Taking a prohibited person to the range

[vladtepes 1,060]

After further thought, I change my mind.  I would not condescend, nor discuss, nor attempt to restrict and trust him.  I would have a polite conversation stating he is prohibited from the range, and leave the felon at home.  Ignorance is bliss in this case, but since you know he's a felon you can't claim ignorance. 

 

can you show me the LAW that prohibits him from being at the range... not from shooting guns.. or handling guns.. but instead the law that states he can not even legally be at a gun range.. 

 

thanks.. 

[vladtepes 1,060]

Sir, I never said he was prohibited by law from being on range property.  This is not true. 

 

I stated "some ranges my prohibit him".  LGS / Ranges are private property, and they may choose to permit or ban felons as they wish, or anyone else for any reason or no reason at all. 

 

By federal and state law, felons are not allowed to possess firearms.  Suppose he picked up a firearm and put a couple rounds downrange and a horrible accident occurred.  In the communist state of NJ, if you *knowingly* brought a felon to a firing range I'm sure a NJ liberal prosecutor / judge exists who would find a way to charge you of aiding abetting.  I have 5 names right now in my head. 

 

If you think I'm wrong, go to a NJ LGS.  Quietly walk in and say "I'm a felon and not here to touch firearms, I'm just here to look around."  I can guarantee you'll be kicked off the property, AND the range, promptly.  Go ahead and try it at the Bullet Hole, see how long you're on their property after that statement. 

 

I'm not ok with felons standing next to me at the range.  If you are, then we agree to disagree, no problem.  Have a nice day. 

 

 

 

 

 I would have a polite conversation stating he is prohibited from the range

 

you stated that he should be told he is prohibited from being at the range... which sounds like a pretty board statement.. 

 

I have a friend that is a felon... he is a felon because he was an idiot when he was younger (non violent offence)... he is not some psychopath that is going to run up to the line knock someone over take their gun and start shooting all over the place.. so I guess you judge all felons equally and anyone who has every committed a felony in their life is incapable of being trusted on any level.. if that is your stance you are more than welcome to have it... 

 

I can think of at least one range that has a visitors area where non shooters can watch shooter shoot... I am %100 sure that this range would allow this father to watch his son learn to shoot a gun.. would they let him shoot a gun? no of course not.. but that is not the context of the OP question...

 

try to think on a broader scale.. outside of a small bubble.. maybe you know 20 ranges that would agree with you.. but that does not mean the entire world is the same... the reality is if the individual is not going to shoot or handle a gun his criminal background is moot.. 

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Since the public is invited to shoot guns on public "Gun Days" at lots of Ranges in NJ, and since I'm an Old Fudd and don't remember EVER seeing an Instant Check System established for said Gun Days, Ladies' Days, etc., I would therefore presume that the onus to "NO Touchy" is on the convicted Felon.  I would also presume that hundreds or thousands of Felons go to Ranges to watch people (friends and family members) shoot guns.  So I have to ask, WHAT MAKES THIS GUY SO SPECIAL?

 

We all have friends we take to Ranges.  Do you "run" them all through NICS or NCIC?  This is a mountain made outta a mole hill!  The OP needs to have a private conversation with the Felon-Dad about confirming "NO-Touchy", with a polite reminder that some/most Ranges these days have CCTV.  THAT'S ALL THAT IS REQUIRED!  Everything else on this thread is hearsay and inexperience.

 

Point-of-fact:

 

Several years ago, G. Gordon Liddy, one of the Watergate Burglars (a convicted FELON), told the story via WABC 770 Talk Radio, of how he "sold" all of his prized Gun collection to his Wife, Mrs. Liddy.  Then G. Gordon went on to tell the story of how, in the middle of the night, if the house was being robbed with them still inside of it, that G. Gordon would "show" Mrs. Liddy how to operate his trusted 1911 .45 ACP to lay the Perp(s) out on a platter!  Guess what...NO Storm Troopers hit the Sound Studio to arrest G. Gordon.  And you know why?  Because it's still legal for a Felon to live with his Wife!  So what in God's name in hell is so darn bad about a nice guy Dad (with a rap sheet that needs expungement because it's ANCIENT) just wanting to watch his son grow-up to be a man?

 

Sometimes I begin to wonder if some of you are Pussified Lefties scarred as SH!T of your own shadow!  To the OP:  If you need any help with this and want another set of eyes to RO, just PM me and I'll flex my schedule to help.  Maybe even bring my little Weber grill so the Felon can cook dogs and burgers instead of shoot!  How's that for putting my "money" where my keyboard is??  LOL, you just can't make this SH!T up!

 

Dave

[Contrvlr 17]

So much common sense, my head might explode

[ryan_j 0]

There is no need for personal insults.  This is a legal forum, and a legal debate.  Please refrain from defamation and accusations, that what the Bucket is for. 

 

For the love of God... really? 

[ryan_j 0]

No I was talking about this being a legal forum and a legal debate.

 

I feel so left out for not having a law degree and a law license like you guys. 

[WP22 1,558]

 

I'm not ok with felons standing next to me at the range.  If you are, then we agree to disagree, no problem.  Have a nice day. 

 

At what point in time do you consider a felon to have paid his debt to society?

 

 

 

Knowingly bringing a felon to a firing range, putting him on the firing line with firearms and his son (for whom he is legally responsible)...   this would be questionable in a court of law if something occurred.  It CERTAINLY would be brought up by the prosecutors and judge.  If you think is would never be mentioned if, god forbid, someone shot themselves at a class or the range (see previous instance) in a court of law, then we disagree.  That's why they make chocolate and vanilla. 

 

If it legal for a person convicted of a DWI, with a suspended drivers license to be a passenger in a car, why is not ok from a legal standpoint for a felon to be a range **watching** his son shooting guns.

 

My advice to the op, have a "no touch under any circumstances" talk with the dad, go and enjoy your day.

 

[ryan_j 0]

Would any of you have a problem if Brian Aitken stood next to you at the range? He is a convicted felon (who had his sentence commuted by Governor Christie.)

 

Or what about a guy who wrote a few bad checks? 

 

Or some guy who got caught playing around with a sling shot?

 

There are felons and there are violent criminals. One doesn't necessarily equal the other. 

[WP22 1,558]

So your not comfortable having a felon next to you at a range, but once he goes through the proper channels and expunged his felony you feel comfortable?

[Shawnmoore81 623]

a friend of mine's dad became a felon for having employees working for cash. He was still a great guy, still a great dad and I'd trust him. I do believe many years later he did get his right to own a fire arm back.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[WP22 1,558]

Nobody said anything about allowing a felon to fire guns at a range or anywhere else. Nobody said anything about a felon handling guns. Neither did the op. Nobody but you.

 

I don't know about you, but when I go to the range, I don't go up and down the line asking everybody for a copy of their criminal record.

[leahcim 680]

Yes, exactly correct.  If a felon goes through the proper channels and the felony is expunged, he has paid his debt.  He is legally allowed to possess firearms, so he's good to go. 

 

This conversation is ridiculous.  How would you feel if you found out your young sons were shooting guns with a felon?  Who knows, and who cares what crimes he did, or did not commit.  You don't know anything about that person, other than he is a felon. 

 

You honestly think it's a GOOD IDEA to bring a felon to a firing range, with other children, to shoot guns?  You think the RO and owner of the range are ok with this?  You think all the other fathers attending this event would be ok with this? 

Who said anything about shooting guns with a felon?  He is just there watching his non-felon son shooting.

The OP is not bringing a "felon to a firing range...to shoot guns." the felon is just there to observe.

[wink-_-wink 1]

Is the kids Mom a felon? Just saying most kids (most) have 2 parents and you can bring your lady too so its not weird our bringing another woman to the range... damn sounds like a field trip BUT then all parties are happy, get to shoot and no one is breaking any laws....

[Smokin .50 1,907]

There is no need for personal insults.  This is a legal forum, and a legal debate.  Please refrain from defamation and accusations, that what the Bucket is for. 

 

If you think I'm a pussy, well, you're a gentleman and a scholar.  Thank you for your legal opinion.  You may join me at my next SAR class, and teach me a thing or two about high angle rescue and proper field amputation.  I'm obviously not tough enough, by your standards. 

 

Living with a felon, as I stated earlier in common shared apartments, houses, or by marraige, is legal for firearms possession.  I agree, this is legal, and has been supported in case law. 

 

Knowingly bringing a felon to a firing range, putting him on the firing line with firearms and his son (for whom he is legally responsible)...   this would be questionable in a court of law if something occurred.  It CERTAINLY would be brought up by the prosecutors and judge.  If you think is would never be mentioned if, god forbid, someone shot themselves at a class or the range (see previous instance) in a court of law, then we disagree.  That's why they make chocolate and vanilla. 

 

I didn't single you out.  Be that as it may, a Forum exists for all to pontificate.  OPINIONS fly like so much BS, and that is the very nature of adult debate.  Chest pounding SAR and field amputation certainly make for an interesting discussion, but it (this thread) all boils-down to nothing more than OPINIONS about existing laws on the books, NOT about all of the "what-ifs" as the gun magically jumps up and shoots somebody and the Cops show-up.  

 

I've shot next to Politicians, Gang-Bangers, Thugs, Felons, Cops, and even some Paramedics with decades of advanced training and experience.  Over 44 years' worth of pumping lead into the ground.  If some Kids' Dad  wants to watch him grow-up, I think it's NOT a violation of law to let him do JUST THAT!  WATCH!  I'm NOT "putting him ON the Firing Line with firearms".  I have instructed countless folks of all ages how to safely handle and shoot firearms, so I have enough experience to quell all of your aforementioned fears about someone shooting themselves or others.  And the Felon-Dad is NOT handling firearms.  I'd have him manning the little Weber Grill making lunch instead!  Even Griz, a Federal Cop with 30 years OTJ is essentially saying the same as I:  being "around" firearms is NOT a problem, so long as he doesn't actually TOUCH them.  If this same Felon was in line at a Diner to pay at the register and a Cop walked by him to go pee, he'd be in closer proximity to a loaded firearm than common sense would allow at this Range event, so where's the problem?  Is the Felon supposed to jump over the counter to avoid the EVIL loaded firearm, or just go about his legal business and pay the Cashier?  Any other OPINION is just THAT, an OPINION on a Forum debating what is written and how it's interpreted, along with mild discourse about chocolate and vanilla.......

 

As to the Pussified Lefties remark, I'm afraid it still stands (if the shoe fits).  Borrowing trouble is something I don't prescribe to do.  The "What-ifs'" really don't frighten me, since I don't live my life that way.

 

In a pre-arranged, comfortable and controlled environment, EVERYONE would enjoy themselves and it would be completely LEGAL according to written law, so long as the Felon-Dad flipped burgers instead of loading mags.......... 

[TheDon 3]

Is the kids Mom a felon? Just saying most kids (most) have 2 parents and you can bring your lady too so its not weird our bringing another woman to the range... damn sounds like a field trip BUT then all parties are happy, get to shoot and no one is breaking any laws....

 

This would normally be reasonable advice.  But not this kid's mom.  Well, not unless we convinced her that range was giving out coupons to Bloomingdales.  :-p

[wink-_-wink 1]

This would normally be reasonable advice.  But not this kid's mom.  Well, not unless we convinced her that range was giving out coupons to Bloomingdales.  :-p

everyday is a good day to get someone new to attempt this sport and hobby.  Give her a .22 and let her blast away at zombie targets!!  who can resist shooting zombies!! ZOMBIES!

[vladtepes 1,060]

You really think it's ok to put a known felon at a firing range port with other children, in the direct presence of children shooting loaded guns?  You think this is legal? 

 

yes.. I think the LAW does not disallow this... 

and for the second time.. please show me the LAW that states that a felon can not be 1/10000000000 of an inch away from a gun... hovering just over top of it...

 

his felony disallows him from possessing a gun.. 

 

you shoot out all this emotionally charged commentary.. 

 

 

"OMGZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!1111 IF THE RANGE OWNER KNEW WHAT YOU WERE PLANNING.. OMGZZ111111!!!!!!!!!!!"

 

but you are really making the situation something it is obviously not...

 

the original poster is bringing a kid to the range...

to teach the kid how to shoot a gun..

wants the kids dad to be around to watch...

 

probably because the kids dad cares.. and has a feeling that if his kid is going to handle a gun.. he wants to watch over him and make sure nothing crazy happens...

 

it is probably not a secret plot to gain access to guns..

it is probably not a scheme he has to touch everyones gun.. violate his restrictions and go BACK to jail...

 

the truth is the guy probably has no interest in touching a gun.. because prison sucks...

 

and the real reality of the situation is I doubt the range would care half as much as you think they would....

 

"I am bringing my friends son to teach him how to safely handle a gun... his father is going to come with... he will NOT be handling any guns though because of a legal issue he had some years ago.. he just wants to come along to keep an eye on his kid since there will be guns around"

 

your reaction is honestly beyond excessive.. 

[GRIZ 3,369]

I said before that there is nothing illegal about this guy being in proximity of guns as long as he doesn't handle them. I imagine a case could be made for constructive possession if the guns were sitting on a table and he was the only one around. Solve that by not letting it happen.

 

There seems to be some defending this felon and some condemning him. He may be the best guy in the worls now but it is what it is and he's not supposed to handle firearms period. Some say so what if he cranks off a few rounds. Say that when you're charged with supplying a felon with a firearm and looking at 5 years.

 

The fact he pled out has no bearing. He's a convicted felon. I know a guy who was a decorated (Silver Star, Bronze Star, Purple Heart) WWII vet but he did 18 months for bookmaking. Randy Cunningham was the first Vietnam Ace and introduced some great legislation in Congress but he became a convicted felon. One of the Rangers who was awarded a Silver Star for his actions in Blackhawk Down is doing time for molesting a little girl. One thing has nothing to do with the other. There's also some speaking of just how "bad" a felony this guy did. I get the impression no one really knows. Some think because he got probation it wasn't that bad. I've seen some people do some really nasty things and get off with probation. Some are talking violent and nonviolent felony makes a difference. So if he was charged with possession of kiddie porn that would be okay?

 

The system is not perfect but its the one we have to work with.

 

I would want to know what he was convicted of but maybe that's just me. I would talk to the guy and make sure he's aware he's not supposed to handle firearms and he understands that. If he's okay with it so can I (depending on what the conviction was for). If he's not okay with it he's not welcome.

[High Exposure 5,673]

If there is a doubt, then there is no doubt.

 

I woudn't bring him.

 

It has nothing to do with whether or not he was a bad guy or committed a crime in the past. I don't care if he is the best dad in the world and gives everything he has to charity as he saves puppies, or he deals drugs to kindergartners while drowning kittens. All that matters is what his status is right now and that is - prohibited.

 

I recognize that it is purely selfish decision but if there is even the chance that this individual could impact my ability to own and enjoy my firearms then oh well, too bad, so sorry.

 

He made a choice when he committed whatever crime he committed. He may have been dumb and young but no matter, that choice was his, whether it was 20 minutes or 20 years ago, and he has to deal with the consequences of his actions - like we all do. He is a grown man, if he wanted to take the initiative and get it expunged, good for him, but until he is no longer a prohibited person I am not bringing him to the range.

 

For those of you who said "who will know" with willing intent to break the law - I say shame on you. Doing the right thing even when no one is looking is a test of responsibility and character, and you failed.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I said before that there is nothing illegal about this guy being in proximity of guns as long as he doesn't handle them. I imagine a case could be made for constructive possession if the guns were sitting on a table and he was the only one around. Solve that by not letting it happen.

 

There seems to be some defending this felon and some condemning him. He may be the best guy in the worls now but it is what it is and he's not supposed to handle firearms period. Some say so what if he cranks off a few rounds. Say that when you're charged with supplying a felon with a firearm and looking at 5 years.

 

The fact he pled out has no bearing. He's a convicted felon. I know a guy who was a decorated (Silver Star, Bronze Star, Purple Heart) WWII vet but he did 18 months for bookmaking. Randy Cunningham was the first Vietnam Ace and introduced some great legislation in Congress but he became a convicted felon. One of the Rangers who was awarded a Silver Star for his actions in Blackhawk Down is doing time for molesting a little girl. One thing has nothing to do with the other. There's also some speaking of just how "bad" a felony this guy did. I get the impression no one really knows. Some think because he got probation it wasn't that bad. I've seen some people do some really nasty things and get off with probation. Some are talking violent and nonviolent felony makes a difference. So if he was charged with possession of kiddie porn that would be okay?

 

The system is not perfect but its the one we have to work with.

 

I would want to know what he was convicted of but maybe that's just me. I would talk to the guy and make sure he's aware he's not supposed to handle firearms and he understands that. If he's okay with it so can I (depending on what the conviction was for). If he's not okay with it he's not welcome.

 

+1K Griz!  Thanks for your common-sense input to a situation faced by thousands of Gun Owners.  I too would want to know just what I'm dealing with (bookmaking vs. armed robbery) so as to enable me to better make an educated and informed decision.  I NEVER stated that I'd leave the Felon alone next to a table of firearms, or even let him get close to the shooting table, as common sense would dictate the exact opposite.  So "constructive possession" wouldn't be an issue either (thanks for bringing this logistical restroom maneuver to light).

[vladtepes 1,060]

I think the confusion is this...

 

"bring him to the range and let him watch his kid... there is NOTHING illegal about that"

is entirely different than

"bring him to the range and let him handle guns no one will know just look the other way"

 

I am not advocating breaking the law... but I am also acknowledging that there is no law broken by a felon that is watching someone shoot... it is simply not illegal..

 

AND that was the ACTUAL question asked... "can I bring a felon to a range so he can keep an eye on his kid while he learns to shoot"

the simple answer to that..

 

YES.. YOU CAN... 

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I think the confusion is this...

 

"bring him to the range and let him watch his kid... there is NOTHING illegal about that"

is entirely different than

"bring him to the range and let him handle guns no one will know just look the other way"

 

I am not advocating breaking the law... but I am also acknowledging that there is no law broken by a felon that is watching someone shoot... it is simply not illegal..

 

AND that was the ACTUAL question asked... "can I bring a felon to a range so he can keep an eye on his kid while he learns to shoot"

the simple answer to that..

 

YES.. YOU CAN... 

+1K

 

And I feel the same way you do...it's plainly LEGAL to do so.  Just like standing in line next to a Cop carrying a pistol.  NO laws broken!  Everything else is simply being a Drama Queen.... 

[TheDon 3]

Friends,

 

My question was on legality.  I was not sure if constructive possession applied to this situation or if I would be in legal trouble for facilitation. 

When it comes to the advisability and peripheral consequences, please trust that I have the faculties to weigh the pros and cons.   

 

I appreciate the legal guidance, and I do understand that it is worth everything that I paid for it.  ;-)

I appreciate the guidance people have offered on the advisability and potential consequences.  I respect everyone's opinion.

 

OP bowing out now.

Enjoy the fight. 

 

[High Exposure 5,673]

High E, have you ever climbed "High Exposure", aka High E? It's a famous route in NY, one of the classic eastern gunks routes. I take a lot of trad guys there.... Just wondering.

Haven't been climbing since I had my son but yes.... Many many many times Thats where I got my SN.

 

The Trapps is one of my favorite places in the world!

[High Exposure 5,673]

AND that was the ACTUAL question asked... "can I bring a felon to a range so he can keep an eye on his kid while he learns to shoot"

the simple answer to that..

 

YES.. YOU CAN...

No argument and I didn't say it was legal or not. I said I wouldn't do it.

 

Personally, I am not a lawyer and try to not offer legal opinions, just the occasional statutes and the like. I especially refrain where the actual "legality" of what someone is asking can be interpreted by LEOs in a way that is often left up to the opinion of a Judge after an arrest and trial costing thousands of dollars and a year or more of heartache. My opinion on the situation is not a legal one at all.

 

It is simply based on the selfish principal of "It is not worth the potential headaches in my own life to provide this experience to this man, as the situation stands right now". I am not saying the guy is a bad guy and I don't care why his status is the way it is. It is enough to know that it just is. And that's enough for me to say no.

 

If the OP truly didn't know the guy was prohibited - totally different story. The actual "act" of following the particulars of the prohibition is then squarely on the prohibited person - to know, understand, and to obey the restrictions. Once the OP knows, he is culpable as well should anything go "wrong" and has a responsibility to ensure that, even accidentally or unintentionally, those laws aren't broken. Personally, I feel being a lawful gun owner, and therefore one of the good guys, he has a responsibility to ensure prohibited (regardless of the why) and unauthorized persons don't have access or the ability to possess firearms - especially his.

 

I can see a hundred ways where this can turn bad for the OP, his kid, the Father in question and the range they go to.

[vladtepes 1,060]

 

 

2C:58.1

 

The firearm shall be handled and used by the person to whom it is temporarily transferred only in the actual presence or under the direct supervision of the legal owner of the firearm (this is the OWNER of the guns NOT the felon, the dealer who transferred the firearm or any other person competent to supervise the handling and use of firearms and authorized to act for that purpose by the legal owner or licensed dealer(the felon is NOTauthorizsed to use the gunsperiod).  The legal owner of the firearm or the licensed dealer shall be on the premises or the property of the firing range during the entire time that the firearm is in the possession of the person to whom it is temporarily transferred.

 

 

 

the law you posted has nothing to do with this situation... 

[vladtepes 1,060]

Sorry, the "-3" got left out in copy / paste.  This is the temporary transfer of a firearm law, 2C:58-3.1.  How does this law not apply?  What is the proper law then, for transferring a firearm (I assume the felon doesn't own this gun, but OP or someone else does).  I could be assuming wrong though. 

 

 

the felon is never going to handle the gun ever... its just not going to happen... so there is no transfer.. 

the transfer is occurring between the gun owner.. and the felon's  child.. 

[vladtepes 1,060]

Vlad, please read again what I wrote above.  I agree, felon no touch, and I am not stating that felon has direct possession.  This is about OP's question about CP. 

 

I said If *you or someone ELSE* is willing ...  THEY would be the person supervising the handling and use of the firearm.  I am absolutely not willing to do that for a felon who is basically a stranger (as OP stated, he does not know this man). 

 

If the felon is the one doing the "supervising", then they are in CP.  Yes sir, because they are responsible for their child legally and directly, and thusly have easy and direct control over the child and their personal property.  The felon cannot be the "supervisor" under 2C:58-3.1 quoted above.

 

 

the are supervising the child.. NOT someone else'd property.. 

and the reality is the OP already stated HE was showing the child how to shoot... NOT the felon.. I am assuming the felon is more along just to keep an eye on his child.. from 12 feet away or so.... lol