Concealed Carry for Women... and the Sad Dearth of Good Options

[Guest]

Oh, dear! I log into NJ Gun Forums, and what do I see?  @gloom has (quite innocently, I'm sure) named and shamed me!  I should know better than to state my goals on the Internet. I'm waaaay behind my previously stated schedule. 

In my defense, my carry plans were totally obliterated by other gun stuff!  Honestly? For me, it all comes down to moolah. I put myself on a strict budget when it comes to gun purchases, and then I prioritize them. This winter I was instead buying dies, an electronic scale, and various other reloading components to support my new rifle obsession. (Damn, even when you get good deals...everything is soooo costly!) So, I was simply in no position to be buying another gun. 

That said, I can't say I've done "nothing" re: carry. I've tried out (both borrowed and rented) several gun models. I also spent many days in my house wearing my (full-size) 1911 in borrowed holsters (thanks, @High Exposure for those loaners) - simply to get a sense of what wearing a holster felt like (because I'd never worn one before). After all of that, I have definitely come to "general conclusions". I'll end up with a .380 for sure. And once I make the final pick, I'll undoubtedly end up with several methods of carry - an IWB holster, a pocket holster, a cross-carry concealed carry purse, and probably a concealed carry purse that goes around the waist, too. (So that's a big expense in and of itself - just all those holsters!) I realize that also means a TON of extra practice (even if it's dry fire at home) to be competent with all methods, but I've decided it's just a necessity due to my wardrobe: "it is what it is". 

As far as which gun - the jury is still out but I'm getting closer. I ruled out the Walther PDP-F and micro 1911s. I shoot the Sig P365 P238 well & I do appreciate the nice, quality feel of it (my hesitancy is the price coupled with the low # of rounds). I haven't yet tried the EZ in .380 (I liked the EZ in 9, but the slide was still a bit too tight) or the Ruger LCP Max (of interest to me mainly because of its 10-round capacity) - they just didn't happen to have those last 2 models available where/when I rented - but I will try both before a decision is made.

My winter goals have clearly morphed into spring/summer goals. Sorry to disappoint with my slow-poke pace... please forgive me, gloom!  

[Guest]

@Mrs. Peel,I recently picked up a Sig P365XL in 9mm. Only 1/2" longer slide and it comes with 10 round double stack mags, 12 rounds in America. Something to consider for sure if you liked the P365. I also have a Sig P938, a 7 or 8 round tiny 1911 style pistol very similar to the Kimber. It even uses Kimber mags!  I found I did not shoot that gun well because it was too small and therefore extremely snappy. 

[High Exposure 5,689]

28 minutes ago, Mrs. Peel said:

As far as which gun - the jury is still out but I'm getting closer. I ruled out the Walther PDP-F and micro 1911s. I shoot the Sig P365 well & I do appreciate the nice, quality feel of it (my hesitancy is the price coupled with the low # of rounds). I haven't yet tried the EZ in .380 (I liked the EZ in 9, but the slide was still a bit too tight) or the Ruger LCP Max (of interest to me mainly because of it's 10-round capacity) - they just didn't happen to have those last 2 models available where/when I rented - but I will try both before a decision is made.

My winter goals have clearly morphed into spring/summer goals. Sorry to disappoint with my slow-poke pace... please forgive me, gloom!  

I thought you liked the Sig micro 1911 in .380? You shot that the best out of everything I saw you shoot.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, High Exposure said:

I thought you liked the Sig micro 1911 in .380? You shot that the best out of everything I saw you shoot.

Oops! I stand corrected. I accidentally confused the P238 with the P365. Thank you! What would I do without "the experts at my elbow"? Seriously! LOL.

[Guest]

One thing to consider with the EZ. If you have a compromised gripping ability, be sure you can reliably deactivate the grip safety. 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Mrs. Peel said:

Oh, dear! I log into NJ Gun Forums, and what do I see?  @gloom has (quite innocently, I'm sure) named and shamed me!  I should know better than to state my goals on the Internet. I'm waaaay behind my previously stated schedule. 

Oh, I didn't intend to shame. It was just an interesting thread. (A thread on threads?) And it's good to store information in case I come across someone with similar challenges. 

It's probably actually good to state your goals publicly. Feedback, encouragement (or discouragement if appropriate), timeline, accountability, and just a record of where you were and what has changed. 

Electronic powder scales are not inexpensive! Mine is a basic manual beam scale. Since the cost and availability of primers changed dramatically, I moved away from reloading. Also switched from shooting .223 to .22LR in Steel Challenge. Then some action pistol matches.

For me carry is easy because I don't care that it prints and I'm not very stylish! Haha Strong side OWB is always easy. Appendix is a real balancing act!

Anyway, I understand the shift in focus and wanting to figure it all out in advance. Although it might help to just get that carry purse when you can and just start using it. The first steps always seem to be the hardest.

[Guest]

On 3/9/2024 at 12:37 PM, Mrs. Peel said:

Oops! I stand corrected. I accidentally confused the P238 with the P365. Thank you! What would I do without "the experts at my elbow"? Seriously! LOL.

Have you tried a P365 in .380? I imagine it would feel similar to the P238. It can be gotten with or without a thumb safety and it comes optics-ready without losing the rear sight. 

(I'd get the one with the thumb safety because it can be easily removed if I change my mind. Plus, even though having a safety can become an issue in a panic, it can be convenient if the pistol needs to be stored outside of a holster.)

I was trying to get my wife to switch to some version of a P365 to encourage her to keep it on her body 100% of the time instead of removing it when she gets into a car. I figure slimmer and lighter would help based on how she carries. 

Screenshot attached of a P238 (blue) over a P365 (green). They're also similar weight, but the P365 holds 10. EDIT: The P365 also has a slightly longer sight radius, looking at the rear sight. 

[45Doll 5,925]

This is a cautionary tale especially for women about concealed carry gone wrong. I saw this on the news a couple days ago.

A terrible accident provides an essential lesson - American Thinker

[Guest]

Sorry if it's been posted already, but there must be purses specifically designed for conceal carry no?  With a built in "holster"on the inside that protects and covers the trigger?

Maybe not as ideal as carrying on body but substantially better than not carrying at all.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, gleninjersey said:

Sorry if it's been posted already, but there must be purses specifically designed for conceal carry no?  With a built in "holster"on the inside that protects and covers the trigger?

Maybe not as ideal as carrying on body but substantially better than not carrying at all.

Yes, there definitely are carry specific purses and bags. There are also other ways to make it safer, like clipping in a holster or trigger cover, and at the very minimum (if the trigger isn't covered) a manual safety that isn't easily bumped off. 

[Guest]

On 3/9/2024 at 12:37 PM, Mrs. Peel said:

Oops! I stand corrected. I accidentally confused the P238 with the P365. Thank you! What would I do without "the experts at my elbow"? Seriously! LOL.

Check out the s&w csx

[Guest]

On 3/31/2024 at 5:34 PM, gleninjersey said:

Sorry if it's been posted already, but there must be purses specifically designed for conceal carry no?  With a built in "holster"on the inside that protects and covers the trigger?

Maybe not as ideal as carrying on body but substantially better than not carrying at all.

Here's the most minimalistic option that I can think of at the moment. Just tie it to something and when the pistol is pulled away the cover will/should come off. 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, gloom said:

Here's the most minimalistic option that I can think of at the moment. Just tie it to something and when the pistol is pulled away the cover will/should come off. 

Sadly that is insufficient for NJ purposes. NJ's definition of a holster has to cover the body of the firearm too. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Mr.Stu said:

Sadly that is insufficient for NJ purposes. NJ's definition of a holster has to cover the body of the firearm too. 

Is there actually a law requiring a holster of that definition? 

BTW, my sister asked me a question that I'm curious about. Does NJ approve of conceal carrying two firearm at once?

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, gloom said:

Is there actually a law requiring a holster of that definition? 

BTW, my sister asked me a question that I'm curious about. Does NJ approve of conceal carrying two firearm at once?

It is in the statute:

2C:58-4 Permits to carry handguns.
...
 h.   For purposes of this section, "holster" means a device or sheath that securely retains a handgun which, at a minimum, conceals and protects the main body of the firearm, maintains the firearm in a consistent and accessible position, and renders the trigger covered and inaccessible while the handgun is fully seated in the holster.

...and carrying without the gun being in a holster is illegal:

2C:58-4.4 Safety requirements, handgun carry.

   5.   Safe carry requirements for authorized holders of a permit to carry a handgun.
 
   a.   The holder of a permit to carry a handgun issued pursuant to N.J.S.2C:58-4 shall not:
 
   (1) use or consume alcohol, a cannabis item, or a controlled substance while carrying a handgun;
 
   (2) be under the influence of alcohol, cannabis, or a controlled substance while carrying a handgun;
 
   (3) carry a handgun in public outside of a holster or carry a handgun in public in a holster that does not meet the requirements of subsection h. of N.J.S.2C:58-4;
 
    (4) carry more than two firearms under the permittee's control at one time; or
 
   (5) engage in an unjustified display of a handgun.
 
   A violation of this subsection shall be a crime of the fourth degree, and any such violation shall constitute full and sufficient grounds for revocation of a permit to carry a handgun issued pursuant to N.J.S.2C:58-4.

 

[Guest]

Interested in this discussion (hopefully without sidetracking the thread too much). I have an Elite forward-facing fanny pack with an internal velcro 'holster' for running and now I am wondering if it's legit. For the record, I've tried a belly band for running but it prints too much.

https://elitesurvival.com/collections/concealed-carry-bags-packs/products/marathon-gun-pack?variant=36966185173160

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Xtors said:

Interested in this discussion (hopefully without sidetracking the thread too much). I have an Elite forward-facing fanny pack with an internal velcro 'holster' for running and now I am wondering if it's legit. For the record, I've tried a belly band for running but it prints too much.

https://elitesurvival.com/collections/concealed-carry-bags-packs/products/marathon-gun-pack?variant=36966185173160

I would think that with the inner holster sleeve keeping the gun in position, and the outer part covering the entire gun, it is in compliance with NJ's statute.

On a side note, I really dislike the video that was the only place I could find that showed the inner holster. To be able to conceal carry while you're out running is great. Why on earth would you plug your ears with headphones to disable the only 360 degree sense you have? Your situational awareness is significantly reduced by doing that.

[Guest]

This video mentioned a downside of purse carry. Everything is a compromise in some way. I just wish this woman had a .380 on her!  Or even a .22LR or pepper spray. (Okay! I'll give you the "keys!") https://youtu.be/elYne8zXu1o

 

[Guest]

I'm a man, but this topic is very interesting to me because a female friend wants to get a carry permit. She went to the range once and liked it, so her plan is to go all in and carry.

I've wondered if "concealed carry" meant on the person or what exactly. I believe she plans to carry in her purse.

My questions:

1. Can someone share any relevant statute verbiage about how/where on the body or hand carried bag/satchel/case is legal to carry?
2. Does anyone agree w/me that even if legal, carrying in a purse is a bad idea? My thinking is when an assailant is coming head on and there's time to grab from a purse, that's one thing, but things get lost in a purse which eats time and SO MANY handbags are stolen from behind, so that's just asking to forfeit the gun to the perp.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, SYakoban said:

I believe she plans to carry in her purse.

There are a plethora of companies that make handbags specifically for concealed carry.  These "tactical" pocketbooks have a separate compartment designed to make drawing quick and easy, all while securely retaining the pistol in a covert fashion.

 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Scorpio64 said:

There are a plethora of companies that make handbags specifically for concealed carry.  These "tactical" pocketbooks have a separate compartment designed to make drawing quick and easy, all while securely retaining the pistol in a covert fashion.

 

I know, but she's not a gun person, so I think her plan is to keep all her fashionable purses/handbags and throw it in with the aspirin and lipstick.

[Guest]

I know they have some nice purses with a slit to slide your hand in and grab your gun(holster mounted in purse).  I dont even know if that would be legal in NJ.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, SYakoban said:

I know, but she's not a gun person, so I think her plan is to keep all her fashionable purses/handbags and throw it in with the aspirin and lipstick.

Not as a loose gun, rattlin' around with all the other junk in the purse.  Nope, just don't do it.  Something is bound to get caught in the trigger guard during the draw...I'm looking at you, lipstick.

A holster somehow affixed in the fashionable handbag would be an improvement, but a real concealed carry handbag is better still.  In addition to the dedicated handgun compartment already mentioned, they generally have a thin steel cable running through the shoulder strap, to shut down the 'slash and grab' purse snatching scenario.

On-body carry is still better, if at all possible, but it can be a real challenge to make it work with women's attire.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, SYakoban said:

she's not a gun person, so I think her plan is to keep all her fashionable purses/handbags

Have you or your friend actually looked at any of the plethora?  They are not all black ugly fabric bags with MOLLE straps.  Some of the bags are downright stylish.  I dunno man, which do you think might look better, a CCW handbag one can live with, or perhaps even like, or the makeup job the mortician's beautician can do because you got smoked while playing Feeley Meeley in a handbag?

Perhaps your lady friend should look at some of the YT videos posted by women about their particular experiences carrying.  Also, there are at least two or three web sites (commercial) specifically for female CCW accessories.

Here's one -->  https://thewellarmedwoman.com/

 

[Guest]

Firearm must be holstered and on you....

[Old Glock guy 1,130]

Every time I read USCCA magazine, I think of this thread.  They have a wonderful women's section that generally has an article with photos showing women with concealed handguns in various outfits. 

[Guest]

16 hours ago, Scorpio64 said:

Have you or your friend actually looked at any of the plethora?  They are not all black ugly fabric bags with MOLLE straps.  Some of the bags are downright stylish.  I dunno man, which do you think might look better, a CCW handbag one can live with, or perhaps even like, or the makeup job the mortician's beautician can do because you got smoked while playing Feeley Meeley in a handbag?

Perhaps your lady friend should look at some of the YT videos posted by women about their particular experiences carrying.  Also, there are at least two or three web sites (commercial) specifically for female CCW accessories.

Here's one -->  https://thewellarmedwoman.com/

 

Thanks for the info, but I'm not looking at anything. I'm trying to get educated by others here and want to determine if I'm missing something. I agree with @glockncolts "Firearm must be holstered and on you.... "

I believe (as I understand her thinking) that she's naive about carrying and ALL the risks. She's at enough risk being armed in a situation where a man or men come at her from a blind side. Not being able to draw from the body, to me, is a risk multiplier.

I'm unemployed so I can't afford a carry permit right now. When I can, I want to get one, but only expect to carry in certain circumstances. As a dude and like all dudes, I believe I'm badass and can stand my own against anyone. Then I wake up from that delusion and realize being jumped by 3 guys is a hard fight. It only takes 1 hand to get a hold of a firearm on my body, so I'm concerned about that risk, for me, in a holster. For her, on her body would be worse than for me on mine, in her purse seems like nothing but trouble, even for a purpose made purse.

[Guest]

On 5/16/2024 at 10:46 AM, SYakoban said:

She's at enough risk being armed in a situation where a man or men come at her from a blind side. Not being able to draw from the body, to me, is a risk multiplier.

When I can, I want to get one, but only expect to carry in certain circumstances. As a dude and like all dudes, I believe I'm badass and can stand my own against anyone. Then I wake up from that delusion and realize being jumped by 3 guys is a hard fight. It only takes 1 hand to get a hold of a firearm on my body, so I'm concerned about that risk, for me, in a holster. For her, on her body would be worse than for me on mine, in her purse seems like nothing but trouble, even for a purpose made purse.

No offense, but it sounds like you're not mentally prepared for the carry life. Also that anti-gun rhetoric has seeped into your thinking. 

If 3 men jump you, just that can be a deadly situation for you. Having a firearm, even if it's taken, won't necessarily make it worse, but having one could actually help you. Same for purse carry. Yeah, maybe the firearm gets stolen with the bag, but not having one doesn't improve her situation. 

The key for both of the scenarios you mentioned it to have awareness of your surroundings and maybe some verbal skills, and maybe some empty handed skills. Also, don't go to places that you feel could be trouble unless you really have to. Be humble and avoid the fight unless the fight comes to you. (It also helps to have some of your own people with you, of course.)

If you can carry, you should probably carry most of the time. You can't predict when you might need a firearm any more than you can predict when you'd need a seatbelt or someone to Heimlich a piece of food out of your airway. Not carrying should be the exception. 

Appendix carry might make it harder for someone to grab a pistol from your holster and easier for you to have access to it if you end up on the ground. 

Whether in the purse or in a holster, practice the draw. Practice just preparing to draw in a discreet manner. Mainly, practice awareness.

[Krdshrk 3,886]

 

[Guest]

On 5/23/2024 at 9:19 PM, Krdshrk said:

 

GREAT VIDEO!!!