FBI dumping .40 and going to a 9mm

[High Exposure 5,664]

I have no problem with the 9mm. If you would have read the whole thread you would have seen that not only did I start this thread, but I think it is a good idea

 

It is your statement above about the prevalence of ARs in LE that was based in complete fantasy that I have issue with.

 

You have the situational awareness of a friggin rock sometimes Shawn.

[BlueLineFish 615]

So only 800 men are? What are you invading bagdhad?

 

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I said less than half. And that number is spread over more than 20 commands and details so very few at each location are heavy weapons trained. Im not even sure if you had a point or have just been out of the spotlight too long

[BlueLineFish 615]

What I'm saying is when bigger rounds are needed they are accessible. But in a day to day situation the 9mm is fine.

 

 

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Based on your experiences. Call of Duty is not real life and neither are all the cop dramas you watch. You have no credibility to speak on this subject. Your day to day is very different from my day to day

[High Exposure 5,664]

So only 800 men are? What are you invading bagdhad?Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Again with the misconception. We aren't a goddamn platoon with mutual fire. We mostly work alone. So if I am one of the 800 on BLF's case or one of the 22 in my case, you just don't have a long gun. The presence of a long gun in any PDs TOE has absolutely ZERO bearing on what caliber sidearms are chosen.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

It's amazing how many cops in south jersey are trained and have em. I guess it's a fluke. The department my buddy works at have a full auto m4 on ever shift plus a hk mp and a sniper rifle. Hell they were even going through the woods looking for the "mountain lion" that as suppose to be around the area with em. That's local pd's and wardens.

 

 

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[checko 180]

Quick question. Is the long gun certification mandatory for some or always by request?

[BlueLineFish 615]

Quick question. Is the long gun certification mandatory for some or always by request?

Every dept is different. My job its training you get based on seniority. Complete bullshit

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Again with the misconception. We aren't a goddamn platoon with mutual fire. We mostly work alone. So if I am one of the 800 on BLF's case or one of the 22 in my case, you just don't have a long gun. The presence of a long gun in any PDs TOE has absolutely ZERO bearing on what caliber sidearms are chosen.

 

It absolutely does. If carbines are a radio call away or already there for a planned operation then you don't need a higher caliber all the time. A 9mm is fine to drop a threat.

 

 

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[Shawnmoore81 623]

And my opinion on police sidearms have nothing to do with spotlights or anything like that. I just think a 9mm is an ample sidearm for law enforcements daily carry. But if you go into a situation that you think you need more power it's readily available. Not everything has to be an argument or is a shot at law enforcement.

 

 

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[High Exposure 5,664]

It absolutely does. If carbines are a radio call away or already there for a planned operation then you don't need a higher caliber all the time. A 9mm is fine to drop a threat.

 

 

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Explain to me when, in the fight for your life, is the right time to talk on the radio. Also explain how nobody else could be tied up on another call, or closer than 5 minutes. Also explain to me what happens if you are the rifle certified officer, but it is in your car.

 

It must be nice to live in your world were everything is simple.

[checko 180]

Every dept is different. My job its training you get based on seniority. Complete bs

Way to promote initiative.

[Shane45 807]

Shawn, stop trying to backpedal. You subtended that since just about every officer has a carbine there is less need for a large caliber pistol. Two bonafieds are telling you your wrong and now your trying to squirm in several directions. If you would stop trying to portray yourself as some kind of guru, which you clearly are not, you would have SO much less trouble on the forum.

 

Do you even understand the platoon comment or do you think you can call time out and wait for one of the guys issued a long gun or do you get to run back and get one in the middle of an engagement?

[RUTGERS95 890]

as always, it comes down to shot placement and number of rounds on target

 

I'd much rather have 9mm with 15 to go in a manageable sized frame than less in 40 or 45 with a larger frame. 

 

shot placement is key

[Shawnmoore81 623]

 

I said they are widely displaced. They were my exact words. Go back and read it. Guess what, they are. If needed they are readily available. That's is to the word what I said. That's not back pedaling. That's what I said. God forbid the didn't say every cop should have a tank. I must hate all cops. Get real. I'd bet money almost every department in nj has em. Even if it's just one.

 

 

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[High Exposure 5,664]

And my opinion on police sidearms....

Shawn, tell you what, I won't tell you my opinions on what tools you need to sweat a pipe or knock tin or whatever it is you do. And you don't tell me the tools and tactics I need to do my job. K? Great. Thanks. It isn't because "I am the Law" or any bullish!t like that, it is because your version of LE work is so skewed it makes "Cop Rock" seem like a documentary.

 

Get a firm grasp on reality and use some critical thinking and I will buy you a beer and shoot the bull all night. Until then, hush child.

 

as always, it comes down to shot placement and number of rounds on target

 

I'd much rather have 9mm with 15 to go in a manageable sized frame than less in 40 or 45 with a larger frame. 

 

shot placement is key

^^ This all day long!

 

I will take many rounds in a small area quickly over fewer rounds in a larger area longer any day of the week. That .07" difference in diameter between a 9mm and .45 doesn't do it for me.

[Shane45 807]

Shawn, I think what makes it so hard to communicate with you is you are so illogical.

 

Where is the logic in the effectiveness of a pistol cartridge based on the availability of a single rifle somewhere in the department. When exactly was it large calibers where not available? the 1600's?

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Shawn, I think what makes it so hard to communicate with you is you are so illogical.

 

Where is the logic in the effectiveness of a pistol cartridge based on the availability of a single rifle somewhere in the department. When exactly was it large calibers where not available? the 1600's?

What I'm saying is if your going into a situation where more firepower is needed you have it. But on a daily duty you are fine with a 9mm. I'm not talking swat teams or even locals doing warrants for raids. I'm talking your daily routine. That shoutout video posted. The cops needed more firepower. They had to go to a gun shop. Now a days that's not a reality. The departments have carbines available. If yours doesn't then the one in the next town does. So you don't need to outfit every Leo with a large caliber round. You guys are taking as an attack. It's not. I'm just saying that now that the departments are more stocked with carbines it's more realistic to drop down to a 9mm.

 

 

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[Shawnmoore81 623]

And I'm an industrial and commercial insulator. Mostly industrial. And if you have ideas on what tools I should use I'd be glad to hear it. I won't get all upset and defensive.

 

 

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[Shane45 807]

Now to get back on track to a good old 9 vs 45 debate. Capacity vs alleged superior performace. Here is my thinking on the subject which is OPEN to change as I personally consider the merits of each. The reason I said a 2 BG gun or a 3 BG gun is that I think time has to be considered. You need a CNS shot or to inflict a lot of Hydraulic leakage to be effective. But just how long is someone going to stand there and let you shoot them? How good a shot are you under high stress? This is why most of the time if yuo ask me, I would indeed side with .45. Having chatted with a guy on a dept that has a higher rate of actual shootings then normal, he tells me that the .45ACP HST +P's are extremely effective and that the recovered diameter hovers near 1". So my logic is I simply may only get a few hits on that hostile moving target. And 9 or 11 rounds is likely enough to engage 2 BG's. But what if there are 3? Time and mikes, you may very well find yourself at slide lock after 2 BG's. But of course this opens the debate on the amount of time it takes to engage 3. It gets to be a stretch for sure. But since the discussion is therotical, its fodder for debate and speculation. I had previously held the position that a protracted gunfight for a civilian is an extreme unlikelyhood. I believe it still is, but like I said the Kenyan mall and the NYC incident to name a few, make it worth while to reconsider.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Hell I'd even allow cops to choose what they want. But making the standard a 9mm is fine. Those glocks come in a lot of calibers. I understand everyone having the same gun makes things easier . But I don't see anything wrong with have 9mm, .40 and .45. But 9mm as a standard is fine. It's not like I'm saying you should have .22's to save ammo money.

 

 

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[Shawnmoore81 623]

Now to get back on track to a good old 9 vs 45 debate. Capacity vs alleged superior performace. Here is my thinking on the subject which is OPEN to change as I personally consider the merits of each. The reason I said a 2 BG gun or a 3 BG gun is that I think time has to be considered. You need a CNS shot or to inflict a lot of Hydraulic leakage to be effective. But just how long is someone going to stand there and let you shoot them? How good a shot are you under high stress? This is why most of the time if yuo ask me, I would indeed side with .45. Having chatted with a guy on a dept that has a higher rate of actual shootings then normal, he tells me that the .45ACP HST +P's are extremely effective and that the recovered diameter hovers near 1". So my logic is I simply may only get a few hits on that hostile moving target. And 9 or 11 rounds is likely enough to engage 2 BG's. But what if there are 3? Time and mikes, you may very well find yourself at slide lock after 2 BG's. But of course this opens the debate on the amount of time it takes to engage 3. It gets to be a stretch for sure. But since the discussion is therotical, its fodder for debate and speculation. I had previously held the position that a protracted gunfight for a civilian is an extreme unlikelyhood. I believe it still is, but like I said the Kenyan mall and the NYC incident to name a few, make it worth while to reconsider.

You can throw into the argument that's you can carry spare mags for the .45. But having the rounds already in the gun is way better then having to reload under duress.

 

 

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[Shane45 807]

Shawn there is no attack, what I believe to be the flaw in yuor logic is that everyone here is talking abuot how they feel about defending their lives with a 9 or a 40 or 45. Your statement that carbines are so prolific that worries over what caliber is in your pistol is not as big a worry. Clearly logic would dictate that that is only true if all officers are carrying a carbine as a primary. Which we all know they are not. So the logic is flawed. Your logic is like sayingbecause some cars have airbags its no longer a concern if I wear a seatbelt in any car. Your logic implies you get to pick and choose your engagement and choose not to engage if you dont have a rifle.

[RUTGERS95 890]

Now to get back on track to a good old 9 vs 45 debate. Capacity vs alleged superior performace. Here is my thinking on the subject which is OPEN to change as I personally consider the merits of each. The reason I said a 2 BG gun or a 3 BG gun is that I think time has to be considered. You need a CNS shot or to inflict a lot of Hydraulic leakage to be effective. But just how long is someone going to stand there and let you shoot them? How good a shot are you under high stress? This is why most of the time if yuo ask me, I would indeed side with .45. Having chatted with a guy on a dept that has a higher rate of actual shootings then normal, he tells me that the .45ACP HST +P's are extremely effective and that the recovered diameter hovers near 1". So my logic is I simply may only get a few hits on that hostile moving target. And 9 or 11 rounds is likely enough to engage 2 BG's. But what if there are 3? Time and mikes, you may very well find yourself at slide lock after 2 BG's. But of course this opens the debate on the amount of time it takes to engage 3. It gets to be a stretch for sure. But since the discussion is therotical, its fodder for debate and speculation. I had previously held the position that a protracted gunfight for a civilian is an extreme unlikelyhood. I believe it still is, but like I said the Kenyan mall and the NYC incident to name a few, make it worth while to reconsider.

center mass shots, regardless of 9 or 45 will make enough of the BGs stop.  The amount of inertia on this area by either is statistically sound.  Under stress, I definitely want more shots in the chamber.  You never want to hear, 'click'

[Shane45 807]

Shawn, how much time do you think you have? I dont think most engagement go the route of standing toe to toe doing mag dumps....

[Shane45 807]

Rutgers, I would say that from my research that is mostly true but the edge does seem to go to the 45. So at what point is there a diminished return on capacity? What Im saying is that if Im going to get two shots in on the BG, Id rather they were .45's. I know that shootability is going to come up All I can say on that is I have an HK45CT and a P30 in 9, both LEM triggers. My fastest time on a plate rack with each is IDENTICAL! Roughly 12 yards, 5 8" plates. 4.2 seconds. I'm not a steel shooter, I just performed the test to see if I shot one better than the other. But Im in the 3.8's with a 1911 :D

[BlueLineFish 615]

Where i work backup sometimes isn't readily available yet alone another weapon. How much time do you think you have when the shtf. Based on your logic i guess its safe to assume you have never been in a situation like that. Stick to what you do and leave tactics up to those that have a clue

[Shane45 807]

(refering to my own previous post)

 

But this is where 2 BG or 3 BG comes in to play. Assume for a second it takes you 4 to 5 shots to get 2 hits. Thats 8+ shots for 2 bad guys. Low on ammo if a third comes your way before you can reload. And this is where the 9 becomes the answer if that is a real concern.

[RUTGERS95 890]

I hear you......great discussion guys

[Shane45 807]

And now to poke a little fun, this is how every dept rolls right? :D

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LsVWYS0mp4

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I figure most shoot out go down in seconds not minutes. But you guys are once again not reading what I'm saying. But rather looking to argue.