NJ legal?

[Dan 177]

Good info Glenn. I doubt the state will appeal this just as they didn't in NJ v Robert Merrill over the MAK90.

 

The unfortunate thing is these types of cases may be going on all over the state, with the state loosing over the same reasons and we either a) don't know about it, or b) fail to capitalize on it. I sure hope someone knows all these cases, so when the time comes to challenge the NJ AWB, they can be used as examples.

[Zed's_Dead 16]

Good info Glenn. I doubt the state will appeal this just as they didn't in NJ v Robert Merrill over the MAK90.

 

The unfortunate thing is these types of cases may be going on all over the state, with the state loosing over the same reasons and we either a) don't know about it, or b) fail to capitalize on it. I sure hope someone knows all these cases, so when the time comes to challenge the NJ AWB, they can be used as examples.

 

The state can't appeal a "not guilty". It would violate the "double jeapordy" protections of the fifth amendment.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

sent him an email.

 

From me: "Do you happen to have the public records from the case you just did with the “adjustable” stock? Theres discussion on the message boards and if I could post them, that would be awesome."

 

From him:

 

"Glenn,

 

I do not. The decision is only valid in Cumberland Co. if the State decides to not appeal. Also, the AG can give an expaned definition of "telescoping" that would kill the peoples (jury) decision that the law was vague or whatever their reasoning was. It was a jury nullification of that portion of the law. Very interesting on what the people had to say about the law.

 

I seem to be the prosecution's worst enemy lately. They have had it one sided for years and then I come along and give a balanced opposing viewpoint and their case falls apart."

 

He gave me permission to copy the email

 

Not very helpful at all... it was a public hearing was it not? We need to know some of the case details here like:

-What kind of stock/rifle?

-Why was the person brought up on charges?

-We're the firearms returned to the defendant?

 

It would also be nice to get a ballpark estimate for how much the legal defense cost. :-/

[Zed's_Dead 16]

Look at this thread http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/24703-magpul-ubrdoes-this-need-to-be-pinned/page__pid__326505__st__40#entry326505

 

More info there.

[Dan 177]

The state can't appeal a "not guilty". It would violate the "double jeapordy" protections of the fifth amendment.

 

Good point, can't be tried twice for the same crime.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Good point, can't be tried twice for the same crime.

But they can "clarify" parts of the law that the defendants used as a defense. Telescoping to me is actually more of a better description then adjustable stock. Telescoping means to me, something that can be pushed in or pulled out(just like you would do on a telescope), adjustable can mean damn near anything. I'm surprised they were able to win that case, the definition of telescoping is pretty clear.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

But they can "clarify" parts of the law that the defendants used as a defense. Telescoping to me is actually more of a better description then adjustable stock. Telescoping means to me, something that can be pushed in or pulled out(just like you would do on a telescope), adjustable can mean damn near anything. I'm surprised they were able to win that case, the definition of telescoping is pretty clear.

 

Not really. A stock on an M4 Carbine is designed for the express purpose of being adjustable. It has multiple positions to meet a certain length of pull designed for a wide variety of users.

 

I'd love to have an adjustable stock so my gf can shoot my AR more easily.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

Not really. A stock on an M4 Carbine is designed for the express purpose of being adjustable. It has multiple positions to meet a certain length of pull designed for a wide variety of users.

 

I'd love to have an adjustable stock so my gf can shoot my AR more easily.

Yes but "adjustable" is very vague in that it doesn't explain what is adjustable... other then some part of the stock is adjustable... it could be an adjustable cheek pad, or support or telescoping adjustable. If you look up the definition of telescoping, you will see that you def. of adjustable stock meets that criteria.

 

 

 

verb /ˈteləˌskōp/ 

telescoped, past participle; telescoped, past tense; telescopes, 3rd person singular present; telescoping, present participle

 

Cause (an object made of concentric tubular parts) to slide into itself, so that it becomes smaller

 

Be capable of sliding together in this way

- five steel sections that telescope into one another

 

Crush (a vehicle) by the force of an impact

 

Condense or conflate so as to occupy less space or time

 

 

I'm not saying adjustable is bad thing to call an adjustable stock, it is in fact adjustable, but the adjusting movement is telescoping. Some companies have even refereed to the movement as telescoping and advertise stock as telescoping. My only point is that a sliding stock which adjusts to different lengths is telescoping.

Do agree with the law? hell no, i think all the AWB laws give stupid a new meaning.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Yes but "adjustable" is very vague in that it doesn't explain what is adjustable... other then some part of the stock is adjustable... it could be an adjustable cheek pad, or support or telescoping adjustable. If you look up the definition of telescoping, you will see that you def. of adjustable stock meets that criteria.

 

 

 

verb /ˈteləˌskōp/ 

telescoped, past participle; telescoped, past tense; telescopes, 3rd person singular present; telescoping, present participle

 

Cause (an object made of concentric tubular parts) to slide into itself, so that it becomes smaller

 

Be capable of sliding together in this way

- five steel sections that telescope into one another

 

Crush (a vehicle) by the force of an impact

 

Condense or conflate so as to occupy less space or time

 

 

I'm not saying adjustable is bad thing to call an adjustable stock, it is in fact adjustable, but the adjusting movement is telescoping. Some companies have even refereed to the movement as telescoping and advertise stock as telescoping. My only point is that a sliding stock which adjusts to different lengths is telescoping.

Do agree with the law? hell no, i think all the AWB laws give stupid a new meaning.

 

To me, telescoping is the equivalent to a folding stock, where you can slide it all the way into the gun shortening it to where it's not functional or in the way. Similar to an MP5 Navy.

 

While an AR-15 stock uses a telescoping feature, at it's minimum length, it's still a stock.

[vladtepes 1,060]

To me, telescoping is the equivalent to a folding stock, where you can slide it all the way into the gun shortening it to where it's not functional or in the way. Similar to an MP5 Navy.

 

While an AR-15 stock uses a telescoping feature, at it's minimum length, it's still a stock.

 

 

you are defining something that has no definition.. if a combination of words has no clear definition in the law itself.. it is only logical to define the individual words and draw a logical conclusion...

 

telescoping - moving in and out (in the same manor as a telescope)

 

stock - portion of the rifle attached to the rear that allows the weapon to be fired from the shoulder

 

 

you can say telescoping stock means I can not have a stock that goes more than ten inches of adjustment.. OR you can say it means the stock can not be pink... but at the end of the day I have to agree with the other posts.. telescoping stock is pretty clear... a full stock (not just buttplate, cheek riser, etc..) that has the ability to move in and out as a telescope moves..

 

but he he was innocent.. good for him..

[DevsAdvocate 112]

you are defining something that has no definition.. if a combination of words has no clear definition in the law itself.. it is only logical to define the individual words and draw a logical conclusion...

 

telescoping - moving in and out (in the same manor as a telescope)

 

stock - portion of the rifle attached to the rear that allows the weapon to be fired from the shoulder

 

 

you can say telescoping stock means I can not have a stock that goes more than ten inches of adjustment.. OR you can say it means the stock can not be pink... but at the end of the day I have to agree with the other posts.. telescoping stock is pretty clear... a full stock (not just buttplate, cheek riser, etc..) that has the ability to move in and out as a telescope moves..

 

but he he was innocent.. good for him..

 

So by that logic, a UBR is ok?

[vladtepes 1,060]

So by that logic, a UBR is ok?

 

 

technically? maybe? since technically there is no tube within a tube collapsing into itself.. it is a stock that slides on a track.. it is adjustable.. but does not collapse onto itself.. since NJ law does not clearly define the term "telescoping stock" we must assume they mean a stock that collapses into itself.. which the UBR is clearly not.. I am a fan of reading the law as it is written and assume nothing.. the law says telescope.. specifically.. the law could have said collapsible.. but it does not.. granted it comes close to definition 2 (to make more compact..) but the whole word seems to revolve around the mechanisms that are utilized within a "telescope"...

tel·e·scope (tl-skp)

n.

1. An arrangement of lenses or mirrors or both that gathers visible light, permitting direct observation or photographic recording of distant objects.

2. Any of various devices, such as a radio telescope, used to detect and observe distant objects by their emission, transmission, reflection, or other interaction with invisible radiation.

v. tel·e·scoped, tel·e·scop·ing, tel·e·scopes

v.tr.

1. To cause to slide inward or outward in overlapping sections, as the cylindrical sections of a small hand telescope do.

2. To make more compact or concise; condense.

that is IMO a perfect logic check of the law.. to run that stock.. and fight it when harassed.. running a stock like that at the right range on the right day IS asking for trouble.. but as long as you are prepared to deal with said trouble.. it is my opinion that you are in the clear..

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I don't get why ANJRPC and/or the SAF isn't fighting this... this should be a slam dunk case for infringement.