ATF coming tomorrow for a "Visit"

[GRIZ 3,369]

I'm hesitant saying this, but the ATF in this case isn't the problem. It is the NJSP should they go on a witch hunt a C&R will be used against you. And of course the Media will make it seem like you have a fully functional Sherman tank and land mines in your garage that you purchased with the C&R.

 

I'll admit a C&R makes you a brighter blip on the radar but you would have to do something fishy for the NJSP to come knocking at your door. Any acquisition of firearms done out of state is subject to the laws of the Feds and that state not NJ. It seems to me that in order to search anything in your home NJSP would require a warrant which would require probable cause of a crime. Unless I missed something in NJ statutes or admin code how does the state have any jurisdiction in regulating a license they don't issue? It seems that if NJSP came to your door without a warrant you could tell them have a nice day and close the door if you chose to.

 

I could be wrong but can anyone post a law that gives NJ police authority to inspect a C&R?

[Wojo 98]

IIRC, you agree to having inspections as part of the criteria for the C&R. Don't recall if they have to notify or not. NJ just feels that Federal Firearm Laws don't apply in this state.

 

Teresa from the ATF...tall dark hair average build out of the Garrett Mountain office? About late 40's with about 20 yrs in? Getting close to retirement?

[PK90 3,572]

She will be back here next week for a followup.

[Wojo 98]

PK, because of me not filling in the date block when I purchased that lower last year?

[PK90 3,572]

PK, because of me not filling in the date block when I purchased that lower last year?

Didn't ATF call you? They did mention a possible Straw Purchase, or something to that effect.

[Wojo 98]

Yea, they called me. Wanted to know how such a good looking guy (and humble) could be such a d!ck most of the time.

 

Ask Agent Friendly, if she was talking to a guy about the book, "The Gift of Fear" at a Church Carnival last month who was dressed as a Monk in a dunk tank (me). Funny story...

[PK90 3,572]

Are you setting me up?

[halbautomatisch 60]

I'll admit a C&R makes you a brighter blip on the radar but you would have to do something fishy for the NJSP to come knocking at your door. Any acquisition of firearms done out of state is subject to the laws of the Feds and that state not NJ. It seems to me that in order to search anything in your home NJSP would require a warrant which would require probable cause of a crime. Unless I missed something in NJ statutes or admin code how does the state have any jurisdiction in regulating a license they don't issue? It seems that if NJSP came to your door without a warrant you could tell them have a nice day and close the door if you chose to.

 

I could be wrong but can anyone post a law that gives NJ police authority to inspect a C&R?

 

I don't know of a law that allows them to do an inspection on their own. But, the is a member of this forum who doesn't post anymore who told the story of how the NJSP raided his house with the ATF. They locked him up, took his guns and the NJSP charged him with being an unlicensed dealer, even though he had sold only a handful of guns in the 20 years he had his C&R.

 

The case was eventually dismissed, but it took him 2 some odd years to get his guns back only to find they were mistreated by the NJSP. This happened during the Clinton era, when Clinton wanted to reduce the number of FFLs, the NJSP were all to willing to oblige.

 

I don't have time right now to look up the tread, but maybe someone can find it, I think about two years ago.

[GRIZ 3,369]

IIRC, you agree to having inspections as part of the criteria for the C&R. Don't recall if they have to notify or not. NJ just feels that Federal Firearm Laws don't apply in this state.

 

That would be an inspection by ATF not the NJSP. I've read on other forums inspections of C&R licensees (in states where they are recognized) are rare. When they do occur they are by appointment and can be at your house or the ATF office. Most of the inspections consist of the licensee just bringing his bound book to the ATF office. Now if NJ does not recognize Federal Firearms Laws then logically they could not use them conduct an inspection?

[GRIZ 3,369]

 

 

I don't know of a law that allows them to do an inspection on their own. But, the is a member of this forum who doesn't post anymore who told the story of how the NJSP raided his house with the ATF. They locked him up, took his guns and the NJSP charged him with being an unlicensed dealer, even though he had sold only a handful of guns in the 20 years he had his C&;R.

 

The case was eventually dismissed, but it took him 2 some odd years to get his guns back only to find they were mistreated by the NJSP. This happened during the Clinton era, when Clinton wanted to reduce the number of FFLs, the NJSP were all to willing to oblige.

 

I don't have time right now to look up the tread, but maybe someone can find it, I think about two years ago.

 

If this was the case there was prior info (false in this case) which provided probable cause for a search and/or arrest warrant. This info had to satisfy a judge.

 

There is a small but important distinction to be made in use of terminology here. Many are referring to the person who interviewed them and came to their house as a "agent". That is wrong. They are ATF Inspectors who do not carr guns and have no arrest authority. ATF agents carry guns and have arrest powers. If you are being "inspected" by a agent it would seem you are already in trobule.

[Daedalus 19]

This is starting to sound a bit like the paranoid threads frequently posted on a gun forum in a neighboring state.

 

The inspector called, made an appointment, had coffee with the licensee. What's the issue here?

[PK90 3,572]

The correct title is "Industry Operations Investigator" or "IOI" for short.

 

Industry operations investigators are the backbone of the ATF regulatory mission. Their work is primarily investigative and routinely involves contact with, and interviews of, individuals from all walks of life and all levels of industry and government. Investigations and inspections pertain to the industries and persons regulated by ATF (e.g., firearms and explosives users, dealers, importers, exporters, manufacturers, wholesalers, etc.); and are under the jurisdiction of the Gun Control Act, National Firearms Act, Arms Export Control Act, Organized Crime Control Act of 1970 and other Federal firearms and explosives laws and regulations.

 

The incumbent:

Conducts investigations and inspections designed to carry out the Federal government's regulatory responsibilities pertaining to the firearms and explosives industries. Identifies evidence of falsification of records, inventories and document discrepancies through the analysis and examination of records, documents, and reports. Refers violations to special agents for further action.

 

Determines if persons desiring to enter business in the regulated industries meet established legal requirements for obtaining a federal permit or license. Conducts interviews, inspects buildings, and performs routine background investigations to determine suitability. Prepares reports detailing results of investigations and inspections, and recommends further action when necessary.

 

Utilizes knowledge of the Federal and state laws involving commerce in alcohol and tobacco, provides assistance to senior industry operations investigators, who are working with special agents on alcohol and tobacco diversion investigations. Verifies inventories and utilizes intelligence data to analyze records and examine business operations.

 

Participates in conferences and discussions with Bureau officials concerning investigations and inspections. May develop presentations for industry associations and the public.

[GRIZ 3,369]

The correct title is "Industry Operations Investigator" or "IOI" for short.

 

Inspector was their old title. Didn't know of the change. Thanks for correcting me.

[Holeshot 3]

Scott, as stated earlier, there are 177 C&R holders in NJ. It is legal to have one. It is not a license to deal in firearms. It is a collector's license.

 

Thank you for providing the facts with data to back it up.

[Holeshot 3]

I don't know of a law that allows them to do an inspection on their own. But, the is a member of this forum who doesn't post anymore who told the story of how the NJSP raided his house with the ATF. They locked him up, took his guns and the NJSP charged him with being an unlicensed dealer, even though he had sold only a handful of guns in the 20 years he had his C&R.

 

The case was eventually dismissed, but it took him 2 some odd years to get his guns back only to find they were mistreated by the NJSP. This happened during the Clinton era, when Clinton wanted to reduce the number of FFLs, the NJSP were all to willing to oblige.

 

I don't have time right now to look up the tread, but maybe someone can find it, I think about two years ago.

 

I would really like to know the rest of the story on this one.

 

Let me ask some serious questions-

 

Why would this guy be singled out and all the other 150+ C&R collectors were left alone?

 

Did the NJSP just throw all the C&R license holders names in a hat and pull this guys name out to make an example of?

 

Why did the "All too obliging Clinton era NJSP" (In your words) stop with him and possibly a few others? How come they didn't get them all?

[halbautomatisch 60]

Here is the story as he told it, starting at post #20. He's not a member of this forum any longer, so we can't ask him more details......

 

 

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/20891-cr-liscense-and-nj-specifically-m1-carbine/

[Holeshot 3]

He's not a member of this forum any longer, so we can't ask him more details......

 

http://njgunforums.c...lly-m1-carbine/

 

I'm sorry but if those couple of posts become the gospel for you then so be it I guess.

 

One more comment, Did you ever stop to notice that most of the people who post their "I was wronged by the man" stories on this website stick around just long enough to stir the pot but when intelligent members question their stories they suddenly "Can't bear to talk about the horror of the incident again" or just never post again. Uh oh maybe the Gobbermint got em

 

As far as Nappen goes, I am not afraid to admit I am jealous of him, that book was genius! It is almost impossible to have a nj gun law conversation anywhere without someone saying "well Nappen says...." His only mistake was he should of legally changed his last name to Simon. Then people would be saying "Simon says...." It would carry that much more weight in our culture.

[halbautomatisch 60]

I'm sorry but if those couple of posts become the gospel for you then so be it I guess.

 

One more comment, Did you ever stop to notice that most of the people who post their "I was wronged by the man" stories on this website stick around just long enough to stir the pot but when intelligent members question their stories they suddenly "Can't bear to talk about the horror of the incident again" or just never post again. Uh oh maybe the Gobbermint got em

 

As far as Nappen goes, I am not afraid to admit I am jealous of him, that book was genius! It is almost impossible to have a nj gun law conversation anywhere without someone saying "well Nappen says...." His only mistake was he should of legally changed his last name to Simon. Then people would be saying "Simon says...." It would carry that much more weight in our culture.

The guy that posted that story was an active member here until he got put off by some of the other people here and decided to quit this forum, I still see him posting on other forums. He was never the type to tell fancyfull tales, I don't doubt his story. What I would really like to see is if times have changed any regarding the NJSP and C&Rs, the thought that all guns would be banned eventually was widespread in those days, even at the federal level.

[tony357 386]

The guy that posted that story was an active member here until he got put off by some of the other people here and decided to quit this forum, I still see him posting on other forums. He was never the type to tell fancyfull tales, I don't doubt his story. What I would really like to see is if times have changed any regarding the NJSP and C&Rs, the thought that all guns would be banned eventually was widespread in those days, even at the federal level.

 

An old instructor of mine was an avid rifle shooter, said that one day all firearms will be banned that was late 1990's..

granted, he worked for a large co, that the government was destroying with federal limitations.. that co did file bankruptcy dec 2000.

[PK90 3,572]

My cousin's best friend's girlfriend's mother was arrested for just applying for a C&R license.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry. Had to do it.

[petros600 12]

She will be back here next week for a followup.

 

Paul

Once you talk to her, can you let us?

[Jfoster99 80]

 

I got a ton of paper work from the ATF with my C&R. A lot was junk but these Federal Law books are a nice reference. Sometimes I prefer reading on paper then a PC Monitor. They also sent CD with everything as wel.

 

PM me if you would like anything in the picture. It is all duplicates.

 

I also got a follow up call back from the ATF investigator regarding the C&R exemption for the one gun a month.

 

The short version was the NJ State police said not... They do not recognize the C&R exemption..And they instruct FFL dealers not to accept this exemption.

 

In my opinion if a C&R holder purchased from two separate FFL dealers in a month and got a call from the state police they would win in court.... I could even see the state police dropping the charge so as not to set a precedent and open the way for everyone to just get their C&R....

 

This seem like a good cause for NJ2AS to peruse... There should be a way to take them to courts on this without someone having to risk jail time...

 

 

 

[Midwest 28]

Here is what I gathered so far, normally the ATF does not do pre-inspections for those applying for a C&R license. But there are exceptions, in addition to NJ...It was reported on another forum that the counties of Nassau and Suffolk have ATF pre-inspections. In NY State, C&R licensees cannot acquire any C&R pistols with their license, however C&R rifles seem to be fine.

 

Like in the case of NY State, there are variations in C&R rules in some states. Usually that is spelled out somewhere in state laws and not left to phone calls to the police to try determine what is legal or not.

 

(Regular FFL applicants across the board get pre-inspections no matter what state the applicant lives in. That is a given.)

 

As far as yearly inspections by the ATF, they do have a right to inspect your C&R records once a year. And in addition if there is something they need for an investigation. Either case they would call for an appointment first at your convenience. As far as the state police doing inspections on C&R licensees, that is beyond the scope of what is to be expected for an C&R licensee.

 

I never heard signs being required in a house for a C&R licensee. The signs are meant for dealers and because a C&R licensee is not a dealer, the signs requirement should not apply to him/her.

 

There is no requirement for signs in the house for being a C&R licensee by the ATF unless that is a NJ rule and there should be a section in NJ law that specifically addresses C&R licensees. There should be a statute that addresses all the concerns of C&R license holders.