Saiga illegal?

[tennturk 9]

just got back from shooting at Hagues. i was looking at a way over priced Saiga ($800 bone stock), i laughed about it and went shooting. i noticed the next to me had a Saiga with the pistol grip conversion, then one of the guys comes over and said that he needs to stop and get it out of the store because its illegal. the guy even bought the damn thing at Hagues and then did the pistol conversion. the hagues guy said that because it was imported without a PG that it was illegal to put one on. i said as long as its 922 compliant there shouldnt be any problems. the hauges guy said he even called the NJ state firearms control people and they told him that the PG was illegal because it was not imported that way.

 

i love the constant grey area in this state.

[vjf915 456]

That guy is wrong.....or at least he better be

[vladtepes 1,060]

just got back from shooting at Hagues. i was looking at a way over priced Saiga ($800 bone stock), i laughed about it and went shooting. i noticed the next to me had a Saiga with the pistol grip conversion, then one of the guys comes over and said that he needs to stop and get it out of the store because its illegal. the guy even bought the damn thing at Hagues and then did the pistol conversion. the hagues guy said that because it was imported without a PG that it was illegal to put one on. i said as long as its 922 compliant there shouldnt be any problems. the hauges guy said he even called the NJ state firearms control people and they told him that the PG was illegal because it was not imported that way.

 

i love the constant grey area in this state.

 

it could or it couldn't be legal.. but lets look at the law and figure out why it would be legal or illegal as that might clear up the misunderstanding..

 

NJ law lists guns that are specifically named as being banned.. it says "these guns" are completely illegal and are not permitted..

 

the Saiga is not listed on there...

 

but it is an AK variant (like the countless other AR and AK variants that exist).. how the Saiga is imported is irrelevant because NJ firearms code does not address that in any capacity.. making the claim that it having a PG makes it illegal.. that is not in fact true and not addressed anywhere in NJ firearms law.. to scream this to you at the top of my lungs from the roof tops.. NO WHERE in NJ GUN LAW... does it state that you may not modify a rifle in any way.. what does matter is the following.. because it is a variant of a gun on the ban list.. it falls under the following.. you must make sure that the gun is not substantially identical to any of the guns listed in the NJ AWB.. the easiest way to test that is to examine the letter of the law..

 

Is the Saiga banned by name? NO it is not.. so then it is legal.. so far.. but it must also not be substantially identical to any gun on the banned list... well how would you know if it is or it isn't? lucky for us NJ addresses that..

 

a semi automatic rifle is to be considered substantially identical if it has a detachable magazine and at least TWO of the following features...

 

* Pistol grip (this is the ONE "evil feature" you will have)

* bayonet lug (CAN'T HAVE)

* flash hider or threaded barrel capable of accepting a flash hider (if you want a muzzle BRAKE you can have it.. just needs to be pinned and welded)

* folding or telescopic stock (CAN'T HAVE)

* grenade launcher (CAN'T HAVE)

 

given that recipe..

if a converted Saiga had a flash hider... or any of the other features (in addition to a pistol grip) then yes.. it would in fact be an assault weapon under NJ law.. and in turn would be illegal.. but a basic Saiga conversion is no more illegal than every other NJ compliant AK or AR pattern gun.. and the reason it is legal is simple.. the law addresses it.. and says so..

 

 

for additional info read here.. as it addresses 992 compliance as well as simple NJ compliance..

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/21787-saiga-conversion-information/

[vladtepes 1,060]

keep in mind everything I listed is in regards to a Saiga RIFLE.. NOT the shotgun.. the Saiga shotgun would be illegal with a pistol grip because the law addresses that and states that a semi automatic shotgun can not have a pistol grip.. this MIGHT be the cause of the confusion..

[vjf915 456]

keep in mind everything I listed is in regards to a Saiga RIFLE.. NOT the shotgun.. the Saiga shotgun would be illegal with a pistol grip because the law addresses that and states that a semi automatic shotgun can not have a pistol grip.. this MIGHT be the cause of the confusion..

Wow, good catch. I'm sure that's it, as the Saiga 12 is much closer to the $800 than the Saiga rifles.

[Maksim 1,504]

I am fairly certain it was this. pistol grip semi auto shotguns is a no go.... not in nj at least.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Wow, good catch. I'm sure that's it, as the Saiga 12 is much closer to the $800 than the Saiga rifles.

 

 

sigh.. what a boat I missed on that.. I had the chance to buy these some time ago a lot cheaper than that..

[Maksim 1,504]

lol. A, that is why I want one now. But no distributors have them. On gunbroker, you can find them for $650'ish now.

 

A saiga 20 is still avail, and you can fairly easily find a Saiga 410 for low 400's.

[PK90 3,573]

 

vladtepes

 

I hope you are copying and pasting. If not, you got to be tired of typing this **** every time.

 

:thsmiley_deadhorse:

[tennturk 9]

the guy was shooting a 7.62x39, it was the same one on the wall that i was looking at. it never crossed my mind that they probably hear Saiga and instantly think 12ga shotgun. i just thought it was funny that once again hagues is double the price and have no clue what they are talking about half the time.

[Maksim 1,504]

the guy was shooting a 7.62x39, it was the same one on the wall that i was looking at. it never crossed my mind that they probably hear Saiga and instantly think 12ga shotgun. i just thought it was funny that once again hagues is double the price and have no clue what they are talking about half the time.

 

If it is a Saiga 12, it is not outrageous, in fact, that is the going price. If it is a saiga 7.62x39... then yes....

 

then again, didnt you say it had a pistol grip and other parts?

 

Was it converted? Or was in indeed a milled AK, or a Vepr 2 or Vepr k?

[tennturk 9]

If it is a Saiga 12, it is not outrageous, in fact, that is the going price. If it is a saiga 7.62x39... then yes....

 

then again, didnt you say it had a pistol grip and other parts?

 

Was it converted? Or was in indeed a milled AK, or a Vepr 2 or Vepr k?

 

it was a converted Saiga. he had the TAPCO G2 FCG and the TAPCO saw grip on it. i asked the guy how he lked it because i have been stalking this forum and planning my build. im trying to talk my wife into letting buy one of PK90's rifles thats coming in. i didnt even bother disputing the legality of it to the hagues employee because i got into a squable before with one of the other guys there about my 14.5" barreled AR with an extended muzzle brake pinned and welded on to make it 16.1". and another time i wanted Glock 22 mags for my G23 and he sat there and tried to tell me it wouldnt work, so i bought one (over priced as hell) just to prove to him that it would.

[vladtepes 1,060]

If it is a Saiga 12, it is not outrageous, in fact, that is the going price. If it is a saiga 7.62x39... then yes....

 

then again, didnt you say it had a pistol grip and other parts?

 

Was it converted? Or was in indeed a milled AK, or a Vepr 2 or Vepr k?

 

I THINK...

the one the poster had was unconverted (so he was OK by the shops standard) ...

the OTHER gun there (that got kicked out) was a different person and it was converted (pistol grip and likely other parts)..

the OTHER gun (on the wall) was "stock"

 

and I agree.. not a bad NJ shop price on a 12.. if it was a rifle that would be a ridiculous price.. I could sell converted ones at that price and still make a profit.. LOL

[vladtepes 1,060]

it was a converted Saiga. he had the TAPCO G2 FCG and the TAPCO saw grip on it. i asked the guy how he lked it because i have been stalking this forum and planning my build. im trying to talk my wife into letting buy one of PK90's rifles thats coming in. i didnt even bother disputing the legality of it to the hagues employee because i got into a squable before with one of the other guys there about my 14.5" barreled AR with an extended muzzle brake pinned and welded on to make it 16.1". and another time i wanted Glock 22 mags for my G23 and he sat there and tried to tell me it wouldnt work, so i bought one (over priced as hell) just to prove to him that it would.

 

 

here is the problem you will experience the rest of your stay in NJ..

the laws in NJ are very confusing.. because they directly impact us.. we know them.. TO THE LETTER..

 

a shop owner..

a law enforcement officer..

a new reporter..

 

these people are not into firearms.. so they will likely not have much in the way of knowledge.. sure you will get the occasional guy (or girl) that has a clue.. but %90 of the time.. a reporter will call a Saiga a "machine gun" or "assault weapon"... a cop will question the legality of hollow points.. and a shop owner will tell you there is a 10 round limit in NJ as he tries to sell you magazines from his stockpile of mags dating back to the federal AWB.. lol

 

you can take their word on things..

you can take mine..

 

or with a little reading.. and study.. you can understand the law as it is written... it is not THAT long.. and it is not THAT wordy.. and there ARE gray areas.. but you can at least understand the points that are black and white..

 

Paul is a great guy.. buy a Saiga from him and convert it if that is what you want... I doubt you would be let down.. they are great guns..

 

and more importantly I have no reason to believe they are illegal as per the DEFINITION OF ASSAULT WEAPON defined by NJ law..

[vladtepes 1,060]

vladtepes

 

I hope you are copying and pasting. If not, you got to be tired of typing this **** every time.

 

:thsmiley_deadhorse:

 

 

some copy paste.. some type....

 

I type fast.. especially when it is something that I care about!

[tennturk 9]

here is the problem you will experience the rest of your stay in NJ..

the laws in NJ are very confusing.. because they directly impact us.. we know them.. TO THE LETTER..

 

a shop owner..

a law enforcement officer..

a new reporter..

 

these people are not into firearms.. so they will likely not have much in the way of knowledge.. sure you will get the occasional guy (or girl) that has a clue.. but %90 of the time.. a reporter will call a Saiga a "machine gun" or "assault weapon"... a cop will question the legality of hollow points.. and a shop owner will tell you there is a 10 round limit in NJ as he tries to sell you magazines from his stockpile of mags dating back to the federal AWB.. lol

 

you can take their word on things..

you can take mine..

 

or with a little reading.. and study.. you can understand the law as it is written... it is not THAT long.. and it is not THAT wordy.. and there ARE gray areas.. but you can at least understand the points that are black and white..

 

Paul is a great guy.. buy a Saiga from him and convert it if that is what you want... I doubt you would be let down.. they are great guns..

 

yea, just tell my wife how great they are so she'll let me get it...lol...i already used the zombie apacolyse method for my AR, clay shooting with my friends for the shotgun, home defense for the Glock's (she doesnt know about the new G19 yet so dont tell her lol), and i said that the ruger 10/22 was for her but she has never shot it hahahaha.

[vladtepes 1,060]

yea, just tell my wife how great they are so she'll let me get it...lol...i already used the zombie apacolyse method for my AR, clay shooting with my friends for the shotgun, home defense for the Glock's (she doesnt know about the new G19 yet so dont tell her lol), and i said that the ruger 10/22 was for her but she has never shot it hahahaha.

 

 

just show her this..

 

[vjf915 456]

Would be interesting to see what happens if he didn't shake all the dirt out of it first....

[almiz111 26]

just got back from shooting at Hagues. i was looking at a way over priced Saiga ($800 bone stock), i laughed about it and went shooting. i noticed the next to me had a Saiga with the pistol grip conversion, then one of the guys comes over and said that he needs to stop and get it out of the store because its illegal. the guy even bought the damn thing at Hagues and then did the pistol conversion. the hagues guy said that because it was imported without a PG that it was illegal to put one on. i said as long as its 922 compliant there shouldnt be any problems. the hauges guy said he even called the NJ state firearms control people and they told him that the PG was illegal because it was not imported that way.

 

i love the constant grey area in this state.

 

 

Hi to All,

 

I guess if it were not for Saiga conversions this blog would be pure dead. Cut and paste is great idea. Lots of stuff just turns over and over and over.

 

So apparently I am a fool for buying a Saiga SGL24 (can you say AK?) at Shore Shot for ~$750. I aint rich but am guilty as charged. But here is the deal.

 

Off the shelf:

OK in NJ

Nine foreign parts

Not on the forbidden model list

Only one evil feature - PG.

 

Better: Nice finish; rivets are perfect; factory scope bracket; black furniture; mag indents perfect; chromed. Made at Izmash factory, Russia and Arsenal Las Vegas. Factory inspected and test fired.

 

I will say this--- my SKS was kinda like a real rifle. The AK is lighter, smaller, plastic furniture, looks a little like a toy!! HA. But it will do the damage as required. If an SKS detachable mag were NOT illegal I would not have the AK.

 

That all fits the KISS idea for me. Also you can get a milled AK made over in PA for ~$800; sold OK in NJ. Don't know the quality. Details if you want them.

 

almiz111

[vjf915 456]

...........I'm confused, what's your point?

[almiz111 26]

...........I'm confused, what's your point?

 

 

The hourly/daily/weekly/monthly posts about AK legal/not legal go on into infinity. So buy one off the shelf and go to the range already.

[Malsua 1,422]

Blog?

 

This isn't a blog.

[vjf915 456]

The hourly/daily/weekly/monthly posts about AK legal/not legal go on into infinity. So buy one off the shelf and go to the range already.

Why buy one off the shelf, when you can build your own for less? Point being, you bought yours for $750? And I'm assuming that everything on your gun is generic. Original handguard, Tapco stock, Tapco SAW grip? I just finished ordering the parts for my build. Base gun, chose which grip and stock I wanted, got a quad rail for it (not top of the line, but certainly better looking that the stock handguard, and allows me to mount whatever I want on it), and sling attachments.......all for $550 after NICS, any tax, and any shipping charges. Plus, when I am done building it, I will know the gun inside and out. Playing the parts game is easy enough, we have a member who was more then generous enough to do a write-up that helps play the parts game. Is your gun nice? Yes it is, I'm sure it will tear through paper just fine. But it is overpriced compared to what you can build with your hands.

[vladtepes 1,060]

when I am done building it, I will know the gun inside and out.

 

that is the most valuable thing you purchased..

[gunnyr 17]

Seems to be a bit of confusion here regarding almiz's SGL24.

 

It is a Saiga but it has already been converted by Arsenal Inc into a pistol grip config. I believe they use KVAR components and the price of $750 is about market price. All the Arsenal Saigas come this way.

 

So the SGL24 isn't the stock $350 - $400 Saiga with the craptastic trigger that should be converted as soon as you are done test firing it.

[vjf915 456]

Seems to be a bit of confusion here regarding almiz's SGL24.

 

It is a Saiga but it has already been converted by Arsenal Inc into a pistol grip config. I believe they use KVAR components and the price of $750 is about market price. All the Arsenal Saigas come this way.

 

So the SGL24 isn't the stock $350 - $400 Saiga with the craptastic trigger that should be converted as soon as you are done test firing it.

Right, I knew it was converted, but wasn't aware of the furniture at the time I made my initial post. Anyway, my build includes a KVAR stock, and other parts that are pretty comparable. Again, $200 cheaper, I get to pick EXACTLY what I want, and I know the rifle inside and out.

[almiz111 26]

Right, I knew it was converted, but wasn't aware of the furniture at the time I made my initial post. Anyway, my build includes a KVAR stock, and other parts that are pretty comparable. Again, $200 cheaper, I get to pick EXACTLY what I want, and I know the rifle inside and out.

 

 

Ok first I gotta look up 'blog'. Sorry about that. Obviously I don't know a post from a blog or a whatever but not sure I care either. HA! You turn on the computer, start typing and that's it.

 

If you build your own I can only say 'more power to ya' and I mean it. You are savings bucks but better, you are getting some great value. The inside/out knowledge is invaluable. I'm probably too lazy to do the research, get it right and do the work. Up to a point I love to tinker. I also have trouble sorting legal fact and fiction on this blog/forum/post. The careful detailed answers are appreciated!!

 

Have a good one!

[vjf915 456]

Ok first I gotta look up 'blog'. Sorry about that. Obviously I don't know a post from a blog or a whatever but not sure I care either. HA! You turn on the computer, start typing and that's it.

 

If you build your own I can only say 'more power to ya' and I mean it. You are savings bucks but better, you are getting some great value. The inside/out knowledge is invaluable. I'm probably too lazy to do the research, get it right and do the work. Up to a point I love to tinker. I also have trouble sorting legal fact and fiction on this blog/forum/post. The careful detailed answers are appreciated!!

 

Have a good one!

I wasn't the one who made the "blog" comment, I wasn't really sure I understood what it meant either. Regardless, if you are not comfortable with building the gun, then buying it already built is better than messing up the build.

[vladtepes 1,060]

received via PM on Saiga12

 

Your Saiga is awesome looking,however I have been called a felon by the team @ Hagues for doing a G2 trigger & PG conversion on my Saiga.Was told it is illegal in NJ for any alteration not factory performed,

regardless even if 922 compliant as mine is.Was told to remove SAIGA from range.Wondering what your thoughts are,if you have had same issues in our state of NJ.

 

I am not a lawyer.. I am not a law enforcement agent.. so my advice is only that.. advice..

 

The legality of a modified Saiga is extremely simple in NJ...

 

Is the gun itself banned in NJ? meaning is it illegal for you to buy a Saiga in NJ..

NO it is not.. the gun itself is %100 legal.. it along with other guns that have an AK action are sold in NJ..WASR, mac90, etc.. so you can have a gun like that in NJ...

so having the gun itself is legal..

next is the aspect of modifying it..

are there laws on the books that say you can not work on your own gun?

NO there are not.. therefore so far we have established that

1) it is legal to own a Saiga

2) it is legal to work on your own gun

So next we have to address the specifics of working on the gun.. are there any aspects concerning modifying a Saiga that COULD make it an illegal gun? YES there are.. so if we work on this gun we must be very careful to not break the laws..

the gun MUST be BOTH 922 AND NJ compliant..

to be 922 compliant you must play the parts game.. and get the foreign parts count down low enough to be US legal..I always go 9 or less but I think it is 10 or less.. if the gun is 922 legal you are almost there.. you need to be sure that you have not modified the gun in any way that makes it NJ illegal..

you must satisfy the minimum length restrictions for a rifle in NJ..(do not know the length off the top of my head but pretty sure it is 16inch barrel and 26inch gun minimum)

next no magazines more than 15 rounds..

if it has enough US parts to satisfy 922, 15 rounds or less for magazine and it is minimum length.. there is one last hurdle..

the gun is a semi automatic rifle that accepts detachable magazines.. so it can only have ONE of the following and still remain NJ legal..

pistol grip (which you have)

flash hider or barrel threaded to accept a flash hider (can not have)

folding or telescopic stock (can not have)

bayonet lug (can not have)

grenade launcher (can not have)

 

as long as you have satisfied ALL of those things.. I don't care what that guy says.. ask him the statute that says you can not modify a gun only the factory can? there is no such law.. I have owned MANY Saigas and have shot them at MANY public ranges.. along side police.. county range officers.. and so on.. never had an issue..

 

all the info I gave you is based on the Saiga RIFLE only.. the shotgun has a bunch of other rules..

 

we actually talked about you before on NJGF I suggest you join there.. one of our members was there the day you were harassed..

 

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/22278-saiga-illegal/page__p__296984__hl__%2Bsaiga+%2Billegal__fromsearch__1#entry296984

[Nick T 4]

just show her this..

 

Just one question what exactly are shites and gaiggles???