Nuclear blast victims would have to wait

[71ragtopgoat 23]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington ... lans_N.htm

 

By Steve Sternberg, USA TODAY

The White House has warned state and local governments not to expect a "significant federal response" at the scene of a terrorist nuclear attack for 24 to 72 hours after the blast, according to a planning guide.

President Obama told delegates from 47 nations at the Nuclear Security Summit on Tuesday that it would be a "catastrophe for the world" if al-Qaeda or another terrorist group got a nuclear device, because so many lives would be lost and it would be so hard to mitigate damage from the blast.

 

A 10-kiloton nuclear explosion would level buildings within half a mile of ground zero, generate 900-mph winds, bathe the landscape with radiation and produce a plume of fallout that would drift for hundreds of miles, the guide says. It was posted on the Internet and sent to local officials.

 

 

SUMMIT: Nuclear agreement hailed as step forward

ON THE WEB: Read the planning guide (pdf)

 

The document is designed to help local officials craft plans for responding to a nuclear blast. The prospect is anything but far-fetched, says Rick Nelson of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. "Do I think in my lifetime I'll see the detonation of a nuclear device? I do."

 

One challenge he says, will be to persuade survivors to stay indoors, shielded from dangerous radiation until they're given the all-clear or told to evacuate. "In all likelihood, families will be separated," he says. "It's going to be scary to sit tight, though it's the right thing to do."

 

The government's planning scenarios envision a terrorist strike in an urban area with a 10-kiloton device, slightly smaller than the roughly 15-kiloton Hiroshima bomb. A 10-kiloton device packs the punch of 10,000 tons of TNT.

 

The chaos that would inevitably follow such a blast would make it difficult for the federal government to react quickly. "Emergency response is principally a local function," the document says, though "federal assistance will be mobilized as rapidly as possible."

 

The "Planning Guidance for Response to a Nuclear Detonation" was developed by a task force headed by the White House Homeland Security Council. It was circulated to state and local government officials and first responders in January 2009.

 

The report has never been formally released to the public, White House spokesman Nick Shapiro says.

 

It offers practical guidance to first responders and advice on radiation measurement and decontamination.

 

Disaster experts say local governments aren't prepared for a nuclear attack. "There isn't a single American city, in my estimation, that has sufficient plans for a nuclear terrorist event," says Irwin Redlener of Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health.

 

The message for families is simple, he says: Stay put. Wait for instructions. If you've been outside, dust off, change, shower. "What citizens need to know fits on a wallet-sized card," Redlener says. "A limited amount of information would save tens of thousands of people."

[tbtrout 141]

Of course not, they need to wait for as many people to die as possible so they will be eliminated from Obamacare and save longterm care money:P

 

Seriously, after watching the disaster response for Katrina, does anyone really expect the Feds to be of any help?

[SafetyHit 1]

Sounds encouraging. Maybe they will consider issuing airsoft CCW permits in the event of just such a thing.

 

At least then we can keep the squirrels from looting our local establishments.

[bbk 188]

Why do you think we prepare for zombies?

 

IMO, I'd be more concerned with a "dirty bomb." While not a nuclear weapon by any means, it seems like the most realistic, ultimate weapon for a terrorist (because I don't see a True Lies type situation really unfolding).

[Theron 5]

In any mass casualty incident there will be triage to (hopefully) make best use of limited resources and personel.

 

The triage won't even begin until the scene is considered safe enough to bring in the personel and resources without creating more casualties of skilled personel.

 

In the event of an attack with lingering effects like a nuke or persistent chemical agents the plan would be to move less contaminated folks out of effected areas rather than move personel in.

 

It's grim, but this is why these type of attacks are so pernicious.

 

Prep as best you can and keep your fingers crossed.

[GoNRA 12]

Dude if there is ever some wild shit going on, im talking really crazy stuff, there are no more laws it then becomes survival.

[KpdPipes 388]

FEMA rules state that anyplace requesting Assistance needs to be able to be self sufficient for up to 96 hours in order to allow assets to get in place so the effort can be coordinated. Katrina was actually WELL run on the FEMA side until they stated handing out the credit cards. there were FEMA Helo units doing rescues within 12 hours, and the majority of the assets were in place ahead of scedule. the PROBLEM was NEW ORLEANS and the State of Luisiana. The NO Mayor had ZERO preparedness, and ZERO plans in place, and the Governor refused to declare a State of Emergency until it was too late to do anything pre-emptively. Look AROUND New Orleans to the other areas that were Hit by Katrina, such as Jeff Parish, and up in Mississippi...NONE of those places had the "Problems" NOLA had..mainly because the people were prepared ahead of time, and Evaced when prompted to. That photo of the hundreds of Schoolbuses up to their windows in water wasnt an exxageration, i saw them with my own eyes. Nagin had the Means to get ALL of those people out, he chose not to do so for bullsnot excuses....... And YES, before anyone brings it up NOPD was a big part of the problem, mainly because their Chief Self-Evacuated to Baton Rouge without telling anyone...that said the reports that over half the Dept never showed up was BS, there were some that took off, yes, and IIRC they were fired, the rest made sure their families were safe, then reported in, and stayed on duty for about 3 weeks straight. And, Sadly the two female officers that the news report showed looting were NOT fired but NOT for the reason some here would have you believe..PM me if you wnt to know why. Let's just say the majority of NOPD officers were very outraged that they kept their jobs, except for a "Minority" who did not have a problem with them not being disciplined...if you get my drift.

[axeman_g 128]

Kpd...

I work with FEMA and agree with your assessment of the Katrina Event. As a rule (Stafford Act) FEMA is not allowed to operate in Disaster Recovery Mode until a fed declaration is declared by president (it was before landfall) and asked to help by the Governor of the impacted states. The Miss. Gov (Barbour) and La Gov (Blanco) both had requested fema's assistance before landfall, so FEMA was operating in the area before and after landfall. La Gov screwed the pooch when she and the LaNG leadership refused entry into NewOrleans by ANYONE until Sept 1, except for NO safety and LE personel. Big mistake as they were totally overwhelmed and undermanned. She got bullied by Nagin who wanted the spotlight. He saw himself as the next Guilianni. This event spuured the entire "Post Katrina Emergency Management Reform Act" utilized by DHs today.

 

In regard to the CBRNE (chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear, and high yield explosives ) threat, what the prez and the DHS/EM community is talking about is a suitcade nuke...10 kilatons is small compared to todays warheads. This is about 50% the power of the bom dropped on Nagasaki (21 kt or 42 Million sticks of dynamite). So what the current plan calls for is local First Responders to go to expolsion site (about 6-10 square blocks in most avg metro cities) and handle initial response. This is what these local guys are now trained for. The fed will handle the out lying areas, controlling traffic, managing the population in fallout and plume areas. Those are the areas that will sustain majority of injuries and deaths over the next days.

Especially if the bomb is planted in the just right, most strategic, location taking into account predominant winds, terrain, pop density etc etc.

 

Best plan for people not disintegrated in the initial blast is to shelter in place in as low a spot as possible in your house for 47-96 hours. That would be as much time required for plume and fallout to pass or disapate.

[Malsua 1,422]

Best plan for people not disintegrated in the initial blast is to shelter in place in as low a spot as possible in your house for 47-96 hours. That would be as much time required for plume and fallout to pass or disapate.

 

That really depends on a number of things. It's better to be under any cover than to sit in your metal box(car) in a 100 mile traffic jam while radiation falls down on you.

 

That said, a wooden home with standard shingles doesn't offer much gamma reduction at all. You need mass between your body and the radiation source. Lots of it and dense stuff. You're better off walking out into a full fallout event for 10 minutes and into a shelter than to spend 2 weeks sheltering under some shingles and sheetrock.

 

You need to have a measure of the current radiation level. I have a nukalert.

 

You then plot out the radiation level on a nomagraph to determine the time you should remain in your shelter.

Here's a nomagraph you should print out and put in your bug out bag. http://thewellrats.com/malbor2/taa/radi ... ograph.jpg

 

Here's an animated .gif I made showing how to use a nomagraph.

 

 

There's so much information you need to know about a radiological event that it can't be distilled out in a few posts. Suffice it to so if you live anywhere near a potential target, and everyone reading this does, you need to know what do to, where to go, how to shelter, how not to contaminate everything, what kind of shelter you need and how long to stay in it. At least have a plan.

[GoNRA 12]

if you ever see a mushroom cloud, you mine as well crack open a beer and light up a smoke.

[axeman_g 128]

You know when I was young I would have said I would spend those last minutes spent in a flurry of animalist fornication... but that smoke and beer sounds pretty in my old age. Kick back and watch the pretty colors....

[mikeyboyeee 66]

FEMA rules state that anyplace requesting Assistance needs to be able to be self sufficient for up to 96 hours in order to allow assets to get in place so the effort can be coordinated. Katrina was actually WELL run on the FEMA side until they stated handing out the credit cards. there were FEMA Helo units doing rescues within 12 hours, and the majority of the assets were in place ahead of scedule. the PROBLEM was NEW ORLEANS and the State of Luisiana. The NO Mayor had ZERO preparedness, and ZERO plans in place, and the Governor refused to declare a State of Emergency until it was too late to do anything pre-emptively. Look AROUND New Orleans to the other areas that were Hit by Katrina, such as Jeff Parish, and up in Mississippi...NONE of those places had the "Problems" NOLA had..mainly because the people were prepared ahead of time, and Evaced when prompted to. That photo of the hundreds of Schoolbuses up to their windows in water wasnt an exxageration, i saw them with my own eyes. Nagin had the Means to get ALL of those people out, he chose not to do so for bullsnot excuses....... And YES, before anyone brings it up NOPD was a big part of the problem, mainly because their Chief Self-Evacuated to Baton Rouge without telling anyone...that said the reports that over half the Dept never showed up was BS, there were some that took off, yes, and IIRC they were fired, the rest made sure their families were safe, then reported in, and stayed on duty for about 3 weeks straight. And, Sadly the two female officers that the news report showed looting were NOT fired but NOT for the reason some here would have you believe..PM me if you wnt to know why. Let's just say the majority of NOPD officers were very outraged that they kept their jobs, except for a "Minority" who did not have a problem with them not being disciplined...if you get my drift.

 

Nagan did say he wanted a "chocolate" city!

[mikeyboyeee 66]

We are so close to Earl, NYC etc, you won't even see the cloud. You'll be dead.

[bbk 188]

Well, there was discussion on another forum about this topic. What was discussed at the recent summit by world leaders as a possible threat was a 10KT nuclear weapon. To put that in relevance, Little Boy dropped on Hiroshima was between 13-18KT, and Fat Man was 21. Cold War era warheads developed by the US and USSR are conservatively thought to be around 300KT. So, the devastation wouldn't be as catastrophic as some people think in regards to the projected payload.

 

Further, since the bigger threat would be a terrorist attack instead of an ICBM, it'd probably be a ground-level detonation instead of an airburst-type-- which would hamper the initial explosion as well. I'm not a CBRNE specialist by any means, but a 10KT weapon (if that) used by terrorists detonated at the ground-level might dissolve a few blocks. Twice that radius would be devastated by the shockwave and flash blindness, if not killed. And exponentially beyond that radius would be affected, less so, by the shockwave and flash blindness. Of course the biggest threat, and moreso for NJ residents, would be the fallout. Since the plume would follow whichever direction the winds were blowing, it could in theory literally blanket the entire state with radioactive material, or blow right out to sea (still would have an adverse reaction, but millions would be spared being cooked from the inside-out).

 

Honestly, if the projected 10KT nuclear weapon did go off, I don't think people would even realize it initially unless they were within 20-30 miles of ground zero. Then of course this is in application of our area, with the types of terrain/foliage and community structures we have. A place like Denver, or anywhere else as flat, is a different story (insert the show Jericho). If the payload can be delivered via air somehow, and is detonated within the kill zone, then increase the amount of damage exponentially (I want to say 10x). But if the weapon is detonated above the kill zone in the LEO (low Earth orbit), it could still have a devastating effect by means of an EMP. Though, that effect would depend on the size of the payload. A 300KT weapon would obviously be far more amplified by the atmosphere then a 10KT... but, let's put it this way, if a person has the capabilities of delivering a payload via ICBM or SA, they probably have the means of acquiring a relatively large nuclear weapon (though I wouldn't say its a definitive correlation).

 

As I've said before, I'd be more concerned with a dirty bomb. Generic terrorist 'A' could fill up a hauling truck with radioactive waste, and place a generic explosive in there... set it off, and then hundreds if not thousands would be walking bombs with radioactive poisoning, as well as the area being contaminated.

 

Either way, scary stuff.

[KpdPipes 388]

Well, there was discussion on another forum about this topic. What was discussed at the recent summit by world leaders as a possible threat was a 10KT nuclear weapon. To put that in relevance, Little Boy dropped on Hiroshima was between 13-18KT, and Fat Man was 21. Cold War era warheads developed by the US and USSR are conservatively thought to be around 300KT. So, the devastation wouldn't be as catastrophic as some people think in regards to the projected payload.

 

Further, since the bigger threat would be a terrorist attack instead of an ICBM, it'd probably be a ground-level detonation instead of an airburst-type-- which would hamper the initial explosion as well. I'm not a CBRNE specialist by any means, but a 10KT weapon (if that) used by terrorists detonated at the ground-level might dissolve a few blocks. Twice that radius would be devastated by the shockwave and flash blindness, if not killed. And exponentially beyond that radius would be affected, less so, by the shockwave and flash blindness. Of course the biggest threat, and moreso for NJ residents, would be the fallout. Since the plume would follow whichever direction the winds were blowing, it could in theory literally blanket the entire state with radioactive material, or blow right out to sea (still would have an adverse reaction, but millions would be spared being cooked from the inside-out).

 

Honestly, if the projected 10KT nuclear weapon did go off, I don't think people would even realize it initially unless they were within 20-30 miles of ground zero. Then of course this is in application of our area, with the types of terrain/foliage and community structures we have. A place like Denver, or anywhere else as flat, is a different story (insert the show Jericho). If the payload can be delivered via air somehow, and is detonated within the kill zone, then increase the amount of damage exponentially (I want to say 10x). But if the weapon is detonated above the kill zone in the LEO (low Earth orbit), it could still have a devastating effect by means of an EMP. Though, that effect would depend on the size of the payload. A 300KT weapon would obviously be far more amplified by the atmosphere then a 10KT... but, let's put it this way, if a person has the capabilities of delivering a payload via ICBM or SA, they probably have the means of acquiring a relatively large nuclear weapon (though I wouldn't say its a definitive correlation).

 

As I've said before, I'd be more concerned with a dirty bomb. Generic terrorist 'A' could fill up a hauling truck with radioactive waste, and place a generic explosive in there... set it off, and then hundreds if not thousands would be walking bombs with radioactive poisoning, as well as the area being contaminated.

 

Either way, scary stuff.

 

 

Believe it or not, the Dirty bomb ends up being more of a MESS than an actual Devastation. The advatnage for the Dirty Bomb is the Terror aspect in all honesty. Most of the sheep will panic when they hear "Nuclear" but all in all it's a cleanup problem more than anything else. the DIFFICULTY will be in LOCKING Down the area, and decontaminating the people...and I Garun-damn-tee things WILL get heavy handed. People are going to Bitch about the JBT's or the Military stepping in with their Decon teams, but there's a time to play nice and a time to do the job with a minimum of ritual dick-beating, and that is that. Given the choice, i'd take a Dirty bomb over a Bio weapon or actual Fission weapon ANY Day.

[GoNRA 12]

why dont we just lock this country down tight, check everyone who enters. We have Cameras, GPS, Surveillance unmanned aircraft. How hard could it be to put cameras all over the exterior of our country? Setup Stations that have helicopters to capture them when the camera picks them up.

 

Jeez I should be president

[Guest]

Seriously, after watching the disaster response for Katrina, does anyone really expect the Feds to be of any help?

 

nope.. about ALL i want from them is to LEAVE ME ALONE...

[Guest]

why dont we just lock this country down tight, check everyone who enters. We have Cameras, GPS, Surveillance unmanned aircraft. How hard could it be to put cameras all over the exterior of our country? Setup Stations that have helicopters to capture them when the camera picks them up.

 

Jeez I should be president

 

 

If we started to SHOOT illegals on site i bet ILLEGAL immigration numbers would plummet..

[GoNRA 12]

why dont we just lock this country down tight, check everyone who enters. We have Cameras, GPS, Surveillance unmanned aircraft. How hard could it be to put cameras all over the exterior of our country? Setup Stations that have helicopters to capture them when the camera picks them up.

 

Jeez I should be president

 

 

If we started to SHOOT illegals on site i bet ILLEGAL immigration numbers would plummet..

 

Tim is gonna strike this post down

[bbk 188]

Believe it or not, the Dirty bomb ends up being more of a MESS than an actual Devastation. The advatnage for the Dirty Bomb is the Terror aspect in all honesty. Most of the sheep will panic when they hear "Nuclear" but all in all it's a cleanup problem more than anything else. the DIFFICULTY will be in LOCKING Down the area, and decontaminating the people...and I Garun-damn-tee things WILL get heavy handed. People are going to **** about the JBT's or the Military stepping in with their Decon teams, but there's a time to play nice and a time to do the job with a minimum of ritual dick-beating, and that is that. Given the choice, i'd take a Dirty bomb over a Bio weapon or actual Fission weapon ANY Day.

I agree totally, and, between the two evils, the damage from a dirty bomb would be less extensive then a nuclear weapon. But the thing to me is that a dirty bomb is strictly a terror tactic, while a nuclear weapon is far more conventional. I wouldn't expect AQ or another organization to be able to detonate a high yield nuclear weapon on US soil. Instead, the media blitz of a dirty bomb and the general inability for this country to respond to crisis would make a hell of an impact (both within the country and across the globe)-- even though the damage itself would not be, relatively speaking, that bad.

 

If a nuclear weapon actually detonated on US soil, I would bet that it wouldn't be an isolated incident, and there are at least a handful of other nuclear weapons being delivered as well. While this situation is far more scary, it is also far less feasible.

 

As for the borders comment, would it matter? Organizations with devious intentions will always find a way to smuggle something in regardless of the measures taken. Also, remember that tightening the border to a trickle has as many adverse reactions on law abiding citizens. Who says the cameras and UAVs would end at the border? What happens when the government starts installing cameras everywhere (like in the UK) and UAVs regularly patrol our skies, and other means to keep a watchful eye on "persons of interest"? Weren't we (the public) just screaming about our civil liberties with the wire taps, even though the government did it with intentions of keeping an eye on persons of interest?

[axeman_g 128]

damaged... as a fed that is the plan.

 

The whole concept going around in the fed world is Responsibility.... be responsible for yourself and your family.

 

Feds have gotten out of the water, tent and ice business. Why, because retailers do it better... so get them up and running and let the retailers do what they do best. That is why all disaster planning nowadays entails at least $200 cash for a family of four... because that much money will keep that family stocked for 7 days with food, water and essentials.

 

If you look around lately, especially in NJ (and look at No during Katrina) it is not the feds you needs to worry about, but the locals.

[71ragtopgoat 23]

I agree it's the locals who need to be watched. People do crazy out of character things in times of crisis. But the feds will not care one iota about us .

They will only care about order and calm being restored . No matter how it's done. You can wipe your butt with 2A when SHTF .

I do think we need more prevention though .Tighter boarders ,huge fines for those employing and servicing ilegals. It's my belief that enforcement of the petty crimes ilegals are involved in like identity theft and tax and insurance fraud will lead us to the bigger fish that are out to harm our nation.

One of the best ways the NYPD kept crime down was strict enforcement of

subway turnstile jumpers. Turns out a large percentage of those petty crimes were being committed by career hard core criminals with warrants for more serious crimes.

[KpdPipes 388]

Believe it or not, the Dirty bomb ends up being more of a MESS than an actual Devastation. The advatnage for the Dirty Bomb is the Terror aspect in all honesty. Most of the sheep will panic when they hear "Nuclear" but all in all it's a cleanup problem more than anything else. the DIFFICULTY will be in LOCKING Down the area, and decontaminating the people...and I Garun-damn-tee things WILL get heavy handed. People are going to **** about the JBT's or the Military stepping in with their Decon teams, but there's a time to play nice and a time to do the job with a minimum of ritual dick-beating, and that is that. Given the choice, i'd take a Dirty bomb over a Bio weapon or actual Fission weapon ANY Day.

I agree totally, and, between the two evils, the damage from a dirty bomb would be less extensive then a nuclear weapon. But the thing to me is that a dirty bomb is strictly a terror tactic, while a nuclear weapon is far more conventional. I wouldn't expect AQ or another organization to be able to detonate a high yield nuclear weapon on US soil. Instead, the media blitz of a dirty bomb and the general inability for this country to respond to crisis would make a hell of an impact (both within the country and across the globe)-- even though the damage itself would not be, relatively speaking, that bad.

 

If a nuclear weapon actually detonated on US soil, I would bet that it wouldn't be an isolated incident, and there are at least a handful of other nuclear weapons being delivered as well. While this situation is far more scary, it is also far less feasible.

 

As for the borders comment, would it matter? Organizations with devious intentions will always find a way to smuggle something in regardless of the measures taken. Also, remember that tightening the border to a trickle has as many adverse reactions on law abiding citizens. Who says the cameras and UAVs would end at the border? What happens when the government starts installing cameras everywhere (like in the UK) and UAVs regularly patrol our skies, and other means to keep a watchful eye on "persons of interest"? Weren't we (the public) just screaming about our civil liberties with the wire taps, even though the government did it with intentions of keeping an eye on persons of interest?

 

Actually you got the problem in One..it';s the MEDIA that is the problem. THEY will bow everything out of proportion and take an incident that would otherwise be easily managed and blow it all out of proportion, and panic the nation. We had Vietnam pretty much WON, the PRV folks were in paris ready to roll over and give up....until Cronkite declared the war Unwinnable..even though we had utterly smashed the Tet Offensive.