PAP or Saiga

[imperialfish 11]

Im about to pull the trigger on my first AK variant undecided. Help me choose.

 

PAP or Saiga. 7.62

 

Pap seem to be a few bucks more but look like they have most the upgrades im looking for. Saiga would come plain jane.

 

Which is better and why ??

[lunker 274]

I can't say which is better. I have fired a Saiga and like it, but I would want to do the upgrades to make it have a pistol grip etc. I won a Zastava PAP (the one with the nice wood furniture) and it is up for sale in the marketplace.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9660

[Guest]

Saiga without question... Sell you mine if you are looking for something higher end...

 

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=8534

 

would NOT include the Aimpoint....

 

have several mags.. and ammunition to go with it.. but like I said I have a lot of cash into the gun..

[Radek 73]

Free bump for lunker.

 

If I didn't already have the Saiga, I would have definitely bought lunker's PAP. Great wood and it's only $475! I saw it and shot few rounds Tuesday at BA.

 

Of course, customizing Saiga is fun ...

[Guest]

Free bump for lunker.

 

If I didn't already have the Saiga, I would have definitely bought lunker's PAP. Great wood and it's only $475! I saw it and shot few rounds Tuesday at BA.

 

Of course, customizing Saiga is fun ...

 

 

agreed the wood on that gun looks really nice!

[imperialfish 11]

Thats real nice Damagedworld im sure you are asking a pretty penny for that beauty.

 

Just ordered one though. Also a monin 91/30 Sweet

[hiker88 22]

+1 on the Saiga

[FFDP82 4]

Thats real nice Damagedworld im sure you are asking a pretty penny for that beauty.

 

Just ordered one though. Also a monin 91/30 Sweet

 

No offense to DW's gun but Saigas really do not have to be expensive at all. A build like mine is lighter, just as functional, and will cost you substantially less money. His handguard alone is worth more than all necessary conversion parts. The buttstock is also another damn near $150 as well. You can convert it back to "Jersey legal AK" for about $140, for another $100 you can go to an AK-74 pinned muzzle brake, and another $150-200 will get you a POSP/Bushnell/Primary Arms optic. There's nothing "high end" about any of that stuff, it's just a fixed stock AK at the end of the day. K-Var and Izhmash parts are good enough for Russian/Bulgarian military, so it's good enough for me. Yeah it looks cool and modern and all, but the expensive rails and stocks are not going to make your rifle any better than if you threw WASR wood on it.

 

If you want to configure your gun that way and spend the coin, go for it. But don't get yourself under the assumption that you're "higher end" or anything like that because at the end of the day, WASR or Saiga with $1k in parts, it's still an "AK"

 

[attachment=0]IMG_1668.jpg[/attachment]

[Guest]

Thats real nice Damagedworld im sure you are asking a pretty penny for that beauty.

 

Just ordered one though. Also a monin 91/30 Sweet

 

No offense to DW's gun but Saigas really do not have to be expensive at all. A build like mine is lighter, just as functional, and will cost you substantially less money. His handguard alone is worth more than all necessary conversion parts. The buttstock is also another damn near $150 as well. You can convert it back to "Jersey legal AK" for about $140, for another $100 you can go to an AK-74 pinned muzzle brake, and another $150-200 will get you a POSP/Bushnell/Primary Arms optic. There's nothing "high end" about any of that stuff, it's just a fixed stock AK at the end of the day. K-Var and Izhmash parts are good enough for Russian/Bulgarian military, so it's good enough for me. Yeah it looks cool and modern and all, but the expensive rails and stocks are not going to make your rifle any better than if you threw WASR wood on it.

 

If you want to configure your gun that way and spend the coin, go for it. But don't get yourself under the assumption that you're "higher end" or anything like that because at the end of the day, WASR or Saiga with $1k in parts, it's still an "AK"

 

[attachment=0]IMG_1668.jpg[/attachment]

 

I am willing to bet that the section of rail you have screw gunned onto the bottom of your hand guard is not as solid as the metal rail that is part of my hand guard..

 

further I would not even begin to compare the Bushnell unit to the Aimpoint one..

 

further "better" is subjective.. what is better to you and me may be very different.. my Saiga was put together with EXACTLY what I had in mind.. quality.. durability.. the parts I have chosen are not to impress.. they are to last.. it might still be an AK but it is an AK I would bet my life on..

 

what kind of pistol grip do you have there? looks like it fits in the hand well?

[Guest]

 

[attachment=0]IMG_1668.jpg[/attachment]

 

 

actually just curious didnt notice the mag before..

 

full parts list?

[FFDP82 4]

I am willing to bet that the section of rail you have screw gunned onto the bottom of your hand guard is not as solid as the metal rail that is part of my hand guard..

 

further I would not even begin to compare the Bushnell unit to the Aimpoint one..

 

further "better" is subjective.. what is better to you and me may be very different.. my Saiga was put together with EXACTLY what I had in mind.. quality.. durability.. the parts I have chosen are not to impress.. they are to last.. it might still be an AK but it is an AK I would bet my life on..

 

what kind of pistol grip do you have there? looks like it fits in the hand well?

 

The section of rail is not "screw gunned" on. I have an internal piece of sheet steel I fabricated from a drive bay, with two nuts brazed to it, then two 10-32 screws loc-tited into the nuts. It's extremely solid and even if it somehow broke (which would likely require the handguard itself to be entirely smashed) there's still a handguard. It's quite solid.

 

There is no comparison, Aimpoint beats Bushnell hands down. Since this is my "dead nuts" reliable gun I went with an aperture iron for an improved sight leaf that will not break. As yes, i wouldn't put my life on a Bushnell.

 

Better is subjective, which is exactly what I'm trying to say. Everything on the gun is either Izhmash or K-Var save for the foregrip, which I'm OK with only because it's not a vital component and if it broke, there's still a handguard to hold. My point being to the new guns is that they don't HAVE to spend $1k in parts to have a good gun, long as you stick with K-Var/Izhmash/Cugir shit you have an AK that won't break. Your gun's nice and I'm NOT knocking it.

 

Yeah the pistol grip fits the hand very well, I like it a lot. You should give it a try. It's an MDarms copy of the Molot factory grip. Very thick, solid construction as well and amazing pricing. MD makes great products, they're the guys who make the S-12 drum that survives getting run over http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com ... LOT/Detail

[FFDP82 4]

 

[attachment=0]IMG_1668.jpg[/attachment]

 

 

actually just curious didnt notice the mag before..

 

full parts list?

 

Yeah the mag is one of about a dozen and a half I made for myself. I looked like an idiot in a parking lot in PA with a hacksaw in middle of march but hey, the end result is great they are Romanian/Hungarian commie magazines that the body, springs, and followers were all shortened to accomodate only 15 rounds. So they're commie mags that were further commie'd! They cycle great and are fully serviceable, as well as being small sized, I find them superior to full size ones with a bar welded inside them etc.

 

K-Var stock

MDarms Molot grip

TAPCO G2 trigger group

home made metal 15 round magazines

original handguard had a rail added to it and a TAPCO intrafuse short vertical grip

stripped bulgarian AK-74 front sight block with K-Var 24mm brake permanently pinned to it

Kreb's aperture rear sight

[junkmanted 54]

i have both

go with the PAP its built better and the ones with the nice wood are getting harder to find so jump on it

[Guest]

NOT talking shit.. but you might want to add up your parts.. for some reason I do not think that your rifle meets 992 compliance count when converting an imported "sporting" rifle to non-sporting configuration.. looking at the Kvar site all the brakes appear to be foreign and I think it is still countable even though it didnt come with one.. I THINK you are just ONE US part short.. unless kvar sells some US made brakes that they don't list there..

 

i like the pistol grip and may try it out thanks for the link.. about the ONLY thing I was disappointed with was my tapco pistol grip.. it is solid.. it is ok.. it functions.. but would just like something a little better..

[FFDP82 4]

NOT talking ****.. but you might want to add up your parts.. for some reason I do not think that your rifle meets 992 compliance count when converting an imported "sporting" rifle to non-sporting configuration.. looking at the Kvar site all the brakes appear to be foreign and I think it is still countable even though it didnt come with one.. I THINK you are just ONE US part short.. unless kvar sells some US made brakes that they don't list there..

 

i like the pistol grip and may try it out thanks for the link.. about the ONLY thing I was disappointed with was my tapco pistol grip.. it is solid.. it is ok.. it functions.. but would just like something a little better..

 

K-Var Stock - US Made

G2 FCG - US Made

MDarms Grip - US Made

K-Var Brake - US Made (irrelevant anyway for 922r purposes, as it is permanently attached )

 

This is the brake I have, you must have missed it when you looked at their site? It's US Made and stamped.

( http://www.k-varcorp.com/shop/product.p ... 344&page=1 )

 

6 US Parts, 10 foreign, 922r compliant. Thanks though.

 

And yeah, TAPCO furniture is garbage. The only thing of theirs I'd keep on a rifle is the FCG because you really can't fuck up cast steel parts. I regret having their VFG on my gun, but it's an auxillary part anyway so I am OK with it for now, and it is kind of comfortable. I saw photos of a TAPCO stock that literally shattered from being dropped Not to mention the part of it that inserts into the gun is completely out of spec.

[Guest]

NOT talking ****.. but you might want to add up your parts.. for some reason I do not think that your rifle meets 992 compliance count when converting an imported "sporting" rifle to non-sporting configuration.. looking at the Kvar site all the brakes appear to be foreign and I think it is still countable even though it didnt come with one.. I THINK you are just ONE US part short.. unless kvar sells some US made brakes that they don't list there..

 

i like the pistol grip and may try it out thanks for the link.. about the ONLY thing I was disappointed with was my tapco pistol grip.. it is solid.. it is ok.. it functions.. but would just like something a little better..

 

K-Var Stock - US Made

G2 FCG - US Made

MDarms Grip - US Made

K-Var Brake - US Made (irrelevant anyway for 922r purposes, as it is permanently attached )

 

This is the brake I have, you must have missed it when you looked at their site? It's US Made and stamped.

( http://www.k-varcorp.com/shop/product.p ... 344&page=1 )

 

6 US Parts, 10 foreign, 922r compliant. Thanks though.

 

And yeah, TAPCO furniture is garbage. The only thing of theirs I'd keep on a rifle is the FCG because you really can't fugg up cast steel parts. I regret having their VFG on my gun, but it's an auxillary part anyway so I am OK with it for now, and it is kind of comfortable. I saw photos of a TAPCO stock that literally shattered from being dropped Not to mention the part of it that inserts into the gun is completely out of spec.

 

ah yeah I looked and looked because I have thought at times about adding a brake.. totally missed it..

 

why would it not matter into parts count.. it is PART of the rifle?

[FFDP82 4]

NOT talking ****.. but you might want to add up your parts.. for some reason I do not think that your rifle meets 992 compliance count when converting an imported "sporting" rifle to non-sporting configuration.. looking at the Kvar site all the brakes appear to be foreign and I think it is still countable even though it didnt come with one.. I THINK you are just ONE US part short.. unless kvar sells some US made brakes that they don't list there..

 

i like the pistol grip and may try it out thanks for the link.. about the ONLY thing I was disappointed with was my tapco pistol grip.. it is solid.. it is ok.. it functions.. but would just like something a little better..

 

K-Var Stock - US Made

G2 FCG - US Made

MDarms Grip - US Made

K-Var Brake - US Made (irrelevant anyway for 922r purposes, as it is permanently attached )

 

This is the brake I have, you must have missed it when you looked at their site? It's US Made and stamped.

( http://www.k-varcorp.com/shop/product.p ... 344&page=1 )

 

6 US Parts, 10 foreign, 922r compliant. Thanks though.

 

And yeah, TAPCO furniture is garbage. The only thing of theirs I'd keep on a rifle is the FCG because you really can't fugg up cast steel parts. I regret having their VFG on my gun, but it's an auxillary part anyway so I am OK with it for now, and it is kind of comfortable. I saw photos of a TAPCO stock that literally shattered from being dropped Not to mention the part of it that inserts into the gun is completely out of spec.

 

ah yeah I looked and looked because I have thought at times about adding a brake.. totally missed it..

 

why would it not matter into parts count.. it is PART of the rifle?

 

It matters when there are exposed threads/removable device or not. For example, if you had a Russian made barrel with threads, and nothing screwed on, it counts for 922r purposes as having a foreign made part. If you were to attach a US brake, or even just a US made nut, it becomes a US part.

 

When the device is permanently attached (in a place like NJ, NY, etc) it becomes, for 922r purposes, simply part of the barrel. i.e. mine is pinned on in five places. It's the same as if you have a 14" barrel you'd have an SBR, a 14" barrel with a 2.1" long muzzle brake welded/pinned on (all work done by a properly licensed gunsmith of course) you don't have an SBR but simply a rifle. This is what I have gathered from ATF opinions.

 

Regardless, the brake is US made anyway, so even if they changed their mind, or my understanding is wrong, it's still 922r anyway. Nothing makes sense with when it comes to ATF regs/opinions (look up the ATF tech branch letter where they determined a 14" long shoelace is a machine gun) so it's best to make sure you're 110% legal.

[Guest]

It matters when there are exposed threads/removable device or not. For example, if you had a Russian made barrel with threads, and nothing screwed on, it counts for 922r purposes as having a foreign made part. If you were to attach a US brake, or even just a US made nut, it becomes a US part.

 

When the device is permanently attached (in a place like NJ, NY, etc) it becomes, for 922r purposes, simply part of the barrel. i.e. mine is pinned on in five places. It's the same as if you have a 14" barrel you'd have an SBR, a 14" barrel with a 2.1" long muzzle brake welded/pinned on (all work done by a properly licensed gunsmith of course) you don't have an SBR but simply a rifle. This is what I have gathered from ATF opinions.

 

Regardless, the brake is US made anyway, so even if they changed their mind, or my understanding is wrong, it's still 922r anyway. Nothing makes sense with when it comes to ATF regs/opinions (look up the ATF tech branch letter where they determined a 14" long shoelace is a machine gun) so it's best to make sure you're 110% legal.

 

 

it is still a countable part as far as I know.. ONLY because you are LITERALLY counting parts.. it doesnt matter for NJs standard of threaded barrel because as you said it is welded.. it could count for length if you needed it to... again because it is welded.. but I still think it counts in parts count.. but as you said.. doesnt matter since it is US made.. :mrgreen:

[imperialfish 11]

can anyone tell me if this would be a decent setup for the siaga. What else would be needed to make it 922r compliant

 

http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?p ... 335&page=1

 

 

SGL10W

[Guest]

can anyone tell me if this would be a decent setup for the siaga. What else would be needed to make it 922r compliant

 

http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?p ... 335&page=1

 

 

SGL10W

 

 

that is cheap.. it would be a fine starting point.. and the rifle would be legal providing you are getting all three parts with the fire control group..

 

this is a good work sheet for conversions..

 

http://jobson.us/922r/

 

a Saiga starts off with 14 countable parts..

you add a pistol grip bumps it to 15 parts...

 

you then need to use 5 qualifying US made parts to get it down to 10..

 

providing all the following replacement parts are US in origin it would work like this..

pistol grip and stock are 1 each..

this gets you down to 13...

fire control group is NORMALLY 3..

gets you down to the legal count of 10..

 

could always use a US made hand guard just for one extra part to be safe..

 

I would ask them WHAT fire control group it includes and if it is THREE us made parts.. I have been really happy with the Tapco G2 units I have used and installed.. they are generally pretty smooth and clean..

[jermz1987 243]

So if you purchased a Saiga and bought that conversion kit imperialfish posted. Is that everything you would need to convert it to a "standard ak"? Also how hard is the conversion to do yourself?

[Guest]

So if you purchased a Saiga and bought that conversion kit imperialfish posted. Is that everything you would need to convert it to a "standard ak"? Also how hard is the conversion to do yourself?

 

 

easy.. and yes pretty much.. unless you want to do the FRONT end as well.. that gets tricky.. but they make some Saiga specific products..

 

it is all in how far you want to take it.. but that setup will get you there.. again providing that

a) all those parts are US made

and

b) the fire control group is comprised of 3 US parts..

 

as far as ease..

 

the saiga was my FIRST firearm.. and I had it apart and converted before EVER firing it.. they hand out AK series rifles to untrained peasants for a reason.. they are dead simple to operate and maintain.. and if you have ANY issues within the conversion I would be more than happy to guide you through it..

[Guest]

oh and that does NOT include converting it to accept AK mags.. which is a waste anyway in our state.. LOL

[FFDP82 4]

Yes, Arsenal's kits are US made.

 

That's a great price, however, it is not a good conversion kit for a newbie. First off, the trigger guard is a rivet-on not a bolt on one. Second, Arsenal triggers are double hook systems and you will need to grind a slot for that trigger to fit. And third and fourth, that one does not include a hammer, bullet guide or pin retention device. In short, that is NOT the conversion kit to buy if you are trying to convert. You will not have all the parts you need.

 

To convert a Saiga, you need:

 

AK Stock

AK Pistol Grip

AK Pistol Grip Nut and Screw

AK Trigger Group

AK Retaining Plate

AK Trigger Guard

 

To use AK magazines you'll need a bullet guide, and proper size drill bit and tap to install it (sold as kits) for either flat or round trunion depending what you have. If you want to use Surefire magazines skip the bullet guide.

 

All those parts are available at Carolinashooterssupply.com make sure you have them all in your cart, and you're good to go.

[FFDP82 4]

oh and that does NOT include converting it to accept AK mags.. which is a waste anyway in our state.. LOL

 

My dozen 15rd metal double stacks beg to differ

 

But yes, for the most part, going the bullet guide route is a waste here in NJ.

[Guest]

Yes, Arsenal's kits are US made.

 

That's a great price, however, it is not a good conversion kit for a newbie. First off, the trigger guard is a rivet-on not a bolt on one. Second, Arsenal triggers are double hook systems and you will need to grind a slot for that trigger to fit. And third and fourth, that one does not include a hammer, bullet guide or pin retention device. In short, that is NOT the conversion kit to buy if you are trying to convert. You will not have all the parts you need.

 

To convert a Saiga, you need:

 

AK Stock

AK Pistol Grip

AK Pistol Grip Nut and Screw

AK Trigger Group

AK Retaining Plate

AK Trigger Guard

 

To use AK magazines you'll need a bullet guide, and proper size drill bit and tap to install it (sold as kits) for either flat or round trunion depending what you have. If you want to use Surefire magazines skip the bullet guide.

 

All those parts are available at Carolinashooterssupply.com make sure you have them all in your cart, and you're good to go.

 

that is why I questioned the fire control group on several occasions.. as far as the trigger guard you don't need it.. it is just as easy to reuse the Saiga one..

[Guest]

oh and that does NOT include converting it to accept AK mags.. which is a waste anyway in our state.. LOL

 

My dozen 15rd metal double stacks beg to differ

 

But yes, for the most part, going the bullet guide route is a waste here in NJ.

 

right but it is just a pain in the ass IMO.. the point being sure if you have an AK AND a SAIGA then it makes PERFECT sense to do the conversion so you can share ONE magazine type.. but if you are JUST going with a Saiga doing the bullet guide is kind of pointless.. should we ever become a free state I will do the bullet guide that night.. lol it is NICE having the 30 round mag option..

[FFDP82 4]

Yes, Arsenal's kits are US made.

 

That's a great price, however, it is not a good conversion kit for a newbie. First off, the trigger guard is a rivet-on not a bolt on one. Second, Arsenal triggers are double hook systems and you will need to grind a slot for that trigger to fit. And third and fourth, that one does not include a hammer, bullet guide or pin retention device. In short, that is NOT the conversion kit to buy if you are trying to convert. You will not have all the parts you need.

 

To convert a Saiga, you need:

 

AK Stock

AK Pistol Grip

AK Pistol Grip Nut and Screw

AK Trigger Group

AK Retaining Plate

AK Trigger Guard

 

To use AK magazines you'll need a bullet guide, and proper size drill bit and tap to install it (sold as kits) for either flat or round trunion depending what you have. If you want to use Surefire magazines skip the bullet guide.

 

All those parts are available at Carolinashooterssupply.com make sure you have them all in your cart, and you're good to go.

 

that is why I questioned the fire control group on several occasions.. as far as the trigger guard you don't need it.. it is just as easy to reuse the Saiga one..

 

Yeah, but these guys are noobs. So who knows if they'll destroy the damn thing or something.

[FFDP82 4]

oh and that does NOT include converting it to accept AK mags.. which is a waste anyway in our state.. LOL

 

My dozen 15rd metal double stacks beg to differ

 

But yes, for the most part, going the bullet guide route is a waste here in NJ.

 

right but it is just a pain in the a** IMO.. the point being sure if you have an AK AND a SAIGA then it makes PERFECT sense to do the conversion so you can share ONE magazine type.. but if you are JUST going with a Saiga doing the bullet guide is kind of pointless.. should we ever become a free state I will do the bullet guide that night.. lol it is NICE having the 30 round mag option..

 

Saiga magazines will fit in an AK or bullet guide converted Saiga. You just have to grind the little tab on the front of the Saiga magazines off. Depending on tolerances they may pop right in. So if you ever moved, etc. your magazines are not wasted

[junkmanted 54]

to rivet your trigger guard in its simple you need a vice a punch and a hammer. open the vice so the trigger guard fits in,, then place it all together and crush the 4 rivets from the inside you may flatten the heads but you can reshape them with a dremil then do the rear 1 ,, or buy a jig but it will look better then screws anyday.