FEDERAL JUDGE TRASHES

[Daedalus 19]

Oh Agreed..that said.. Scalia isnt getting any younger....AS much as I despise Romney i may have to (once again) hold my nose and vote for him, because at this point for the POYUS election ANYONE but OBama needs to be the watchword. Look, Romney isnt a conservative by ANY lights, and there's no guarantee he'll put a constructionalist ontp the court, but we KNOW what Obama will put on the court, and Kagan and Soto-Mayor both have stated their displeasure with the results of McDonald and Heller.

 

I'm 100% aligned with you on this, Pipes. Romney has scared the crap out of me for years - the ultimate sleazy RINO. I'm baffled by the Repubs lining up behind him. My personal gut feel is we are in for four more horrible years with the messiah in charge. The Republicans have not fielded a strong candidate and are providing the current administration with points to beat us up with thanks to negative campaigning and backstabbing.

 

Let's dig up the Gipper and run him. Why not, there are so many dead voters in Cook County we may as well have one on the good guy's team!

[KpdPipes 388]

I'm 100% aligned with you on this, Pipes. Romney has scared the crap out of me for years - the ultimate sleazy RINO. I'm baffled by the Repubs lining up behind him. My personal gut feel is we are in for four more horrible years with the messiah in charge. The Republicans have not fielded a strong candidate and are providing the current administration with points to beat us up with thanks to negative campaigning and backstabbing.

 

Let's dig up the Gipper and run him. Why not, there are so many dead voters in Cook County we may as well have one on the good guy's team!

 

Let's be realistic..those points were going to come out anyway..better to get it out in the open NOW, where it can be dealt with and it doesnt come as a surprise later.

[Daedalus 19]

Let's be realistic..those points were going to come out anyway..better to get it out in the open NOW, where it can be dealt with and it doesnt come as a surprise later.

 

Too true. You know how it works: if you say something long enough and loud enough, the masses will believe. Don't give them more airtime than we have to

[KpdPipes 388]

Too true. You know how it works: if you say something long enough and loud enough, the masses will believe. Don't give them more airtime than we have to

 

At this point it's the Republican's election to Lose..Obama is in a bad position..a LOT of his Promises are going to bite him in the a$$ come the Post-convention cycle...even the iraq pullout. This was negotiated by the Bush Admin, and the Current Admin was in negotiations to DELAY the pullout, which will be brought up. While Romney isnt a great choice (especially when it comes to OUR particular interests), he WILL appeal to the Moderates and independents..if he gets a good, SOLID conservative as a running mate, then there's a really decent chance we can fire Obama. McCain COULD have beaten him last time around, but he didnt want Palin, and let her be thrown to the wolves, which tainted the entire campaign.

 

ETA we're now getting way off topic on this one LOL...

 

Back to the issue at hand. As I said before I don't believe anyone really thought this was going to go any differently, this was just another stepping stone to get to SCOTUS.... Eventually someone is going to have to define exactly what this Nebulous term "Reasonable" actually constitutes.

[Midwest 28]

Midwest, there's probably no way you COULD fins the information on original wording online. They do EXIST, however, you would have to physically go to one of the Law Libraries. and hand pull the old books, to read how the statutes were written. Usually however they ALSO have the relevant caselaw from any court proceedings as well.

 

My best bet would be to visit some friends back East there and look it up there in NJ. For those that wish to look this up in NJ at a library. You want to search for Chapter 60 of the Laws of 1966 NJ, that would (should) have the original wording of the NJ Gun Control Act which included exceptions for open and concealed carry with out a license like I highlighted earlier.

 

After the article appeared in the THR...There was a post from a gentleman who used to live in Sussex ,NJ in 1955 and he remembers his relatives open carrying with no problems and they had shot guns and rifles in their trucks. So it would appear that the passage of the 1966 law was the cutoff date for open carry in New Jersey . But had those two 'carry' exceptions put in and were taken out later on (Don't know when).

 

The problem I been encountering is that the only reference that keeps coming up time and time again is the Burton vs Stills 1968 decision. What really opened the door to this was the online magazines to American Rifleman. Other than the Sills Act, there were proposals in other states and cities as well. There was talk of waiting periods, permits and such.

 

"Strangulation By Law In New Jersey" by Ashley Halsey Jr. in the December 1966 American Rifleman can be found at

 

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/Library/BookPage.aspx?bid=FW0000667&sid=183731&pid=20

 

I suggest all NJ gun owners read it through to get a snapshot on what was going on at the time in 1966 and who the players were. Some here might have access to the separate Legislative Alert for February 1966 which was referenced in the March American Rifleman. And can someone clarify if it was Tom Kean's administration is when the FID was needed to buy black powder guns? I thought it was in 1966.

 

If you want to do earlier searches and do your own research as well try Google searches like this "American Rifleman March 1966" it will bring you to the "Cheaper Than Dirt" library with American Rifleman magazine (you might want to check out those mind boggling mail order ads for pistols and rifles toward the back of the book!).

 

It is my hope that some of this information might be useful in some way.

Good Luck

[KpdPipes 388]

prohibition against carrying, at least Concealed, go back at least to the 30's..part of what i do now is go through the old reports from that period and get rid of the ones we dont absolutely HAVE to keep, Unlawful carrying of firearms was a pretty common charge during that time from what i'm seeing.

[Midwest 28]

Part Deux of When did New Jersey become so anti-gun ? The background

 

This finishes up the project and I hope it was as informative to you as it was to me. I discovered an excellent source for the completion of this project. I was thinking maybe weeks or months to research the rest.

 

Discovered Rutgers Law Library online. With this you can go all the way back to 1776 and research all the laws of New Jersey for each year. If you are a history buff or know someone who is this site is full of valuable history and the formation of our country.

 

Unfortunately I could not go from year to year and compare one years statues against another year. But I could check the known years when certain legislation was passed and checked the index to see if there was any new legislation of interest. You can easily research this stuff yourself if you want. Here is the main index below.

 

http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/njleg/index.shtml

 

 

Summary; there were surprises. Air and spring guns appear to have been outlawed in 1958 ?. And in 1954 a permit to purchase a handgun was needed, however in 1924 is when the concealed carry license came in effect and that calls for registration and and non could be sold after 3pm.

 

What a bizarre coincidence that another Constitutional Convention was called for 1966, the same year as the Sills Gun Control Act? Wholesalers of Firearms and Manufacturers of "dangerous instumentalities" (it really is worded that way) needed to register in 1951.

 

Want a Tommy Gun ? Well in 1927 is when they started to require to 'procure and possess a license to purchase' a machine gun. And we finally get down to the mystery of that "noxious thing" that keeps showing up in the gun laws.

 

 

Chapter 43 Laws of 1965 Page 102 Here they talk about a upcoming Constitutional Convention for the following year, for March 21 1966 in New Brunswick at Rutgers or at any other place the Governor may designate. (I find this interesting because March 1966 is when the American Rifleman started sounding the alarm about the new proposed law regarding firearm permits and such...Assembly Bill 165 or the Sills Act of 1966...just a coincidence..)

 

http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/cgi-bi...e=0102&zoom=70

 

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Chapter 60 Laws of 1966 Pages 480 - 506 Firearms Laws Revising, repealing and supplementing parts of Statutory Law. This is the one that changed things and the one you want to research yourself. Sills Act of 1966 or the FID 1966 Gun Control Law all 26 pages worth. The exact law, the exact wording, 1966 style.

 

http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/cgi-bi...e=0480&zoom=60

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Chapter 32 Laws of 1959 Page 125 Carry Permits for Armed Guards do not have to be renewed as long as they are employed. Others who have carry concealed permits will have their permits expire December 31 of each year to be renewed annually.

http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/cgi-bi...le=183&zoom=90

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Chapter 91 Laws of 1958 Page 534 Anyone who sells, manufactures, barters, hires, gives, buys,possesses,uses, shoots or knowingly delivers any spring gun, air gun or pistol with or any other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring or air and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than 3/8" inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person, is guilty of a misdemeanor. Approved June 30 1958 Did this really outlaw air guns? I thought it was 1966

http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/cgi-bi...e=0535&zoom=90

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Chapter 67 Laws of 1954 Page 419 No person shall sell or purchase a pistol or revolver unless the purchaser has first secured a permit to purchase or carry a pistol or revolver. Approved June 24 1954

http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/cgi-bi...le=178&zoom=90

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Chapter 29 Laws of 1951 page 135 Wholesalers of firearms and "dangerous instumentalities" have to register with the Superintendent Of Police. If the superintendent is not satisfied that the wholesaler can operate in a safe manner he can refuse to register the applicant.

http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/cgi-bi...le=175&zoom=90

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Chapter 95 Laws of 1927 Page 180-182 Machine Guns need to procure and possess a license to purchase. Apply at the Court of Common Pleas of the county where the applicant resides for a license to purchase have and possess a machine gun. Application shall be in writing and shall state the reasons for needing one. Application presented to the judge and to the sheriff, the judge at his discretion may issue a license. Exceptions for law enforcement..

http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/cgi-bi...e=0180&zoom=90

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Chapter 137 Laws of 1924 Page 305 - 308 >Concealed carry permit now needed. Establishes Record of Sale, Registry, signature of buyer and seller, duplicate needs to be delivered to chief of police, penalties include a high misdemeanor, 24 hour waiting period, no sales after 3 pm, presidents of banks and trust associations, loan institutions, can make application for (up to) 20 permits for the employees,agents, messengers and clerks. Does not apply to State Police or any motor vehicle inspector...Approved March 11 1924

 

http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/cgi-bi...e=0305&zoom=90

 

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Chapter 160 Laws of 1963 Page Page 878 So where did that "noxious thing" in the gun laws come about? Here is an act that establishes standards for those who commit an assault, robbery,larceny,burglary or breaking and entering when armed with machine gun,automatic rifle,revolver,pistol or other firearm or a gun,device or instrument from which may be fired or ejected any gas, vapor or other noxious thing by missle,pellet,bullet or otherwise. Then it goes on to list stuff like blackjack, slung shot (not sling shot!), dirk, dagger, sandbag and practically anything else whether toy or imitation. First conviction FIVE YEARS, Second Conviction Ten Years and so on. Approved December 7 1963. Notice it says slung shot, not sling shot

http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/cgi-bi...le=187&zoom=90

 

 

This completes the study on NJ Gun laws. It is my hope that some good comes out of this in some way. Good Luck

[Daedalus 19]

Well done, Midwest.

 

This should be stickied

[Midwest 28]

prohibition against carrying, at least Concealed, go back at least to the 30's..part of what i do now is go through the old reports from that period and get rid of the ones we dont absolutely HAVE to keep, Unlawful carrying of firearms was a pretty common charge during that time from what i'm seeing.

 

Correct and confirmed

 

 

 

Chapter 212 Laws of 1928 Pages 384 - 385 License needed for carrying....I did a little more digging and found a law in 1928 that required a license to carry. There was exceptions for those who hunted and did target practice and that seems to jive with older members recalling that they or their dad or relatives open carried. They could have used the target practice exemption as a reason for carrying and probably a lot of people got away with it and especially in rural areas where no one would blink an eye if someone had a gun all the way into the mid 1960's in those areas. My earlier comments (based on reports of others) that open carry was tolerated in some areas seems to ring true even though the law was that a license was needed. In addition there was a whole page of exemptions in addition to the target and hunting clauses. From law enforcement ,military, fish and game wardens, canal police, to even steamboat police as well as motor vehicle inspectors! Why did motor vehicle inspectors keep coming up in these various gun laws? Motor vehicle inspectors had more rights than a law abiding citizen! Approved April 3 1928

 

http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/cgi-bin/diglib.cgi?collect=njleg&file=152&page=0384&zoom=90

 

 

Couple of things I didn't touch on when I did part two. The 1966 FID law in general seems to take elements of and, sections of earlier laws with the penalties and revised and updated them with the added requirement for the FID card for rifles and such. It seemed like a massive consolidation in one big pile. The thing about informing the police of purchases goes back to 1924 with the conceal carry law, and that is where these things started.

 

The current FID system seems to have roots in the 1927 machine gun law where one needed to procure and possess a license. Today one has to procure and possess a FID before one can obtain a rifle or shotgun in NJ.

 

A lot of the current regulations especially the handgun regulations actually has roots dating back over eighty years ago. The License to carry rule actually goes way back to 84 years ago!

 

Finally a big thanks to Rutgers Online Law Library for having an outstanding and very valuable and historical resource. Without that site, part two and this addition would not have been possible.

 

Midwest

[Daedalus 19]

KpdPipes, on 14 January 2012 -

 

Chapter 212 Laws of 1928 Pages 384 - 385 License needed for carrying. From law enforcement ,military, fish and game wardens, canal police, to even steamboat police as well as motor vehicle inspectors! Why did motor vehicle inspectors keep coming up in these various gun laws? Motor vehicle inspectors had more rights than a law abiding citizen!

 

That's one I think I can answer. Motor Vehicle Inspectors were originally part of the NJ Highway Patrol (I kid you not!) and were considered sworn officers.

 

[KpdPipes 388]

KpdPipes, Midwest on 14 January 2012 -

 

Chapter 212 Laws of 1928 Pages 384 - 385 License needed for carrying. From law enforcement ,military, fish and game wardens, canal police, to even steamboat police as well as motor vehicle inspectors! Why did motor vehicle inspectors keep coming up in these various gun laws? Motor vehicle inspectors had more rights than a law abiding citizen!

 

That's one I think I can answer. Motor Vehicle Inspectors were originally part of the NJ Highway Patrol (I kid you not!) and were considered sworn officers.

 

Fixed that for you.....

[Daedalus 19]

oops!

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

 

The current FID system seems to have roots in the 1927 machine gun law where one needed to procure and possess a license.

 

 

Machine guns legal in NJ at one time? I would never have imagined.........

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

In 1898, it became illegal to sell, give, or barter fireams/toy guns to individuals under 15. Individuals under 15 could not operated said firearms/toy guns without adult supervision.

 

http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/cgi-bin/diglib.cgi?collect=njleg&file=122&page=0821&zoom=90 section 95

[Midwest 28]

I did some more searching , The process for a permit for a firearm goes back even further to 1912 and the Mayor can even issue permits. There are 1912 and 1921 Laws and the latter updates the 1912 act.

 

 

Chapter 225 Laws, Session of 1912 Page 364 Permit needed for carrying...Carrying dangerous weapons a misdemeanor and talks about what items are 'dangerous' and how to obtain a permit and exemptions..

 

http://lawlibrary.ru...ile=136&zoom=90

 

(The 1912 law is expanded in 1921 and I left most of that wording in.)

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Chapter 108 Laws of 1921 Page 206 - 207 Permit to carry. Any person who shall carry any revolver, pistol, firearm,bludgeon,blackjack,knuckles,sand-bag,slung-shot (NOT SLING SHOT) or other deadly,offensive or dangerous weapon, or any stiletto, dagger or razor or any knife with a blade five inches in length or over concealed in or about his clothes or person shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, however, nothing in this act shall be construed to prevent any sheriff,prosecutor,deputy sheriff, jailor, police officer, constable, State detective, member of a legally organized detective agency, or any peace officer or regular fish and game warden from carrying weapons when engaged in the discharge of his duty; nor duly authorized military or civil organizations, when parading nor members thereof when going to and from the places of meeting of their respective organizations; nor shall this act apply to any person having a written permit to carry such a weapon, firearm,stiletto,razor,dagger, or knife, or slung shot obtained from and signed by the Mayor of any city, borough or other municipality, or from any judge of Court of Common Pleas, which permits such officers are hereby to grant. Such permits shall be issued at the place of residence of the person obtaining the same, and, when issued shall be in force in all parts of the state for a period of one year from date of issue. (This goes on even longer)

 

http://lawlibrary.ru...ge=0206&zoom=90

 

The permit process is actually 90 years old, I imagine calling up your local Mayor and asking for a carry permit for a slung-shot or a sand-bag, might prove to be interesting...

[BarkNBite 15]

Isn't there any way to have a judge impeached for his obvious prejiduise of the US Constitution.......?

 

IMO...........I feel his ruling is purley political and not a valid judicial ruling......he should be tossed from the bench for his personal views and his anti-law abiding decision.

[Qel Hoth 33]

Isn't there any way to have a judge impeached for his obvious prejiduise of the US Constitution.......?

 

IMO...........I feel his ruling is purley political and not a valid judicial ruling......he should be tossed from the bench for his personal views and his anti-law abiding decision.

 

No, there is no way to remove a judge because of his/her rulings, only if they are convicted of certain crimes can they be impeached.

 

And, IMO, thats the way it should be. The purpose of the judicial system is to prevent the majority from infringing on the rights of the minority. If judges could be removed because their rulings do not agree with the position of the majority, the courts would be incapable of protecting the rights of the minority.

[Silent Service 7]

2nd amendment as passed by the Congress:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

 

2nd amendment as ratified by the States and authenticated by Thomas Jefferson, Secretary of State:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

 

"Judge William H. Walls (a Clinton appointee) ruled that "the Second Amendment does not include a general right to carry handguns outside the home." Characterizing the Second Amendment, he wrote "that privilege is unique among all other constitutional rights to the individual because it permits the user of a firearm to cause serious personal injury – including the ultimate injury, death – to other individuals, rightly or wrongly."

 

And I pay this clowns salary. Where is it stated within the 2nd amendment qualifying when and where I may keep and bear arms? So I'm wrong even if I rightly defend myself? This AH's statement is exactly why the 2nd amendment exists.