The NJ2AS Sues The State Police

[PK90 3,573]

Do you not already have the most recent copy of the NJSP Firearm Guidebook?

 

If so, why is it necessary to sue for another copy?

 

Why not proceed to the next step of your operation?

[Shane45 807]

Paul, they would not release a copy, thus the suit. Request for said copy was denied.

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

Do you not already have the most recent copy of the NJSP Firearm Guidebook?

 

If so, why is it necessary to sue for another copy?

 

Why not proceed to the next step of your operation?

 

No, we do not have the most recent copy. Part of the reason for the suit is to challenge the entire concept that Christie Executive Order #47 can somehow TRUMP an individual's right to access documents that SHOULD be publicly available. This suit will test that assumption. We believe that it will help to set a precedent for FUTURE requests for information. Trust me, this has been well thought out. There is a reason why we are doing the things we are doing in the order we are doing them in. Not that we aren't still learning as we go along, but we have no intention of wasting resources. There is a rational reason for all of this. I like the fact that you asked. It is important that we know what you are thinking. Always feel free to ask questions and make suggestions. If *WE* had all the answers - we would all be walking around today with the ability to protect our own lives, and the lives of our loved ones. We are going to FIND those answers if it is humanly possible, but this is part of the journey toward that destination.

 

I hope that helps to explain the situation a little better. If not, please let me know and I will try to answer your questions. Thank you.

[The Dark Knight 11]

Since the police, aren't hiding anything, I'm sure they wouldn't mind us seeing what's in the book, right? I mean, that's what they'd say to us.

[mrjam2jab 9]

So...I'll ask the "simple" question....I read thru and didn't see it already.

 

If they have this super secret book that TELLS them what to do with applications....why are there variables from one town to the next?

[Krdshrk 3,878]

Since the police, aren't hiding anything, I'm sure they wouldn't mind us seeing what's in the book, right? I mean, that's what they'd say to us.

That's not what they said when they refused to release it.

 

So...I'll ask the "simple" question....I read thru and didn't see it already.

 

If they have this super secret book that TELLS them what to do with applications....why are there variables from one town to the next?

 

Exactly - that's stage 2!

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

Since the police, aren't hiding anything, I'm sure they wouldn't mind us seeing what's in the book, right? I mean, that's what they'd say to us.

 

:-) FUNNY!

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

So...I'll ask the "simple" question....I read thru and didn't see it already.

 

If they have this super secret book that TELLS them what to do with applications....why are there variables from one town to the next?

 

My guess would be that the cities, towns and municipalities that are not following procedures would paraphrase "Blazing Saddles" as follows:

 

"Guidebook, we don't need no stinking guidebook"

 

But seriously, they aren't following the state mandates as written in the firearms statutes, why should we expect them to follow what is written in the State Police Guidebook?

[Bob B 103]

 

Exactly - that's stage 2!

[The Dark Knight 11]

The biggest mistake of all is the fact that local towns even have their hands in the cookie jar still. There is really no good reason why the local municipality needs to be involved literally every single time someone buys a handgun or applies for an FID card.

 

Back in the day perhaps it could be justified, before the internet and NICS and the digital age, maybe the detective sending a letter to people to see the "applicant's good character" made sense but there is no reason it should still exist in the modern world.

 

I think that the guide book, compared to what local towns are doing, should be used to make the case politically/legislatively that the local towns are incompetent, unnecessary, undue interference with the permit process. The fact that YEARS after OGAM passed some local towns still can't get it right should be proof enough. Permits should be processed from the applicant directly to NJSP and back. If the local towns want to keep tabs on how many guns are in their town, let them get that info from the database.

 

The local town is nothing more than the incompetent middle manager at work. You know, the guy who thinks he knows what the hell he's talking about and messes everything up until the real boss shows up to sort out the mess. It's time we laid that guy off.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

If they have this super secret book that TELLS them what to do with applications....why are there variables from one town to the next?

 

 

Most of the variables are a result of the local PD being empowered to do an "investigation". Most of the investigatory process is spelled out exactly in the guide (what data bases are to be checked, etc), and the amazing thing about it is that most of the "investigation" is to be done at the time you turn in the application - while you are still present. However, there is enough "wiggle room" in what constitutes an investigation that all the PD's use this to hide behind when they get called on procedures.

 

Here are some of my pet peeves:

We all know about the 30 day statutory completion requirement, just as we all know about the court case that pretty much gutted that law. However, IIRC, it was because the local PD could not be held accountable for the length of time it took to get the FBI background check back and the court started the 30 day clock from the receipt of the info at the local PD. So where is the accountability? How do we know when the request was submitted and when the info was returned. This is the electronic age and background checks are more a matter of pressing buttons than anything else. We need transparency in the process. Some kind of on-line tracking mechanism that shows receipt of app at the local PD and then a checklist of when it was sent out, when the results were returned, etc., so we can keep tabs.

 

I know the reality is a manpower and cost issue, but PD's that limit when they will accept applications, and worse when you can get the paperwork (I know that a lot of it is on-line, but the only place you can get a 212A request is at the PD) just burns me up. At the very least they should accept completed apps at anytime - afterall, PD's do operate 24/7. Of course if we are going to hold their feet to the fire and insure that those items of the investigation that are to be done during our presence are actually done, then this becomes more difficult.

 

There is just so much room for improvement with this system, that we would be further ahead scrapping it and starting with a clean sheet, taking into account today's technology. Which to my way of thinking means we walk into a gun store, pick the gun we want (long gun or handgun), show our drivers license, fill out the 4473, wait while NICS is called, pay and walk out with our purchase. Why should it be anymore complicated than that?

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[LorenzoS 100]

Bob, remember that the real goal of the current regulation is specifically to NOT process the applications efficiently. The goal is to prevent as many legal firearm purchases as possible by making it inconvenient and time consuming so people will just not bother. The beauty part is if people complain, they get to pretend it's just unfortunate bureaucratic backlog and manpower issues. Oh and we are just slow civil servants after all.

 

Imagine using that excuse regarding permits for you to read a book ...

[Z71 4]

I found a link for a firearm applicant investigative guide book refresher course given by the njsp to local pd's....sitting in on that would prove interesting i bet...My link

[PK90 3,573]

Interesting find. Thanks.

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

The biggest mistake of all is the fact that local towns even have their hands in the cookie jar still. There is really no good reason why the local municipality needs to be involved literally every single time someone buys a handgun or applies for an FID card.

 

Back in the day perhaps it could be justified, before the internet and NICS and the digital age, maybe the detective sending a letter to people to see the "applicant's good character" made sense but there is no reason it should still exist in the modern world.

 

I think that the guide book, compared to what local towns are doing, should be used to make the case politically/legislatively that the local towns are incompetent, unnecessary, undue interference with the permit process. The fact that YEARS after OGAM passed some local towns still can't get it right should be proof enough. Permits should be processed from the applicant directly to NJSP and back. If the local towns want to keep tabs on how many guns are in their town, let them get that info from the database.

 

The local town is nothing more than the incompetent middle manager at work. You know, the guy who thinks he knows what the hell he's talking about and messes everything up until the real boss shows up to sort out the mess. It's time we laid that guy off.

 

I agree that it is an unnecessary additional layer of bureaucracy. We would love to get it boiled down to a simple NICS check, but every time I say that, someone tells me I need to cut back on my meds. :-)

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

Most of the variables are a result of the local PD being empowered to do an "investigation". Most of the investigatory process is spelled out exactly in the guide (what data bases are to be checked, etc), and the amazing thing about it is that most of the "investigation" is to be done at the time you turn in the application - while you are still present. However, there is enough "wiggle room" in what constitutes an investigation that all the PD's use this to hide behind when they get called on procedures.

 

Here are some of my pet peeves:

We all know about the 30 day statutory completion requirement, just as we all know about the court case that pretty much gutted that law. However, IIRC, it was because the local PD could not be held accountable for the length of time it took to get the FBI background check back and the court started the 30 day clock from the receipt of the info at the local PD. So where is the accountability? How do we know when the request was submitted and when the info was returned. This is the electronic age and background checks are more a matter of pressing buttons than anything else. We need transparency in the process. Some kind of on-line tracking mechanism that shows receipt of app at the local PD and then a checklist of when it was sent out, when the results were returned, etc., so we can keep tabs.

 

I know the reality is a manpower and cost issue, but PD's that limit when they will accept applications, and worse when you can get the paperwork (I know that a lot of it is on-line, but the only place you can get a 212A request is at the PD) just burns me up. At the very least they should accept completed apps at anytime - afterall, PD's do operate 24/7. Of course if we are going to hold their feet to the fire and insure that those items of the investigation that are to be done during our presence are actually done, then this becomes more difficult.

 

There is just so much room for improvement with this system, that we would be further ahead scrapping it and starting with a clean sheet, taking into account today's technology. Which to my way of thinking means we walk into a gun store, pick the gun we want (long gun or handgun), show our drivers license, fill out the 4473, wait while NICS is called, pay and walk out with our purchase. Why should it be anymore complicated than that?

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

 

The short answer is - it shouldn't be. We will talk with our friendly legislators and see if there is any chance in hades that we can get the NJ Division of State Police to put processing updates online. I do NOT want you to hold your breath (unless your lady particularly enjoys the color BLUE). :-)

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

Bob, remember that the real goal of the current regulation is specifically to NOT process the applications efficiently. The goal is to prevent as many legal firearm purchases as possible by making it inconvenient and time consuming so people will just not bother. The beauty part is if people complain, they get to pretend it's just unfortunate bureaucratic backlog and manpower issues. Oh and we are just slow civil servants after all.

 

Imagine using that excuse regarding permits for you to read a book ...

 

So TRUE!

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

I found a link for a firearm applicant investigative guide book refresher course given by the njsp to local pd's....sitting in on that would prove interesting i bet...My link

 

Yeah, I already checked it out. "Civilians Need Not Apply"!

[Dan 177]

Yeah, I already checked it out. "Civilians Need Not Apply"!

 

Should say :

For State Official Overlords only....No serfs allowed

[Dan 177]

I agree that it is an unnecessary additional layer of bureaucracy. We would love to get it boiled down to a simple NICS check, but every time I say that, someone tells me I need to cut back on my meds. :-)

 

I don't think that is an unreasonable goal to go after. My opinion we should be aiming for State ID (like a DL license or something similar) + NICS check at time of purchase. Many states are like this, and is all that is needed. Anything else is pure and simple unconstitutional bureaucratic obstacles designed to impede or discourage exercising one's 2A rights.

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

Should say :

For State Official Overlords only....No serfs allowed

 

Now that's FUNNY right there!!!

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

I don't think that is an unreasonable goal to go after. My opinion we should be aiming for State ID (like a DL license or something similar) + NICS check at time of purchase. Many states are like this, and is all that is needed. Anything else is pure and simple unconstitutional bureaucratic obstacles designed to impede or discourage exercising one's 2A rights.

 

You won't get an argument from *ME*, Dan. We always try for the "brass ring", but we also have to operate under the system as it exists as we go round and round on the carousel. I am pretty sure it would take a legislative change to accomplish what we BOTH want. We are having those discussions with legislator as is the ANJRPC and others.

 

Bob may want to weigh in on this as well.

 

While we work for legislative changes, we still need to at least *TRY* to obtain some relief for those who are being processed incorrectly under the existing statutes. I think you would agree.

[Dan 177]

You won't get an argument from *ME*, Dan. We always try for the "brass ring", but we also have to operate under the system as it exists as we go round and round on the carousel. I am pretty sure it would take a legislative change to accomplish what we BOTH want. We are having those discussions with legislator as is the ANJRPC and others.

 

Bob may want to weigh in on this as well.

 

While we work for legislative changes, we still need to at least *TRY* to obtain some relief for those who are being processed incorrectly under the existing statutes. I think you would agree.

 

I 100% agree with you, wasn't being argumentative, simply preaching to the choir.

Baby steps.

[Bob B 103]

Bob may want to weigh in on this as well.

 

While we work for legislative changes, we still need to at least *TRY* to obtain some relief for those who are being processed incorrectly under the existing statutes. I think you would agree.

 

Two avenues of approach to the same objective.

[halbautomatisch 60]

I agree that it is an unnecessary additional layer of bureaucracy. We would love to get it boiled down to a simple NICS check, but every time I say that, someone tells me I need to cut back on my meds. :-)

This argument (for getting rid of the permit system) really needs to be presented to the general public as a grossly wasteful, needless, redundant, antiquated system that is cost tax payers a small fortune. We need to express that this system is a waste of precious police resources in tough economic times. Your town is losing a lot of money processing these applications, the $18 goes to the NJSP, the town only gets the $2 per permit, which is not even close to cost. Once NICS went on line, this system became totally obsolete.

 

Most non gun owners aren't going to care about the hoops they make us jump though, but they will understand the waste involved when we explain that these backround checks are being done at least twice for each purchase.

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

I 100% agree with you, wasn't being argumentative, simply preaching to the choir.

Baby steps.

 

Oh, I definitely understood your point and decided to sing a hymn to go along with your sermon.

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

This argument (for getting rid of the permit system) really needs to be presented to the general public as a grossly wasteful, needless, redundant, antiquated system that is cost tax payers a small fortune. We need to express that this system is a waste of precious police resources in tough economic times. Your town is losing a lot of money processing these applications, the $18 goes to the NJSP, the town only gets the $2 per permit, which is not even close to cost. Once NICS went on line, this system became totally obsolete.

 

Most non gun owners aren't going to care about the hoops they make us jump though, but they will understand the waste involved when we explain that these backround checks are being done at least twice for each purchase.

 

I totally agree and we *DO* try to incorporate this argument when we speak to Legislators and non gun owners. Right now our number one responsibility is to increase the membership to the point that it becomes more and more difficult for people (especially Legislators) to ignore us. But frankly, it is up to ALL of us, not just the NJ2AS members to talk to our friends, family and neighbors about the issue. If they hear it enough times from enough people, perhaps they will get the point.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

 

 

Most non gun owners aren't going to care about the hoops they make us jump though, but they will understand the waste involved when we explain that these backround checks are being done at least twice for each purchase.

 

That's a good point, I really think this should be a news story that brings it out to the general public who are mostly unaware of the issue.

 

Would also be good to provide requirements of a lot of other states as a point of reference on how bad it is in NJ compared to most of the country. I only say the comparison NJ vs, Other States to open peoples eyes on what it's like in most of the USA and how ridiculous our laws are and that they do nothing to prevent crime.

 

Even people who may not want to own a firearm can understand this is a waste of your, theirs and my money.

 

Harry

[halbautomatisch 60]

Frank, another thought for you.

 

Have you ever considered getting some dealers together to sue the state under the Interstate Commerce Clause? The point being that all this blatantly unnecessary bureaucracy (as well as OGAM) and the major delays it causes with people getting permits is severely interfering with an FFL's ability to conduct business selling a legal product. This would force the state to explain why this antiquated permit system is still necessary now that we have NICS and why it takes months in many towns to get permits. I think the state would have trouble making a rational argument to support our current system.

[Frank Jack Fiamingo 58]

Frank, another thought for you.

 

Have you ever considered getting some dealers together to sue the state under the Interstate Commerce Clause? The point being that all this blatantly unnecessary bureaucracy (as well as OGAM) and the major delays it causes with people getting permits is severely interfering with an FFL's ability to conduct business selling a legal product. This would force the state to explain why this antiquated permit system is still necessary now that we have NICS and why it takes months in many towns to get permits. I think the state would have trouble making a rational argument to support our current system.

 

Actually, we have. I don't want to give away too much of the strategy at this point, only because we want to develop a focus that will accomplish this goal in the most efficient manner possible. As you might imagine, there are a number of possible ways to initiate this approach. Our legislative committee chair has come up with a unique idea that is likely to result in a great deal of cooperation from within the sector you refer to. At this point in time, our resources are completely focused on our current lawsuit against the NJ Division of State Police. This case should be decided relatively quickly. In the meantime, we are developing plans for the next strike. The approach you suggested is definitely being strongly considered.

 

If you are in a position to help us with any portion of this, please contact me directly in a PM here or at our forum on www.nj2as.com or email me at [email protected]. We can use all the help we can get. Your suggestion is excellent. We need people like you to both make suggestions, and help us to implement them. Anything you can do would be GREATLY appreciated. One of the things we desperately need is someone who is willing to act as a liaison with the retailers, and FFL's. We are preparing the message, but we are going to need a committee of people to deliver and promote it, and to coordinate the inevitable activities associated with directing it on an ongoing basis. It obviously takes some organizational ability and some leadership skills, but keep in mind, only a few short months ago, I was a retired Computer Consultant. Believe me, if I can do this, I am certain that many people can.

 

Please let me know if you are interested, and thank you for suggesting this.