FBI dumping .40 and going to a 9mm

[Combat Auto 174]

I have done a decent amount of reading about the effectiveness of 45 acp in war. The track record is long and very impressive. Yes, there are always statistical tail-end events where someone knows someone who knew a cop whose partner shot a 6'6" degenerate in the head with a 45 who didn’t go down - but they are very rare. Alternatively, we all know the history of the 9mm's questionable stopping power. With the modern 9 it supposed to be better, but I'll stick with a proven track record of over 100 years of war (and that is with Ball, so HP, +P and all that stuff makes it more potent).

 

For an enthusiast, which I suppose most of us here may qualify for, 45 is the way to go. Especially for personal/home defense. If you get in a CQB situation, you want to end it fast.

 

For a police department, it is a whole other issue where HE’s points may be valid in many situations. But as a civilian, I am not particularly worried about long weapon life, or cheap ammo. And if you shoot your 45 out of an all steel 1911 the gun will likely outlast you with a little TLC. Shooting a 45 might take more practice, but as enthusiasts this is not an issue (if say your wife is not an enthusiast and doesn’t want to practice much a 9mm makes more sense).

 

The higher round count for the 9mm is an advantage to a degree, but I honestly would trade off 1 45 round for at least 2 9mm because of the proven stopping power of the 45. Also, there isn’t a lot of benefit of spraying upteen 9mm rounds all over the place in a personal defense situation. You have got to hit your target. Also, there is such a thing as a reload. So for a civilian, I do not give much wait to what might seem a big benefit of the 9mm magazine.

 

Nobody ever wins a caliber discussion because there are many variables and tastes, but the old saying: Shoot the biggest round you shoot well, applies particularly to a civilian shooter in a potential “once in a lifetime encounter”. The decision for arming an entire police department takes on some of the same, but many other issues.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

 

 

My ammo distributor has most of the law enforcement accounts in the area. Last buck shot I got was this. But he also has Remington, Remington low recoil and slugs. So it's safe to say they get a variety.

 

 

What ammo do you use? LE 9 pellet buck?

[checko 180]

Yeah thats why I was asking.

 

I have low recoil 00 at home as well as some le marked stuff.

[High Exposure 5,671]

Yup. We use that and Hornady TAP 00B.

 

I really want to get my hands on some of the new-ish Federal Flight Control #1 buckshot.

 

Dr. Gary Roberts:

The new Federal #1 buckshot, 15 pellet, 1100 fps "Flight Control" load (LE132-1B) offers IDEAL terminal performance for LE and self-defense use and is the best option for those who need to use shot shells for such purposes. In bare gel, all 15 of the 30 caliber plated pellets penetrate in the 14-18 inch range.

 

Through an automobile windshield at 3 meters, 2 badly deformed pellets were noted at 5", 3 pellets were at 8-9", while the remaining 10 pellets were found at 12.5-15"--not bad for a buckshot load. Keep in mind that slugs are the preferred option when engaging threats inside vehicles.

 

In bare gel when shot from 3 meters, we again saw penetration of all the pellets from 14-18".

[Combat Auto 174]

I have done a decent amount of reading about the effectiveness of 45 acp in war. The track record is long and very impressive. Yes, there are always statistical tail-end events where someone knows someone who knew a cop whose partner shot a 6'6" degenerate in the head with a 45 who didn’t go down - but they are very rare. Alternatively, we all know the history of the 9mm's questionable stopping power. With the modern 9 it supposed to be better, but I'll stick with a proven track record of over 100 years of war (and that is with Ball, so HP, +P and all that stuff makes it more potent).

 

For an enthusiast, which I suppose most of us here may qualify for, 45 is the way to go. Especially for personal/home defense. If you get in a CQB situation, you want to end it fast.

 

For a police department, it is a whole other issue where HE’s points may be valid in many situations. But as a civilian, I am not particularly worried about long weapon life, or cheap ammo. And if you shoot your 45 out of an all steel 1911 the gun will likely outlast you with a little TLC. Shooting a 45 might take more practice, but as enthusiasts this is not an issue (if say your wife is not an enthusiast and doesn’t want to practice much a 9mm makes more sense).

 

The higher round count for the 9mm is an advantage to a degree, but I honestly would trade off 1 45 round for at least 2 9mm because of the proven stopping power of the 45. Also, there isn’t a lot of benefit of spraying upteen 9mm rounds all over the place in a personal defense situation. You have got to hit your target. Also, there is such a thing as a reload. So for a civilian, I do not give much wait to what might seem a big benefit of the 9mm magazine.

 

Nobody ever wins a caliber discussion because there are many variables and tastes, but the old saying: Shoot the biggest round you shoot well, applies particularly to a civilian shooter in a potential “once in a lifetime encounter”. The decision for arming an entire police department takes on some of the same, but many other issues.

BTW, Down here in these parts the Police Department runs 45 acp...The Capt. in charge of armorments was at my house last summer and he said that he specifies 45 acp but gives the potrolment some flexibility on what make/model. Most of them chooze 1911s. He was running a TRP.

[Vlad G 345]

That's why you still find a 12gauge in police car racks in most towns. I use the gauge for all animal calls like that.

 

Right tool for the right job.

 

Interestingly the police force that has to deal with big animals more then any other, the Alaska state troopers, carry Glocks 22's. Some of them up there carry 21s, but the shotgun is definitely around.  My understanding is that their handguns are doing fine when that is all that they have, and they sure do have big beasties up there.

[RUTGERS95 890]

What broscience do you use to figure out that LEO on a whole are terrible shots. Sure there a some who can't shoot. Most can. Did you ever shoot in a high stress situation. I don't mean jacked up on Mountain Dew after a long session on call of duty. Get real life experience with firearms and high stress situation then talk. If you knew about it your opinion would be very different.

this is pertinent in all of these situations.  stress, adrenaline, mind racing can all have negative affects on accuracy and outcome.  bears keeping in mind

[RUTGERS95 890]

I have done a decent amount of reading about the effectiveness of 45 acp in war. The track record is long and very impressive. Yes, there are always statistical tail-end events where someone knows someone who knew a cop whose partner shot a 6'6" degenerate in the head with a 45 who didn’t go down - but they are very rare. Alternatively, we all know the history of the 9mm's questionable stopping power. With the modern 9 it supposed to be better, but I'll stick with a proven track record of over 100 years of war (and that is with Ball, so HP, +P and all that stuff makes it more potent).

 

For an enthusiast, which I suppose most of us here may qualify for, 45 is the way to go. Especially for personal/home defense. If you get in a CQB situation, you want to end it fast.

 

For a police department, it is a whole other issue where HE’s points may be valid in many situations. But as a civilian, I am not particularly worried about long weapon life, or cheap ammo. And if you shoot your 45 out of an all steel 1911 the gun will likely outlast you with a little TLC. Shooting a 45 might take more practice, but as enthusiasts this is not an issue (if say your wife is not an enthusiast and doesn’t want to practice much a 9mm makes more sense).

 

The higher round count for the 9mm is an advantage to a degree, but I honestly would trade off 1 45 round for at least 2 9mm because of the proven stopping power of the 45. Also, there isn’t a lot of benefit of spraying upteen 9mm rounds all over the place in a personal defense situation. You have got to hit your target. Also, there is such a thing as a reload. So for a civilian, I do not give much wait to what might seem a big benefit of the 9mm magazine.

 

Nobody ever wins a caliber discussion because there are many variables and tastes, but the old saying: Shoot the biggest round you shoot well, applies particularly to a civilian shooter in a potential “once in a lifetime encounter”. The decision for arming an entire police department takes on some of the same, but many other issues.

if you did this research then you would have seen the military doctor records on kill wounds which found 9mm just as effective with comparable shot placement.  plenty of people hit .45 vs 9mm that walked away and likewise for 9mm vs .45.  In a firefight, the last thing you want is no more ammo.  With modern bullets and powders, .45 offers little advantage over the increased mag count afforded by 9mm.

[RUTGERS95 890]

Interestingly the police force that has to deal with big animals more then any other, the Alaska state troopers, carry Glocks 22's. Some of them up there carry 21s, but the shotgun is definitely around.  My understanding is that their handguns are doing fine when that is all that they have, and they sure do have big beasties up there.

I've done a lot of reading on hunting in Alaska, read various state reports etc and this statement is misleading.  A charging bear will need a caliber with enough stopping power to shatter bones and create great internal damage to drop him.  A .40 just isn't doing with enough certainty to say this is fine for them as they all have 12 slug in possession when out in country.  You would need to hit the bear through the mouth (due to location of brain) to guarantee a kill with any caliber lower than .357 magnum (absolute bear minimum and still not preferred by the hunting community up there).  A bears skull unstripped, in tests, has shown that .45 ricochet off of it enough times to create angst up there. 

 

Black bears are another matter but brown bears avg 700lbs with many being 1k plus.  Under 50 yards, bear coming at you, you had better have a much bigger bullet and you better have more than enough to guarantee a stop. 

 

I will see if I can find the stuff I was reading no too long ago as we were thinking of an Alaska trip and I wanted to go in country and did a ton of research on this.

 

Luckily, most bears will leave you alone provided you are not near cubs or near the main feeding areas of the streams etc.. 

[Shane45 807]

In the case of military engagement, the 45 actually makes more sense in some applications because all they have going for them is diameter in a FMJ world.

[Combat Auto 174]

if you did this research then you would have seen the military doctor records on kill wounds which found 9mm just as effective with comparable shot placement.  plenty of people hit .45 vs 9mm that walked away and likewise for 9mm vs .45.  In a firefight, the last thing you want is no more ammo.  With modern bullets and powders, .45 offers little advantage over the increased mag count afforded by 9mm.

There are studies, there is common sense, and there is a 100 year track record in war. I have never seen any such result in a war study where 9mm is effective as 45acp (especially FMJ). Your welcome to your 9mm if that is what you shoot well, for PD/HD I'll take the 45 - it is what I shoot well...The vast majority of PD encounters will end in less then the number of rounds in any 45. One study indicates the average number of rounds fired in civilian defense situations is 2.2.  Same study indicates that ~50% of the encounters were at home. Shooting19 rounds of 9mm around the house or in public for that matter not a good idea (a person would probably cause much collateral damage). The idea is to end the fight and end it fast. 9mm magazine capacity is highly overated for real-life civilian encouters (it is good for shooting paper targets at USPSA though). I'll take the fatter bullets.

[Parker 213]

The .45 ACP on grizzly: http://straightforwardinacrookedworld.blogspot.com/2010/07/45-acp-big-bear-medicine.html

[pjd832 146]

In the case of military engagement, the 45 actually makes more sense in some applications because all they have going for them is diameter in a FMJ world.

hence the m45meusoc

[RUTGERS95 890]

The .45 ACP on grizzly: http://straightforwardinacrookedworld.blogspot.com/2010/07/45-acp-big-bear-medicine.html

yeah there are always exceptions just like the .22 encounter but you do not want a .45 with a charging grizzly.  plenty of hunter forums with actual experience, studies with testing etc that will corroborate this. 

 

the only truly effective deterrent on record has been the bear spray with zero fatalities on record when discharged.  There is not a single case of a person in Alaska that discharged this spray that has been killed per Alaska game records.  That is not the case with pistol caliber firings.  I read somewhere that a charging bear, with the adrenaline etc, can still run 50 yards and attack when clinically dead.  Shooting the charging bear actually increases the danger US wildlife service found and more than 50% of shooting encounters resulted in injuries, I'll see if I can find it.  That is why you need something that can gets deep and shatters bones, muscles, and vital organs as that stops a charging bear. 

 

Like I said, I did a lot of research on this for a trip but that was a few years ago....wish I had gone....much of this from memory however

[RUTGERS95 890]

There are studies, there is common sense, and there is a 100 year track record in war. I have never seen any such result in a war study where 9mm is effective as 45acp (especially FMJ). Your welcome to your 9mm if that is what you shoot well, for PD/HD I'll take the 45 - it is what I shoot well...The vast majority of PD encounters will end in less then the number of rounds in any 45. One study indicates the average number of rounds fired in civilian defense situations is 2.2.  Same study indicates that ~50% of the encounters were at home. Shooting19 rounds of 9mm around the house or in public for that matter not a good idea (a person would probably cause much collateral damage). The idea is to end the fight and end it fast. 9mm magazine capacity is highly overated for real-life civilian encouters (it is good for shooting paper targets at USPSA though). I'll take the fatter bullets.

I can see some of this with assailants on drugs given physics of it but I'd like to see those studies relative to pd and fewer rounds a .45 can hold.  Not saying I don't believe you or doubting it happens but I don't recall hearing many stories or reading stories/reports where pd didn't unload their sidearm as you shoot to kill when you shoot.  I believe some states/departments train that when you fire, you do controlled shots until threat is down and we all know in that situation, the finger will often keep pulling until you hear click and need to reload.

[Vlad G 345]

I've done a lot of reading on hunting in Alaska, read various state reports etc and this statement is misleading.  A charging bear will need a caliber with enough stopping power to shatter bones and create great internal damage to drop him.  A .40 just isn't doing with enough certainty to say this is fine for them as they all have 12 slug in possession when out in country.  You would need to hit the bear through the mouth (due to location of brain) to guarantee a kill with any caliber lower than .357 magnum (absolute bear minimum and still not preferred by the hunting community up there).  A bears skull unstripped, in tests, has shown that .45 ricochet off of it enough times to create angst up there. 

 

Black bears are another matter but brown bears avg 700lbs with many being 1k plus.  Under 50 yards, bear coming at you, you had better have a much bigger bullet and you better have more than enough to guarantee a stop. 

 

I will see if I can find the stuff I was reading no too long ago as we were thinking of an Alaska trip and I wanted to go in country and did a ton of research on this.

 

Luckily, most bears will leave you alone provided you are not near cubs or near the main feeding areas of the streams etc.. 

 

 

Err how is my statement misleading. I state a FACT about what cartridge and platform the Alaskan troopers are using. I didn't make an argument about bullet design or things I've read about bears, I state that the people who do that more then most carry .40 handguns. BTW Moose are also HUGE and they are grumpy and just as likely to stomp your butt as bears, if not more so.  I think it is fair to say they need to deal with big animals more then anyone else. Yes, if they have a choice they will get the shotgun from the trunk, but for those times when they don't get that choice apparently they don't feel the need for a .45 or .500.

 

PS: when I went hiking in  Alaska, I carried a .40 with DoubleTap ammo that makes .40 behave like a 10mm, and yes we carried spray as well. I can personally inform you then when you turn a corner and see a bear 20-30 yards away you will feel unarmed with a howitzer.

[Howard 538]

OK, let me end this right here and right now!  The 9mm, .40 cal S&W, .45ACP even the lowly .22LR are all FAR SUPERIOR to what Liberal Democrats in the People's Republic of New Jersey want you to able to use!!!!

[High Exposure 5,671]

I can see some of this with assailants on drugs given physics of it but I'd like to see those studies relative to pd and fewer rounds a .45 can hold.  Not saying I don't believe you or doubting it happens but I don't recall hearing many stories or reading stories/reports where pd didn't unload their sidearm as you shoot to kill when you shoot.  I believe some states/departments train that when you fire, you do controlled shots until threat is down and we all know in that situation, the finger will often keep pulling until you hear click and need to reload.

Point of Order - We are trained to shoot to stop the aggressor's actions, not to kill. A very important distinction shared by everyone that carries a gun be it Police, CCW, or someone defending their home.

 

Yes, often times that means aim at the center of mass of the biggest peice of meat we can see and press the trigger until it you achieve the desired results: a change in behavior - namely stop trying to seriously injure or kill me or someone else. The human body is an amazing and resilient machine, surpassed only by the human mind. The mind can keep someone in a fight long after their body has died. There are plenty of instances where the assailant continues to fight long after they should have died and the ME, or sometimes ER/Trauma Surgein determines that the badguy was hit by multiple "fatal rounds" that just weren't immediately fatal. There are also plenty of instances where one or two rounds has stopped the fight (the last few police shootings in central NJ were of the 1-3 round variety) There are even instances where a complete miss has ended the fight. The only constant in a gunfight is that the badguy gets the final vote on when the fight is over and they only way to determine that is by observing their actions. If his/her actions continue to be a threat - keep firing. You typically will not see your hits, so the only indication that your intervention is working - ie you are getting hits, and your hits are in a critical area - is your target's behavior.

[millsan1 3]

What is the appropriate round for circumcising a flying gnat at 35 paces? I prefer the 454 Casull.

 

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

 

[RUTGERS95 890]

Point of Order - We are trained to shoot to stop the aggressor's actions, not to kill. A very important distinction shared by everyone that carries a gun be it Police, CCW, or someone defending their home.

 

Yes, often times that means aim at the center of mass of the biggest peice of meat we can see and press the trigger until it you achieve the desired results: a change in behavior - namely stop trying to seriously injure or kill me or someone else. The human body is an amazing and resilient machine, surpassed only by the human mind. The mind can keep someone in a fight long after their body has died. There are plenty of instances where the assailant continues to fight long after they should have died and the ME, or sometimes ER/Trauma Surgein determines that the badguy was hit by multiple "fatal rounds" that just weren't immediately fatal. There are also plenty of instances where one or two rounds has stopped the fight (the last few police shootings in central NJ were of the 1-3 round variety) There are even instances where a complete miss has ended the fight. The only constant in a gunfight is that the badguy gets the final vote on when the fight is over and they only way to determine that is by observing their actions. If his/her actions continue to be a threat - keep firing. You typically will not see your hits, so the only indication that your intervention is working - ie you are getting hits, and your hits are in a critical area - is your target's behavior.

 

yes I should have clarified that better.....

[RUTGERS95 890]

Err how is my statement misleading. I state a FACT about what cartridge and platform the Alaskan troopers are using. I didn't make an argument about bullet design or things I've read about bears, I state that the people who do that more then most carry .40 handguns. BTW Moose are also HUGE and they are grumpy and just as likely to stomp your butt as bears, if not more so.  I think it is fair to say they need to deal with big animals more then anyone else. Yes, if they have a choice they will get the shotgun from the trunk, but for those times when they don't get that choice apparently they don't feel the need for a .45 or .500.

 

PS: when I went hiking in  Alaska, I carried a .40 with DoubleTap ammo that makes .40 behave like a 10mm, and yes we carried spray as well. I can personally inform you then when you turn a corner and see a bear 20-30 yards away you will feel unarmed with a howitzer.

only that you inferred it (.40) was good enough which it is not.

 

agree on the howitzer....lol

 

Bears can cover 50 yards in 3 seconds and can still fight when dead for 15-30 seconds.  There are reports of bears being hit in the head and knocked out only to get up and maul the shooter who thought the bear was dead.  They can be impressive killers.  

[RUTGERS95 890]

damn this discussion has renewed my interest in an interior trip. 

 

One interesting note, if you do not secure your food, trash, or lodging per state wildlife rules and a bear becomes aggressive, you cannot legally kill it in Alaska....nuts

[Respect2A 0]

 

One interesting note, if you do not secure your food, trash, or lodging per state wildlife rules and a bear becomes aggressive, you cannot legally kill it in Alaska....nuts

I find that hard to believe.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I'd rather go to court then be burried.

[RUTGERS95 890]

I find that hard to believe.

google it....

 

 

or just read this...     http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=livingwithbears.conflicts

 

If You Have a Problem With a Bear Around Your Home or Cabin

If in spite of your best prevention efforts a bear is causing a problem around your home and cabin, here are a few things you can do to get it to leave.

• First make sure that you and your family are in a safe spot (inside a house or vehicle, or standing close together with 3 or more people).
• Make noise (yell, bang pans, etc.) to scare the bear.
• If the bear is not threatening, watch it and try to figure out why it is attracted to your home or camp. Fix the problem after the bear leaves. You can call your local Fish and Game office for suggestions.
• If the bear is a threat to a person's life or your property you may either call the Police (911), your local Fish and Game office, and/or shoot the bear yourself.
• Remember, if the bear has been attracted to your home or camp by improperly stored food or garbage, it can NOT be legally killed.

[RUTGERS95 890]

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=livingwithbears.bearharmony

 

It is against the law to feed bears. The law states, “A person may not intentionally feed a moose, deer, elk, bear, wolf, coyote, fox, or wolverine, or negligently leave human food, animal food, or garbage in a manner that attracts these animals.” It is also against the law to kill a bear you have attracted by improperly storing human food, animal food, or garbage.

 

If you have to kill the bear, you will face an inquiry and if found that the bear's death resulted in negligence on the part of the shooter, you get into trouble

[Respect2A 0]

I was right. In your original statement you said "and a bear becomes aggressive, you cannot legally kill it in Alaska"

 

If you read the guideline/rule above the one you highlighted it says you can shoot the bear if it becomes a threat to a life or property.

 

No you simply can't shoot a bear who is ripping thru your trash because you left it out. But if the bear gets aggressive, then you can shoot it.

 

Huge difference from what you said.

[illy 1]

What is the appropriate round for circumcising a flying gnat at 35 paces? I prefer the 454 Casull.

 

^This, all day.

 

http://www.adn.com/2009/08/13/897940/twig-snap-alerts-dog-walker-to.html

 

The slightest noise -- a twig snapping -- prompted Brush to glance over his shoulder. Less than 20 yards away, a brown bear was charging, "ears back, head low and motorin' full speed.

"Came with zero warning," Brush said. "No woof, no popping of the teeth, no standing up, nothing like what you think."

Brush said he wears a pistol on his walks because bears have chased his dogs in the past.

He drew a Ruger .454 Casull revolver. There was no time to aim, barely time to squeeze the trigger. He's not sure whether he got off two shots or three, but one proved fatal.

"Total luck shot," he said.

"It doesn't get any closer. He slid by me on his chin when I shot him," Brush said. "I was backpedaling as fast as I could. I wasn't even aiming. I tripped over my own feet as I pulled the trigger."

He estimated that the animal weighed 900-plus pounds, and was 15 to 20 years old.

Read more here: http://www.adn.com/2009/08/13/897940/twig-snap-alerts-dog-walker-to.html#storylink=cpy

[illy 1]

 

google it....

 

 

or just read this...     http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=livingwithbears.conflicts

 

If You Have a Problem With a Bear Around Your Home or Cabin

If in spite of your best prevention efforts a bear is causing a problem around your home and cabin, here are a few things you can do to get it to leave.

• First make sure that you and your family are in a safe spot (inside a house or vehicle, or standing close together with 3 or more people).
• Make noise (yell, bang pans, etc.) to scare the bear.
• If the bear is not threatening, watch it and try to figure out why it is attracted to your home or camp. Fix the problem after the bear leaves. You can call your local Fish and Game office for suggestions.
• If the bear is a threat to a person's life or your property you may either call the Police (911), your local Fish and Game office, and/or shoot the bear yourself.
• Remember, if the bear has been attracted to your home or camp by improperly stored food or garbage, it can NOT be legally killed.

 

 

 

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=livingwithbears.bearharmony

 

It is against the law to feed bears. The law states, “A person may not intentionally feed a moose, deer, elk, bear, wolf, coyote, fox, or wolverine, or negligently leave human food, animal food, or garbage in a manner that attracts these animals.” It is also against the law to kill a bear you have attracted by improperly storing human food, animal food, or garbage.

 

If you have to kill the bear, you will face an inquiry and if found that the bear's death resulted in negligence on the part of the shooter, you get into trouble

 

 

I was right. In your original statement you said "and a bear becomes aggressive, you cannot legally kill it in Alaska"

 

If you read the guideline/rule above the one you highlighted it says you can shoot the bear if it becomes a threat to a life or property.

 

No you simply can't shoot a bear who is ripping thru your trash because you left it out. But if the bear gets aggressive, then you can shoot it.

 

Huge difference from what you said.

 

The purpose of that statute is probably to prevent people from baiting bear and shooting them.

[RUTGERS95 890]

I was right. In your original statement you said "and a bear becomes aggressive, you cannot legally kill it in Alaska"

 

If you read the guideline/rule above the one you highlighted it says you can shoot the bear if it becomes a threat to a life or property.

 

No you simply can't shoot a bear who is ripping thru your trash because you left it out. But if the bear gets aggressive, then you can shoot it.

 

Huge difference from what you said.

huh?  this is what I said, 'One interesting note, if you do not secure your food, trash, or lodging per state wildlife rules and a bear becomes aggressive, you cannot legally kill it in Alaska."   You must be a democrat with only partial quotes...lol

 

what part of if you negligently attract a bear and it results in it's death that it's illegal to kill it are you not getting?  It's pretty black and white.  I don't know what the penalty is but the law is the law.  You leave trash around or some other stupid careless act that attracts a bear resulting in it's death, it's an illegal kill.

 

everything I've said is factual here.