I got to thinking redux

[bulpup 98]

The original thread got me thinking about many things. One of which is this story that I have used to train my own soldiers. It is a true story and was written the day after it happened. This has nothing to do with firearms, but with aing the right decision. I think it is a good starting point to discuss snap decision making, despite the fact that it is about me and I think I wrote it quite well

 

 

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I was walking from the subway station in Queens to a class I am taking and as I was crossing the street I see in front of me an old guy lying in the street, face down, with his foot

[usnmars 136]

WOW amazing story. Isn't it ironic that you dont even realize it but training kicks in.

[bulpup 98]

WOW amazing story. Isn't it ironic that you dont even realize it but training kicks in.

 

and MINIMAL training at that.

[Malsua 1,422]

Interesting story. You saved that guy's life. Kudos.

 

in Iraq I would not have hesitated to move a suffocating man, but here in the US something was holding me back

 

It's for the same reason that the first 3 planes on 9/11 met no internal resistance. We've been conditioned to not intercede and to wait for authority. In Iraq, you're aware that no authority going to drive up lights and sirens blaring and if something needs done now, you have to do it. What the crowd was doing was reinforcing that conditioning.

 

Sometimes you just have to make a decision and do what needs done even if it means breaking the "rules".

[MedicYeti 96]

Good Story; Great job!

I've been in Emergency Medical Services for more then half my life and I have seen some very interesting feats of human ignorance. You absolutely did the right thing. Securing a patients airway is the first and most important thing that anyone, from untrained lay person to super trauma doctor, can do. You were right about the pulse rate, and respiratory rate for that matter. If you don't have the equipment to intervene then they are just numbers. If the respiratory rate was desreased I certianlly wouldn't reccomend mouth to mouth on a bleeding stranger. "Don't move him" comes from the fear that there is a high cervical fracture and moving a patient with a high cervical fracture can knock out their respiratory drive if the spinal column is severed. While it is possible, a high cervical fracture is unlikely when falling from a chair or a standing position.

"Diffusion of Responsibility" is a psychological theory (one of my favorites) that simply states, there more people there are to help, the less likely one it to receive help. People in crowded areas give themselves any number of excuses they can to not render aid. Universities have done extensive studies on the diffusion of responsibility and subjects have laid on the streets of Manhattan, LA, and DC asking for help and have not received any. On the flip side, they have laid on the streets of tiny little towns asking for help and have received almost instant aid. (fewer people to diffuse the responsibility to.) It is amazing to read.

This is what prompted my thread. I have spent 18 years in a career that requires me to make life and death decisions in seconds sometimes with minimal information. Then I have to deal with the potential concenquences of those decisions, good or bad but always in my patients best interest. Less then 1% of the countries population would have stopped as you did, as I would have.

Your combat lifesaver course worked.

[coldsolderjoint 84]

Airway, Breathing, Circulation.

 

Edit: The first time I read through it, I thought you took this from somewhere else.. Didn't realize it was your story. Lol. Sounded like I was reading a book. You did pretty much exactly what I would do as an EMT if I found that guy laying on the street and didn't have any equipment with me.

 

I've never been to iraq, or gotten shot at, but I do kind of know what it is like to go into "robot mode" when there's multiple injuries, flipped over cars, etc etc etc. Becomes second nature after awhile.

[coldsolderjoint 84]

...

"Diffusion of Responsibility" is a psychological theory (one of my favorites) that simply states, there more people there are to help, the less likely one it to receive help. People in crowded areas give themselves any number of excuses they can to not render aid. Universities have done extensive studies on the diffusion of responsibility and subjects have laid on the streets of Manhattan, LA, and DC asking for help and have not received any. On the flip side, they have laid on the streets of tiny little towns asking for help and have received almost instant aid. (fewer people to diffuse the responsibility to.) It is amazing to read.

This is what prompted my thread. I have spent 18 years in a career that requires me to make life and death decisions in seconds sometimes with minimal information. Then I have to deal with the potential concenquences of those decisions, good or bad but always in my patients best interest. Less then 1% of the countries population would have stopped as you did, as I would have.

Your combat lifesaver course worked.

 

That's also the case where that woman got rapped all night while everyone in the apartment building heard her crying for help.

 

That's why when you tell someone to call 911 (like in the CPR course.. you assign the task to one person specifically and make sure they do it).

[Regulator72 80]

Wow, thanks for sharing that story. There was a reason you were there at that moment... good on you... :clap: someday, someone will go out of their way to help you, and you won't need to ask yourself why..

[bulpup 98]

Good Story; Great job!

 

"Diffusion of Responsibility" is a psychological theory (one of my favorites) that simply states, there more people there are to help, the less likely one it to receive help. People in crowded areas give themselves any number of excuses they can to not render aid.

Your combat lifesaver course worked.

 

I had never heard that before, but just by hearing the phrase I can concur, that's what happens.

I have had so many occasions to see screwed up stuff where I swear I always feel like if I don't do something, no one will. Usually I am correct.

[bulpup 98]

Airway, Breathing, Circulation.

 

Edit: The first time I read through it, I thought you took this from somewhere else.. Didn't realize it was your story. Lol. Sounded like I was reading a book.

 

Hey now that's high praise!

[chefhunter34 1]

BRAVO!! Way to go, as a former Paramedic, I congratulate you on having the fortitude to step in and do something. I used to hate the damned crowds, to the point where we would grab a gawker and drag them in for a close look, only to have them run and vomit.HEHEHE. Other medics will appreciate that. If more people would do something when someone is in need our world would be so much nicer and healthier.

 

For those who dont think they could do it, remember your family may be that person one day???

 

ANd just a calming kind word in those situations can make the biggest difference.

 

Hats off to you and the other guy.

[coldsolderjoint 84]

I heard some equation (possibly in EMT school a long time ago).

 

20% knowing what you are doing, 10% luck, and 70% looking like you know what you are doing.

[bulpup 98]

Interesting story. You saved that guy's life. Kudos.

 

in Iraq I would not have hesitated to move a suffocating man, but here in the US something was holding me back

 

It's for the same reason that the first 3 planes on 9/11 met no internal resistance. We've been conditioned to not intercede and to wait for authority. In Iraq, you're aware that no authority going to drive up lights and sirens blaring and if something needs done now, you have to do it. What the crowd was doing was reinforcing that conditioning.

 

Sometimes you just have to make a decision and do what needs done even if it means breaking the "rules".

 

Recently we had the NYFD conduct a fire drill in the building. Among other things he explained a term called "milling,' which I took to mean that sometimes people look for too many clues before they believe they are in danger. He said it was no more apparent then on 9/11 inside the WTC.

 

But back to the other thread's point, cleaning a rifle and and wondering if I could take a shot a someone shooting at the police officer. 3 months ago that would seems an unlikely scenario. With some recent news from California you know that there are some that just want to shoot the PD.

My training and experience from Iraq would instantly mark the shooter as "PID," Positive Identification. That was as weapons free as you can get in the 'box. Sure it might be argued in court in regards to NJ not being a war zone, but if I would feel just as comfortable saving a life in that way, despite the possibility of prison.

 

I thank all for the raise, but as I said it is a great story to use as a measure of "what would you do?" I would also like to add I feel more confident in my ability to make a difference in this world with some sort of emergency medical training than I do with my ability with a firearm.

[Malsua 1,422]

Recently we had the NYFD conduct a fire drill in the building. Among other things he explained a term called "milling,' which I took to mean that sometimes people look for too many clues before they believe they are in danger. He said it was no more apparent then on 9/11 inside the WTC.

 

The thing was, before 9/11 the thought of confronting a hijacker would be unthinkable and strictly verboten. Some people thought about doing something but their conditioning kicked in. We live in a heavily policed country and punishment for taking the wrong action can be severe. It was only when the passengers knew that there was no other course of action to save themselves and no one was going to intervene that they acted. The plane became to them as Iraq was for you.

 

But back to the other thread's point, cleaning a rifle and and wondering if I could take a shot a someone shooting at the police officer. 3 months ago that would seems an unlikely scenario. With some recent news from California you know that there are some that just want to shoot the PD.

My training and experience from Iraq would instantly mark the shooter as "PID," Positive Identification. That was as weapons free as you can get in the 'box. Sure it might be argued in court in regards to NJ not being a war zone, but if I would feel just as comfortable saving a life in that way, despite the possibility of prison.

 

I thank all for the raise, but as I said it is a great story to use as a measure of "what would you do?" I would also like to add I feel more confident in my ability to make a difference in this world with some sort of emergency medical training than I do with my ability with a firearm.

 

I could certainly take the shot, no question in my mind as in, I could take the life of a bad guy to save the life of an innocent. It would have to be exceptionally apparent and imminent. However, in a "stand off" or hostage situation, conditioning would set in. You won't be penalized if you don't act, but potentially if you do. It might make me hesitate long enough for it not to matter. For example...he's waving the gun around...it doesn't appear like he's going to shoot..then he grabs the woman, drags her off to the side out of your view and shoots her. That's where the conditioning killed the innocent yet if you had plugged the guy the situation would be over for the innocent and you'd be in for bankruptcy and potential jail time.

[Guest]

your Iphone takes really good pictures..

[bbk 188]

Nice share, isn't muscle memory a hell of a thing?

I find myself continuing certain conditioned actions, not necessarily related to the field of emergency medicine (so, kudos!).

I'm actually trying to pass on some of those to my little sister (she's really young)-- through small games she might enjoy. If anybody has ever seen the show Psych on USA, and remember the games that Shawn's dad did with him when he was a kid to sharpen his perception/situational awareness, its what I'm doing with her

[bulpup 98]

your Iphone takes really good pictures..

 

 

Lol! Why yes I guess it does! That was before I got all finger grease on the lens. Now all the pictures I take look like cheasy softcore porn, even without the nudity.

[njpilot 671]

Nice job, Bulpup. Good on ya.

[jeff47 30]

I don't know how many of you recall the bus hijacking that took place a few short months after 9/11 by 2 random people (for what reason I don't recall). Basically they started to beat the driver and try and commandeer the bus. Unfortunately (for them) everyone was in 'post 9/11' mode at that point and the passengers rushed forward and beat the hell out of those two. Even chasing the one guy off the bus (he was making a run for it) and further beating the hell out him.

 

Nice work and great story.

[bulpup 98]

Thanks again.

 

However the reason I posted this story is more in line with what would be going through your mind if a life or death situation existed. and this was in response to MedicYeti's thread about sniping to help a police officer.

I am the kind of guy that woudl first say "MedicYeti was there and made the call based on what he saw, not what I think I should be looking for (as far as cues).

 

In other words, I don't want to be the guy in the crowd yelling "DON"T DO IT" while another man dies simply because we are taught one blanket thing to do in an emergency, like the "don't move him!" people in what I wrote.

 

I look at it like this. My story was hind sight and real, so it had all the right details that everyone could agree it was the right thing to do. Yeti's is the hypothetical so when you read it it is subjective and your 'impression' of what he wrote is where you start to decide if it was right or not.

 

I love the hypotheticals, to a certain extent, because you start to think. I like to hope that the hypothetical situations I put myself in are not tainted by my thoughts that I am superman, but rather the exact opposite; that I am a man getting older day after day.

 

Only then will I start to think that I might come out on top. This is in direct contrast (I hope)to the criminal that thinks " I will just point the gun sideways and I will scare the money out of them."

 

Stephen Coonts ("Flight of The Intruder") wrote in his memoir/book "Cannibal Queen" that when preparing for battle on Okinawa he told his men "now is the time to fantasize. Think about any odd situation you might find yourself in and how you would react to it. Every movie bad situation, except now it is you and your abilities, not a superhero. If you don't think about it now you won't have time to think about it then."