay out of the state's hands.

 

So, I would say this issue is "ripe" for revisiting by the courts under different factual circumstances. Guess what my goal is?

[Babaganoosh 192]

No, there is nothing you can really do. There is already a NJ Appellate-level decision that essentially says, they can delay approval of your application well beyond 30 days until they hear back from the SBI and FBI. Basically, take your rights and swallow them.

 

DIANE M. ADLER v. DANIEL LIVAK, Superior Court of NJ, Appellate Division A-4878-96T5

 

Things to note:

 

1) This decision was rendered in 1998, before easy access to NICS via computer.

 

2) The investigating officer was waiting for the FBI to get back to him, which places the delay out of the state's hands.

 

So, I would say this issue is "ripe" for revisiting by the courts under different factual circumstances. Guess what my goal is?

 

Someone wanna pay for a lawyer for me? Ill go to court. Ha

[BRaptor 68]

Someone wanna pay for a lawyer for me? Ill go to court. Ha

 

Well, I'll have my JD in 9 months, and I don't have a job lined up, yet :cry: .

 

So, instead, I've got a hobby lined up while I collect BHO welfare. :shifty:

[Babaganoosh 192]

No, there is nothing you can really do. There is already a NJ Appellate-level decision that essentially says, they can delay approval of your application well beyond 30 days until they hear back from the SBI and FBI. Basically, take your rights and swallow them.

 

DIANE M. ADLER v. DANIEL LIVAK, Superior Court of NJ, Appellate Division A-4878-96T5

 

Things to note:

 

1) This decision was rendered in 1998, before easy access to NICS via computer.

 

2) The investigating officer was waiting for the FBI to get back to him, which places the delay out of the state's hands.

 

So, I would say this issue is "ripe" for revisiting by the courts under different factual circumstances. Guess what my goal is?

 

 

I don't see where there needed to be a decision by the courts anyway. Like I said before its very cut and dry. They say 30 days after they recieve your application. I don't see that being open to interpretation.

[djg0770 481]

I don't see where there needed to be a decision by the courts anyway. Like I said before its very cut and dry. They say 30 days after they recieve your application. I don't see that being open to interpretation.

 

The law (in general - not just this specific statute) is open to interpretation. Therefore, case law makes all the difference because other cases help judges make interpretations of the law.

 

If you don't believe the law is open to interpretation, then I ask you, what does the Supreme Court do? They certainly do not 'write' laws and yet their rulings have a huge effect on the law specifically and in general. (ie Heller, McDonald, Roe v Wade...)

 

Any lawyer's first step in examining a case requires that s/he examine case law as I am sure Braptor will tell you.

[Babaganoosh 192]

I don't see where there needed to be a decision by the courts anyway. Like I said before its very cut and dry. They say 30 days after they recieve your application. I don't see that being open to interpretation.

 

The law (in general - not just this specific statute) is open to interpretation. Therefore, case law makes all the difference because other cases help judges make interpretations of the law.

 

If you don't believe the law is open to interpretation, then I ask you, what does the Supreme Court do? They certainly do not 'write' laws and yet their rulings have a huge effect on the law specifically and in general. (ie Heller, McDonald, Roe v Wade...)

 

Any lawyer's first step in examining a case requires that s/he examine case law as I am sure Braptor will tell you.

 

 

I don't believe them saying "the licensing authority who shall investigate the same and, unless good cause for the denial thereof appears, shall grant the permit or the identification card, or both, if application has been made therefor, within 30 days from the date of receipt of the application for residents of this State and within 45 days for nonresident applicants."

is open to interpretation.

 

Laws may be interpreted but numbers are not. One plus one ALWAYS equals two. 30 days is 30 days, not 35 days or 40 days or even 90 days. If they said they shall issue in approximately 30 days then that would be open to interpretation. Nor does it state 30 business days or martian days. It says 30 days from the date of receipt. I love to play devils advocate but I cant find a different way to interpret the way they state it.

 

Hell, even if they said that it's 30 days unless they need to investigate something on the application further it would give them an excuse to take longer than 30 days.

 

Sorry man, I don't see how a hard and fast date is open to interpretation. If you get a ticket that has to be paid in 30 days from receipt of the ticket is that open to interpretation? Somehow I doubt it

[Edge 6]

I don't see where there needed to be a decision by the courts anyway. Like I said before its very cut and dry. They say 30 days after they recieve your application. I don't see that being open to interpretation.

 

The law (in general - not just this specific statute) is open to interpretation. Therefore, case law makes all the difference because other cases help judges make interpretations of the law.

 

If you don't believe the law is open to interpretation, then I ask you, what does the Supreme Court do? They certainly do not 'write' laws and yet their rulings have a huge effect on the law specifically and in general. (ie Heller, McDonald, Roe v Wade...)

 

Any lawyer's first step in examining a case requires that s/he examine case law as I am sure Braptor will tell you.

 

 

I don't believe them saying "the licensing authority who shall investigate the same and, unless good cause for the denial thereof appears, shall grant the permit or the identification card, or both, if application has been made therefor, within 30 days from the date of receipt of the application for residents of this State and within 45 days for nonresident applicants."

is open to interpretation.

 

Laws may be interpreted but numbers are not. One plus one ALWAYS equals two. 30 days is 30 days, not 35 days or 40 days or even 90 days. If they said they shall issue in approximately 30 days then that would be open to interpretation. Nor does it state 30 business days or martian days. It says 30 days from the date of receipt. I love to play devils advocate but I cant find a different way to interpret the way they state it.

 

Hell, even if they said that it's 30 days unless they need to investigate something on the application further it would give them an excuse to take longer than 30 days.

 

Sorry man, I don't see how a hard and fast date is open to interpretation. If you get a ticket that has to be paid in 30 days from receipt of the ticket is that open to interpretation? Somehow I doubt it

 

 

Obviously, a case arose regarding the 30/45 day requirement. The case law that exists interprets the commencement of the 34/45 day requirement after all of the file is completed i.e. background check, referals, etc. The courts have set precedent, therefore the 30/45 day requirement dont mean squat.

 

When I had, what I perceived to be a complaint regarding the 30 day time frame, I called Evan Nappens firm, I was advised of the precedent and was told the law firm wouldnt get involved until at the least 90 days after I applied was past.

 

Much codified statute has been challenged and further clarified by the courts who set precedent.

 

Judicial review goes all the way back to Marbury v. Madison wherein John Marshall sets forth who the final arbitor of the law is. In United States v. Nixon, when Nixon refused to respond the the Subpeona Duces Tecum, Nixon found out exactly what John Marshall meant in Marbury.

[BCeagle 12]

Nixon should have responded like Andrew Jackson and said "John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!"

 

Its not a guideline its a hard number and the court has no reason to interpret it. It was put in as a protection. I think the second the 30 days expires from all your informaton being in, you should file suit. If towns get hit with suit after suit they need to pay defend they will get the hint. This is especially true in today's fiscal times. I also think an egregious wait of 6months for a constitutional right is ripe for damages.

[Babaganoosh 192]

 

Its not a guideline its a hard number and the court has no reason to interpret it. It was put in as a protection. I think the second the 30 days expires from all your informaton being in, you should file suit. If towns get hit with suit after suit they need to pay defend they will get the hint. This is especially true in today's fiscal times. I also think an egregious wait of 6months for a constitutional right is ripe for damages.

 

 

Exactly my point!! It clearly states 30 days from receipt. There are no if's, ands, or buts in that statute. Like I said, if you recieved a ticket and payment was due 30 days from the issuing of the ticket it isn't up for debate or interpretation. Just because the court ruled that way doesn't make it right. Oj Simpson was found not guilty remember. It's a hard numer like BCeagle said. A hard number should not be up for interpretation.

[tommy3rd 132]

I was wondering...with all the pro-gun lawyers we have in this state, why hasn't anybody fought this thing? Is it because it's looking like a tremendous uphill battle not worth putting the time and effort into?

[Springfield1911 22]

Clifton??? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!! HAHAHAHA!!! Yea good luck. Six months MINIMUM for FID.

[BRaptor 68]

I was wondering...with all the pro-gun lawyers we have in this state, why hasn't anybody fought this thing? Is it because it's looking like a tremendous uphill battle not worth putting the time and effort into?

 

A lawyer first needs a client who is willing to pay to fight this battle, which can be VERY expensive. I would guesstimate that just to get to the state appellate court level (the level that would most likely feel "comfortable" going against this 1998 precedent), a good lawyer with reasonbly well-researched and well-drafted submissions will cost you at least $7,000 (plus costs). This guess is based on low-ball guesses for research and document preparation times and a guess that the lawyer costs $300/hour for time (which is about right, from what I know).

 

I'm willing to bet that this one will require appeal to NJ Supreme Court (which will uphold the Appellate decision and refuse to interpret the law correctly), THEN the work will start in the Fed. courts and even then, there's no guarantee of changing the precedent.

 

So, why wouldn't a client pay for this?

 

The whole process would take a VERY long time and by then, the FID will have issued or been denied. So, the only motivation is to set precedent for other citizens. BUT that would be a very expensive public service.

 

So, there's little motivation for a client to pay a lawyer to take this on and without a client, a lawyer really can't challenge the law on their own. Thus, the state continues to push the little guy around.

[FFDP82 4]

I was wondering...with all the pro-gun lawyers we have in this state, why hasn't anybody fought this thing? Is it because it's looking like a tremendous uphill battle not worth putting the time and effort into?

 

A lawyer first needs a client who is willing to pay to fight this battle, which can be VERY expensive. I would guesstimate that just to get to the state appellate court level (the level that would most likely feel "comfortable" going against this 1998 precedent), a good lawyer with reasonbly well-researched and well-drafted submissions will cost you at least $7,000 (plus costs). This guess is based on low-ball guesses for research and document preparation times and a guess that the lawyer costs $300/hour for time (which is about right, from what I know).

 

I'm willing to bet that this one will require appeal to NJ Supreme Court (which will uphold the Appellate decision and refuse to interpret the law correctly), THEN the work will start in the Fed. courts and even then, there's no guarantee of changing the precedent.

 

So, why wouldn't a client pay for this?

 

The whole process would take a VERY long time and by then, the FID will have issued or been denied. So, the only motivation is to set precedent for other citizens. BUT that would be a very expensive public service.

 

So, there's little motivation for a client to pay a lawyer to take this on and without a client, a lawyer really can't challenge the law on their own. Thus, the state continues to push the little guy around.

 

It's a shame NJ doesn't have a state-level gun rights organization. Like, for example, say ANJRPC wasn't just a total bullshit fraud organization, they could raise the thousands need to pay a lawyer and "ideal client" for the lawsuit.

[Edge 6]

Nixon should have responded like Andrew Jackson and said "John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!"

 

 

Great quote, but Jackson never said it, it's a myth....................

[KpdPipes 388]

I was wondering...with all the pro-gun lawyers we have in this state, why hasn't anybody fought this thing? Is it because it's looking like a tremendous uphill battle not worth putting the time and effort into?

because if the "Pro Gun" lawyers FOUGHT this type of thing..then they wouldnt have a Specialized field anymore.

[ChrisJM981 924]

Nixon should have responded like Andrew Jackson and said "John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!"

 

 

Great quote, but Jackson never said it, it's a myth....................

A myth just like ANJRPC has a lobbying firm across the street from the State House!

[BRaptor 68]

So, last night I drafted my complaint against the Clifton PD and NJSP to be filed with the Court tomorrow, day 90 post-application.

 

Today (on day 89!), I get a call from Cassie at the Clifton PD, my NJFID is ready and I can pick it up. :!:

 

Half of me is really happy to finally get my FID. The other half is irate that I had to wait 3 months just for the privilege of purchasing ammunition for my 686 from a retailer in the state of NJ.

 

Half of me wants to still try to challenge the current system. But, I don't have the expertise in the area. Plus, any lawyer that represents himself is said to have a fool for a lawyer and a client.

 

So, sadly, and anti-climactically, the "fight" is over before round one.

[Babaganoosh 192]

So, last night I drafted my complaint against the Clifton PD and NJSP to be filed with the Court tomorrow, day 90 post-application.

 

Today (on day 89!), I get a call from Cassie at the Clifton PD, my NJFID is ready and I can pick it up. :!:

 

Half of me is really happy to finally get my FID. The other half is irate that I had to wait 3 months just for the privilege of purchasing ammunition for my 686 from a retailer in the state of NJ.

 

Half of me wants to still try to challenge the current system. But, I don't have the expertise in the area. Plus, any lawyer that represents himself is said to have a fool for a lawyer and a client.

 

So, sadly, and anti-climactically, the "fight" is over before round one.

 

 

Congrats on your FID dude.

[karcirate 1]

So, last night I drafted my complaint against the Clifton PD and NJSP to be filed with the Court tomorrow, day 90 post-application.

 

Today (on day 89!), I get a call from Cassie at the Clifton PD, my NJFID is ready and I can pick it up. :!:

 

Half of me is really happy to finally get my FID. The other half is irate that I had to wait 3 months just for the privilege of purchasing ammunition for my 686 from a retailer in the state of NJ.

 

Half of me wants to still try to challenge the current system. But, I don't have the expertise in the area. Plus, any lawyer that represents himself is said to have a fool for a lawyer and a client.

 

So, sadly, and anti-climactically, the "fight" is over before round one.

 

 

Congrats on your FID dude.

 

Ya, seriously, I am in Clifton, and if I get mine in 3 months, I will be happy. Right now I am 2 months in, but one of my references letters never made it back to where it needs to go, so Kassie resent it last week.