FBI dumping .40 and going to a 9mm

[High Exposure 5,664]

It appears as though the FBI is looking to remove all .40 weapons from service and replace with 9mm (I had heard that Federal HST 124gr +p is the round they are going to, the comments in the article seem to confirm that).

 

They have been conducting extensive ballistic testing and liked what they saw with the modern 9mm offerings. In the 1990s the FBI convinced the Law Enforcement world that 9mm was inadequate for its purposes and everyone switched to .40S&W. Well, it isn't 1990 any more and ammunition development has progressed tremendously. 9mm is no longer plagued with issues (poor penetration, expansion and fragmentation) that were solved by the adoption of the .40.

 

I am curious to see what the rest of the LEO world does. I have been trying to get my agency to switch for a while now with no traction from Admin and even some active resistance by Officer's claiming that a switch from .40 to 9mm would constitute an Officer Safety Issue

 

As I see it, longer weapon service life, cheaper ammo, softer shooting, more rounds on board, excellent terminal ballistics, everyone shoots it better - seems full of win to me, but what do I know...

 

http://pistol-training.com/archives/8798

FBI & 9mm

13-Dec-13 – 17:19 by ToddG

From a reliable, highly-placed source: A formal proposal to remove all .40-cal guns from service and replace them with 9mm is sitting on the FBI Director’s desk and is expected to be approved.

 

A new ammo procurement would begin in 2015.

 

More as I learn it…

 

[NYMetsFan86 9]

Anyone care to speculate how this will effect 9mm prices and availability for civilians?

[mipafox 438]

I never thought .40 was a good service or defensive cartridge compared to the alternatives, including 9mm and .45. 9mm can be snappy, .45 stays on target but pushes a little, .40 is very snappy and pushes a lot.

 

If I knew I only needed a few shots I'd carry .45, because it has the best of everything. But I don't, so I carry 9mm most of the time.

[tuktuk 16]

oh noooo not my fav caliber !!!

I love .40 !! all we need is a .40 !!!

never had a problem shooting .40

[HBecwithFn7 296]

It appears as though the FBI is looking to remove all .40 weapons from service and replace with 9mm (I had heard that Federal HST 124gr +p is the round they are going to, the comments in the article seem to confirm that).

 

Any indications as to their choice of weapon?  I assume either Glock or SIG (or maybe Beretta)?

[Blacksmythe 71]

I love 40 S&W! It is my favorite round. Well The DHS still uses it.........

[Damjan 73]

.........i guess now d be a good time to get into 40cal

[Shane45 807]

The move to 9 seems to be gaining momentum for sure. Seems a number of dept's are making the switch. The only touch of concern I would have for LE is intermediate barriers such as car doors and auto glass. As good as the 9 has gotten, from everything I have read, it still falls behind in this catagory.

[High Exposure 5,664]

The move to 9 seems to be gaining momentum for sure. Seems a number of dept's are making the switch. The only touch of concern I would have for LE is intermediate barriers such as car doors and auto glass. As good as the 9 has gotten, from everything I have read, it still falls behind in this catagory.

True. But no pistol rounds do well though intermediate boundaries. I have shot 9mm, .40, .357 sig, and .45 at multiple car doors at a VTAC class. None of them penetrated.

 

As far as auto glass, we did the same thing - shooting up multiple cars to see what works. All rounds, pistol and 5.56, performed similarly enough through the windshield and rear window that from a tactics standpoint they were all the same:

 

Shooting from inside to outside - make a hole in the glass with the first few rounds, push the muzzle through and go to work.

 

Shooting from outside in - aim a little high and put multiple rounds in as tight a group as possible as fast as you can keeping the group tight.

 

None of the rounds performed so well that there was confidence in only 1 or 2 rounds getting it done, so all rounds required high volume fire.

[iCARRY 0]

Love my 9mm's.

[plode 0]

A few departments around here have dumped the .40's, and have gone to .45 Glocks.  

[Vlad G 345]

I like .40 for a very specific and stupid reason. I can get full size magazines in NJ for most .40 S&W full size guns.  

 

That's a niche that the 9mm can't fill for me in this State.  I personally will gravitate towards the "biggest" bullet that gets me to full legal capacity. If we had 10rd limits I'd probably shooting 45 more. Its a taste thing, not a performance thing.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Vlad I totally agree with you. I don't wanna deal with hunting down mags. I have 2 .40's and both a good guns.

[lunker 274]

You may as well find 45's you like. When the Governor leaves office and we get his Democrat or RINO successor, we'll have 10 round (or less, like NY) mag limits faster than you can blink. I'm glad I'll be out of state by then.

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

Anyone care to speculate how this will effect 9mm prices and availability for civilians?

That was the first question that went through my mind when I read this. Just what we need, more pressure on 9mm ammo prices!

[tuktuk 16]

actually the Feds I know all carry sidearms in .357 Sig

[Malice4you 627]

I just read about a fairly large department in the midwest dumping the Gen2 Glock 23s for Gen4 19s, (or maybe g2 22s to g4 17s?).  Apparently the switch isn't costing them anything, department is trading in the old guns to Glock and getting $250 credit per gun, they're getting Blue Line (or below?) pricing, and a federal grant is paying for the difference. 

 

I got into shooting a few years ago.  I've never bought into the "9mm is weak" belief, as I've done some research into what modern loadings can do.  I may buy into the ".380 is underpowered" belief...but I will politely decline being shot by one...

 

I've got 9mm, .40, and .45, and plan to add a 10mm, 5.7x28, and maybe .357sig at some point.  I hope to never have to find how any of them do, but I would trust any of those calibers to stop someone.

[M4BGRINGO 139]

Cool, let us know when the FBI will be selling their old .40 cal handguns so we can pick them up cheap! 

[BlueLineFish 615]

we have carried 9mm for quite some time.  The winchester ranger 174gr jhp is our ammo of choice

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I believe the switch from .40 to 9mm is tragic.  I think it boils-down to a money issue as 9 costs less so you can train more on the same dime.  Jeff Cooper was right in his assessment of the FBI murders:  the 9mm did the job, the guys were DEAD, BUT they didn't die FAST enough from mortal wounds with the 9!  And something as simple as a Marlin .30-30 to go through the car seats while the Bad Guys were still seated in the vehicle would have ended the fight prior to two Agents being blown-away by DEAD MEN SHOOTING!  You can argue bullet expansion / new designs all you want, but I can point to a Congresswoman who got shot in the head near point-blank and is still walkin'-around makin trouble at Gun Shows........

 

Since Standards had been lowered to accommodate a certain level of mediocrity with respect to women FBI Agents failing to qualify with the 10mm, the .40 Short and Weak was invented (long before some of you were shooting, and some of you weren't yet born) for the express purpose of acceptable penetrating force to get to vitals.

 

In short, no matter what 9mm bullet gets invented, the heavier .40 will do a better job in most cases.  Especially the 180 grain flat point.  The wound channel and the shock of the heavier slug will do a more effective job.  The Agents just need to spend more time learning how to shoot, and a little less time learning how to be Lawyers... 

 

Well, you got my opinion.  Sometimes when you ask for opinions, you don't like what you get.  If it were up to me, I'd have an Armorer outfit a Division with tricked-out 2011 Para P-16's with 19 round mags and one in the pipe....maybe they could figure how to shoot straighter?

[illy 1]

I've only been shooting for a few years, but I've researched the 9 vs 40 vs 45 debate a lot.

I have guns in 9 and 45. No 40s and no plans to ever get one.

I just haven't seen a convincing argument that it brings anything to the table that the other two don't.

 

But more importantly, .357 mag...

[bennj 215]

Good, more .40 for us civies

[High Exposure 5,664]

And something as simple as a Marlin .30-30 to go through the car seats while the Bad Guys were still seated in the vehicle would have ended the fight prior to two Agents being blown-away by DEAD MEN SHOOTING!

Not for nothing, but that is apples to oranges. Yes a .30-30 might have solved the problem sooner, then again it may not have. Regardless, a .30-30 isn't a pistol round.

 

You can argue bullet expansion / new designs all you want, but I can point to a Congresswoman who got shot in the head near point-blank and is still walkin'-around makin trouble at Gun Shows........

 

In all fairness, I can find examples of plenty of folks walking around after being shot (head included) in any pistol caliber. That includes an account of .45ACP bouncing off the perps brain pan on an entry, another identical case with a 9mm from an MP5, and a through and through with .357 Mag contact shot to the forehead with the victim still talking and walking when the Cops arrived). In any event, Rep. Giffords is still alive, but hypothetically, if she had been an aggressor was she in any condition to continue her behavior after that round to her head? That shot, while not fatal was disabling. You can't take the "heroic measures" taken by Doctos post-shooting into account when determining the effectiveness of a round.

 

Question: What do most people shot with a handgun die from?

 

 

 

Answer: Old age.

[M4BGRINGO 139]

I would have said lead poisoning, and guess I may have been wrong..........

[illy 1]

In any event, Rep. Giffords is still alive, but hypothetically, if she had been an aggressor was she in any condition to continue her behavior after that round to her head? That shot, while not fatal was disabling. You can't take the "heroic measures" taken by Doctos post-shooting into account when determining the effectiveness of a round.

 

 

An excellent point.

If you're shooting someone in a defensive situation, the goal is rapid incapacitation. If they die, so be it, but that's not what you're aiming for (no pun intended).

[High Exposure 5,664]

An excellent point.

If you're shooting someone in a defensive situation, the goal is rapid incapacitation. If they die, so be it, but that's not what you're aiming for (no pun intended).

Exactly. And in my opinion, that rapid incapacitation relies more on shot placement than caliber (assuming we are talking about service caliber - .38/.357, 9mm, .40, .45, .44) and number of shots to a critical area in a limited time.

 

Ex: 8 rounds of 9mm to the center of the chest in under 3 seconds will incapacitate faster than 5 rounds of .45 to the same area on the same time.

[voyager9 3,434]

So what changed in the 9mm round to change so many opinions?

[Vlad G 345]

So what changed in the 9mm round to change so many opinions?

 

Ammunition quality.

[Shane45 807]

Actual shooting statistics....

[Vlad G 345]

Actual shooting statistics....

 

Well .. sure. On the other hand .22 kills a lot of people, I think more then any other cartridge? Are you saying the FBI should move to it?