C&R liscense and NJ. specifically m1 carbine

[Guest schutzen-jager]

No realistic legal recourse for the damage?

no help from nra or nj associations - finances badly hurt fighting charges - nappen told me that it was not worth it -

[Texas Shooter 35]

Damn, I sent in my application about six weeks ago thinking I could buy C&R. Still waiting for the license (but not going to push them).

[gimmemym1 34]

I got my c&r about 2 years ago because I thought I would be able to have eligible firearms shipped to my house. Well, when the atf agent came to my house to give me my license she informed me of all the rules and told me the reason people in N J want a c&r is because they think they can have rifles shipped directly to them. Not true. Don't even try it. I still hold my license because it saves me the $15 nics check at gun shows when I buy a c&r firearm and I get discounts at places like midway and other online retailers. I have been thinking lately about returning my license. So far in two years the only visit I've had from the atf was when I initially got my license. And yes, you do have to keep a detailed boundbook of every firearm you buy or sell once you recieve your license. It's not very hard just has to be done and accurate.

[Bob B 103]

 

I've looked into this years ago, from what I've researched, I've found zero benefit of having a C&R living in NJ.

 

 

 

It does exempt you from OGAM though.

 

2C:58-3

 

i.Restriction on number of firearms person may purchase. Only one handgun shall be purchased or delivered on each permit and no more than one handgun shall be purchased within any 30-day period, but this limitation shall not apply to:

 

(2)a collector of handguns as curios or relics as defined in Title 18, United States Code, section 921 (a) (13) who has in his possession a valid Collector of Curios and Relics License issued by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives;

[Eugene40 2]

It does exempt you from OGAM though.

 

As per NJSP Firearms Unit (I personally called them about this issue a month ago and asked them specifically if I can buy more than one handgun a month with a C&R, having the idea of obtaining one):

 

1. C&R does NOT automatically exempt you from OGAM - you need to file that BS application for exemption with NJSP every time you want ro buy more than one handgun a month.

 

2. If you collect guns, NJSP will approve this application, even if you do not have C&R.

 

I know that it contradicts the OGAM law, but hey - this is NJSP. They always liked to make up they own laws and rules, right?

 

P.S. I did apply and was quickly approved for an exemption six months ago, when I needed to pick up a large collection.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

As per NJSP Firearms Unit (I personally called them about this issue a month ago and asked them specifically if I can buy more than one handgun a month with a C&R, having the idea of obtaining one):

 

Maybe they misunderstood the question because of the way you asked it. The way I'm reading the law is that the exemptiom from OGAM only applies if the handguns you are buying ARE curios or relics, as defined by the federal statute. OGAM still applies to non-C&R handguns, even though you hold the license - which is the question they were answering.

 

JMHO / IANAL

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Eugene40 2]

Maybe they misunderstood the question because of the way you asked it. The way I'm reading the law is that the exemptiom from OGAM only applies if the handguns you are buying ARE curios or relics, as defined by the federal statute. OGAM still applies to non-C&R handguns, even though you hold the license - which is the question they were answering.

 

JMHO / IANAL

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

No. I was very specific with the question and received a very specific answer. In sum and substance, and among other things I was told that NJSP makes the rules, period.

 

I welcome forum members to call them and prove me wrong.

[Jon 264]

Here's the thing, Eugene... The NJAG has a record of contradicting NJ Statutes. Unfortunately the only way to challenge these is in court, where I believe you would win, especially given the NJ Statutes specifically state that C&R holders are exempt from OGAM. I know that a C&R holder in NJ has referenced the statute in question to NJSP, and was told he would be arrested if he attempted to buy more than one handgun per month. Good luck.

[Eugene40 2]

Here's the thing, Eugene...

 

Shouldn't it be: "Here's the thing, Bob"?

[Jon 264]

Shouldn't it be: "Here's the thing, Bob"?

 

I must be too young for that reference

[Midwest 28]

With a C & R license, if you let it lapse..you do not need to send the bound book into the ATF. And this may come as a surprise, but not all dealers will accept the C & R license. There are several gun shops around here that refuse the C & R.

[KpdPipes 388]

Here's the thing, Eugene... The NJAG has a record of contradicting NJ Statutes. Unfortunately the only way to challenge these is in court, where I believe you would win, especially given the NJ Statutes specifically state that C&R holders are exempt from OGAM. I know that a C&R holder in NJ has referenced the statute in question to NJSP, and was told he would be arrested if he attempted to buy more than one handgun per month. Good luck.

 

NJ state Supreme Court violates the state constitution all the time.....also they are ALL Screamingly liberal

[Jon 264]

NJ state Supreme Court violates the state constitution all the time.....also they are ALL Screamingly liberal

 

Hooray for being screwed left and right

[Bob B 103]

As per NJSP Firearms Unit (I personally called them about this issue a month ago and asked them specifically if I can buy more than one handgun a month with a C&R, having the idea of obtaining one):

 

1. C&R does NOT automatically exempt you from OGAM - you need to file that BS application for exemption with NJSP every time you want ro buy more than one handgun a month.

 

2. If you collect guns, NJSP will approve this application, even if you do not have C&R.

 

I know that it contradicts the OGAM law, but hey - this is NJSP. They always liked to make up they own laws and rules, right?

 

P.S. I did apply and was quickly approved for an exemption six months ago, when I needed to pick up a large collection.

 

From the Superintendent's letter to Chiefs:

 

Be advised the following handgun transfers are not subject to the purchase of one handgun every thirty days

law and thus the transactions DO NOT require the completion of the new “Application for Multiple Handgun

Purchase Exemption” form (S.P. 015) and the new “Seller/Transferor Certification” form (S.P. 016):

 

Handguns passing to heirs or legatees (N.J.S. 2C:58-3j).

 

A federal, state, or local law enforcement officer or agency purchasing handguns for use by officers

in the actual performance of their law enforcement duties.

 

A collector of handguns as curios or relics as defined in Title 18, United States Code, section

921(a)(13) who has in his possession a valid Collector of Curios and Relics License issued by the

Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

...

 

NJSP OGAM Letter to Chiefs 119147429181.pdf page 1, 2nd paragraph.

 

Looks to me like the person you spoke to doesn't know what he's talking about. No surprise. ...and I don't see anything that says the gun has to be a C&R. The Collector is exempt, not the gun. ...and yes, I know that doesn't mean they won't try to prosecute you anyway.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

. ...and I don't see anything that says the gun has to be a C&R. The Collector is exempt, not the gun. ...

 

Bob, I don't want to split semantic hairs with you, but I think the use of the word as, twice, in the sentence, "A collector of handguns as curios and relics as defined..." pretty much connotes that the handguns being collected, and thus exempt, must meet the definition of "curios & relics" as defined by the federal statute. Almost a moot point as most people don't want the hassle of obtaining a C&R license for the limited benefit you derive from it, here in NJ.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Bob B 103]

Bob, I don't want to split semantic hairs with you, but I think the use of the word as, twice, in the sentence, "A collector of handguns as curios and relics as defined..." pretty much connotes that the handguns being collected, and thus exempt, must meet the definition of "curios & relics" as defined by the federal statute. Almost a moot point as most people don't want the hassle of obtaining a C&R license for the limited benefit you derive from it, here in NJ.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

Bob, I very, very rarely disagree with you. This is one of those times. It might be the only time I've ever disagreed with you. But, here's why...

 

The provision mentioned in the statute defines the collector, not the gun.

 

 

§ 921. Definitions(a)

 

(13) The term “collector” means any person who acquires, holds, or disposes of firearms as curios or relics, as the Attorney General shall by regulation define, and the term “licensed collector” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

 

Consider the previous exemption:

(1)a federal, State or local law enforcement officer or agency purchasing handguns for use by officers in the actual performance of their law enforcement duties;

Here the exemption is clearly limited to handguns for official use.

 

The C&R exemption has no such limitation. If you are a C&R collector, as defined, with a C&R license, then you are exempt. It could say, if you are a collector of bottle caps, as defined, with a license, then you are exempt. No limitation on the type of gun. I realize that, in this state, the AG will likely try to prosecute just to see if they can get a new perversion of the law a la Adler v. Livak, or State v. Pelleteri, but it is clear to me that the law does not limit the collector's exemption to C&R guns only.

 

...and, just to be clear, I'm not recommending to anyone to try it without talking to a competent attorney first.

 

...and the only way to really find out for sure is a test case. Let's hope that OGAM goes away before that happens.

[RedBowTies88 41]

what if you had a relatiave or p.o. box out of state. could you apply for your c&r from the address and have guns sent there?

[KpdPipes 388]

what if you had a relatiave or p.o. box out of state. could you apply for your c&r from the address and have guns sent there?

No, the C&R is YOUR license..at YOUR home of record.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Quote

 

 

§ 921. Definitions(a)

 

(13) The term “collector” means any person who acquires, holds, or disposes of firearms as curios or relics, as the Attorney General shall by regulation define, and the term “licensed collector” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

 

The AG defines it here, "....A collector of handguns as curios or relics as defined in Title 18, United States Code, section 921(a)(13) who has in his possession a valid Collector of Curios and Relics License issued by the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives."

 

The collector of non-C&R firearms has the option of using the standard OGAM exemption forms.

 

This may be one of those things where we have to agree to disagree and the likliehood that a test case will ever settle the question is about nil.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Bob B 103]

Quote

 

 

§ 921. Definitions(a)

 

(13) The term “collector” means any person who acquires, holds, or disposes of firearms as curios or relics, as the Attorney General shall by regulation define, and the term “licensed collector” means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.

 

The AG defines it here, "....A collector of handguns as curios or relics as defined in Title 18, United States Code, section 921(a)(13) who has in his possession a valid Collector of Curios and Relics License issued by the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives."

 

The collector of non-C&R firearms has the option of using the standard OGAM exemption forms.

 

This may be one of those things where we have to agree to disagree and the likliehood that a test case will ever settle the question is about nil.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

Okay... agree to disagree. ...and we didn't even call each other any names. Is that allowed?

[Eugene40 2]

From the Superintendent's letter to Chiefs:

 

 

 

NJSP OGAM Letter to Chiefs 119147429181.pdf page 1, 2nd paragraph.

 

Looks to me like the person you spoke to doesn't know what he's talking about. No surprise. ...and I don't see anything that says the gun has to be a C&R. The Collector is exempt, not the gun. ...and yes, I know that doesn't mean they won't try to prosecute you anyway.

 

Thank you for the link to this letter. It makes it quite clear now. It still leaves the issue of NJSP FU staff making up their own sh*t open, but at least this is something that can be printed out and shown to the FFL, while buying guns. The only thing I wish' was there - is a NJSP letterhead, 'cause the format this letter is in now can be perceived as a homemade fake by a sales person in the store.

 

Is there a way to obtain a pdf scan of the paper version of this letter - the one with actual signatue and on official stationary?

 

Or may be one of the FFL forum members can request a same letter addressed to them as a clarification on OGAM?

 

Thanks,

 

Eugene.

[Eugene40 2]

And another question...

 

What rights will C & R give to ATF anf NJSP in terms of entering your house? How often can they inspect you? What is the inspection consists of? Is there a limitation where they can go in your house (i.e. if the guns are in the safe in the basement, can they go to your bedroom on the second floor?)? Do you as a collector have an option of showing them your bound book and/or guns in, let's say, your local police station, rather than letting them into your house?

[Bob B 103]

Thank you for the link to this letter. It makes it quite clear now. It still leaves the issue of NJSP FU staff making up their own sh*t open, but at least this is something that can be printed out and shown to the FFL, while buying guns. The only thing I wish' was there - is a NJSP letterhead, 'cause the format this letter is in now can be perceived as a homemade fake by a sales person in the store.

 

Is there a way to obtain a pdf scan of the paper version of this letter - the one with actual signatue and on official stationary?

 

Or may be one of the FFL forum members can request a same letter addressed to them as a clarification on OGAM?

 

Thanks,

 

Eugene.

 

That letter is a court document. It has the case number and the document number on the top, so it can be confirmed.

 

If you are thinking about making multiple purchases as a C&R holder without submitting an exemption, I wouldn't do it, even if the language seems clear. You don't want to be the test case.

[Midwest 28]

And another question...

 

What rights will C & R give to ATF anf NJSP in terms of entering your house? How often can they inspect you? What is the inspection consists of? Is there a limitation where they can go in your house (i.e. if the guns are in the safe in the basement, can they go to your bedroom on the second floor?)? Do you as a collector have an option of showing them your bound book and/or guns in, let's say, your local police station, rather than letting them into your house?

 

 

The ATF can inspect you once a year, although that is far and few between with an C&R. Some have stated that they have been licensed for decades and have never been inspected. If they do inspect, generally in most cases they just want to see your bound book. They will make an appointment to schedule a visit.

 

You can have the option of going down to the field office with your bound book. In addition, If they wish to look at your C & R firearms that you bought with the license then you must comply. However in most cases it will be just the bound book in which they will have an interest in.

 

Generally once you apply for a C & R you wait three to eight weeks and get the license. The ATF does not normally have pre-interviews before issuing the license in most states for a 03 C & R FFL.*

 

*Pre-interviews HAVE been reported in the NY metropolitan area around Nassau and Suffolk County NY and NJ as some have reported..... Normally the ATF does not conduct pre-interviews in most states for the FFL 03 C & R license.

 

 

A regular FFL 01, 02 WILL have pre-interviews, and pre inspection and compliance with local laws and ordinances before they issue the license.

[Dan 177]

And another question...

What rights will C & R give to ATF anf NJSP in terms of entering your house? How often can they inspect you? What is the inspection consists of? Is there a limitation where they can go in your house (i.e. if the guns are in the safe in the basement, can they go to your bedroom on the second floor?)? Do you as a collector have an option of showing them your bound book and/or guns in, let's say, your local police station, rather than letting them into your house?

 

From what I gather, you can make an appointment at the local BATF office whereever that is to show them your bound book. They can request that they see some or all of the firearms, and you would have to make another appointment for that. NJ it is more complicated as there are no travel exemptions for HG's to take them to the BATF office to show the agent. So you are kinda stuck letting them in your house. They can't just bust down your door without a warrant, but if you refuse to let them in, they could come back with a nice no-knock warrant along with the NJSP.

 

As I said before, any benefits a C&R can afford someone in NJ are pretty much washed out.

 

Detractors

- You have to be listed as a gun dealer in NJ, and most likely be subject to business rules, taxes, and municipal codes, etc.

- You can't have guns mailed to you

- You MIGHT be able to bypass OGAM, but could wind up spending time and money in court while you prove you were right

- You are open to yearly inspections

- You are open to being accused of being an unlicensed dealer at the federal level, where you would need a different FFL type for buying and selling. This is compounded by the fact that you need to be listed as a gun dealer in NJ.

- You have to keep a bound book of all your transactions, which can be subject to a fine tooth comb inspection yearly.

 

Benefits?

- You MIGHT get discounts from certain dealers, but it seems many do not honor C&R for these purposes. Makes sense as they are looking to attract high volume dealers to sell to, not someone buying one or two guns looking for a discount.

- Any others? Maybe save on transfer fees, I'm not even sure how. I suppose if you go out of state and purchase face to face.

[Eugene40 2]

I don't really see any benefits applying for C&R. And a lot of detractors. Thank you for the clarification.