G17 VS G19

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

 

I dislike the .40 on principle, and also because of personal experience not related to the performance of the cartridge.

 

On Principle

The .40 is symbolic of the pussification of America. You see... in the past, someone at a firearms company took a look at a cartridge like the .38 S&W and said, "Hey... If we made this thing longer, we could get more powder into it and make it more powerful." Everybody within earshot said, "Let's do it!", and the .38 Special was born.

 

One night several decades later, Colonel D. B. Wesson and Phil Sharpe were sitting around on stools made from elephant legs, drinking straight whiskey and smoking Cuban cigars when the Col picked up a .38 Special and said, "Dude, we should make this thing longer, stuff it full of smokeless powder, and give it a cool name. It would kick a**!" to which Phil Sharpe replied, "You're a weakling if you don't", and Bingo! the .357 Magnum was born.

 

The same thing happened with the .44 - except Elmer Keith wouldn't stop whining about it so he was drinking whiskey alone, angrily writing magazine articles until Remington finally made his cartridge.

 

The .40 was developed backwards.

 

In April of 1986, the FBI was involved in a shootout in Miami with two heavily armed career criminals. The bad guys were killed, but not before they took the lives of FBI Special Agents Gerald Dove and Benjamin Grogan. The subsequent investigation placed partial blame for the agents' deaths on the lack of stopping power exhibited by their 9mm handguns, so the FBI adopted the far superior 10mm cartridge.

 

Field agents loved the additional firepower, but some of the sissy office staff complained about the 10mm's recoil. One day, some pale doughy accountant picked up a 10mm and said, "If someone else would make this smaller and weaker, it wouldn't hurt my little hand as much when I shoot it." His transgender assistant said, "That a great idea! They could even make the guns smaller to fit in my evening bag", and the .40 was born.

 

Personal Experience

I've been shooting since my early teens. When I was looking for a carry handgun, I made the mistake of asking a blowhard know-it-all former co-worker his opinion.

 

He had one gun - a Sigma in .40 S&W - which in his mind made him an expert on firearms - and since he had a .40, it had to be the best cartridge ever conceived. After that, every time he saw me he'd spend what seemed like hours expounding on the virtues of the .40 as "the perfect cartridge". As a result, I began to hate it.

 

The deal was sealed soon thereafter, when I had a bad gun shop experience with some crusty old fossil that tried to hard-sell me a .40. The non-conformist in me kicked into high gear and I said to myself, "I'm never going to own one of these friggin' things".

 

A side story about the know-it-all blowhard:

 

A couple of years ago I was talking to the know-it-all blowhard and I mentioned that I was reloading for my .500. He said, "There's no such thing as a .50 caliber revolver". I directed him to Google and told him to do his research. (He must've missed the release of the X-frames because he couldn't hear it over the sound of how awesome the .40 is).

 

After he decided that it existed, he asked if he could shoot my .500 because he was "proficient with big bore revolvers" and might be able to show me some tips on shooting it. So, I took Mr. Proficiency out to the range, put a single mild load in my 8" .500, he shot it, and dropped my gun! He grabbed his wrist and started hopping around crying like Nancy Kerrigan. He broke the fiberoptic front sight on my revolver and never paid for it. He still loves the .40 though.

 

 

Source: http://www.vintagepistols.com/40isbad.html

[SSlav 14]

Source: http://www.vintagepistols.com/40isbad.html

 

The author of that is a moron. Feel free to go with his advice though.

[Pew Pew Plates 358]

The author of that is a moron. Feel free to go with his advice though.

 

 

Its not advice, its more of a story than even an opinion. But ok.

[mipafox 438]

G19 is better because G17 is just plain fuggly.

 

That being said, plastic guns never get attention from the womminz round these parts anyhow.

[ronhonda 86]

To the OP;

Get what you want.

Everyone here and elsewhere will have an opinion for and against it.

Take into consideration what YOU will do with the gun and go from there, because in the end YOU are the one paying for the gun.

So with all that being said, as a reloader, and a practitioner of various action shooting sports, and an owner of a G17, I would get the 22 or 35.

As someone else mentioned, can be used in 3 different classes, 40s&w loaded to minor is better than a 9mm, and "full" size mags are NJ compliant.

I base my opinion on what kind of shooting I do and go from there. So what is practical to me, might not be for you.

So get what you want and fudge everyone else including me.

[ronhonda 86]

G19 is better because G17 is just plain fuggly.

 

That being said, plastic guns never get attention from the womminz round these parts anyhow.

 

Last time I checked, they both looked the same.

[SSlav 14]

That being said, plastic guns never get attention from the womminz round these parts anyhow.

 

My wife really likes her M&P Pro.

[lunker 274]

There is no debating that 10mm is superior to 40s&w ballistically. Same size bullet at lower pressue and with less recoil when loaded for the same velocity, and you can push that bullet much harder in a case that is 1/8th inch longer and takes a large primer. The ONLY advantage I see for 40 is that it can be put in smaller framed guns. That is why the FBI made the switch.

[SSlav 14]

There is no debating that 10mm is superior to 40s&w ballistically. Same size bullet at lower pressue and with less recoil when loaded for the same velocity

 

 

Can you please explain the physics by which you achieve the same velocity with the same wight of the bullet and produce less recoil.

[lunker 274]

Can you please explain the physics by which you achieve the same velocity with the same wight of the bullet and produce less recoil.

I should have been more specific and said recoil impulse, which is what the shooter actuallly feels. The 40 generates more pressure to achieve the same velocity as the 10mm due to its smaller case.

[ronhonda 86]

I will respectfully disagree.

Personally, having fired factory self defense 10 mm loads and similar 40s&w loads from the same gun, (2011 with different top ends) the 10mm had significantly more recoil than the 40s&w.

[lunker 274]

I wouln't argue against your experience, but generally self defense loads in the the same bullet weight run 150fps (or more) faster than ones in 40. That could account for some difference.

[mipafox 438]

My wife really likes her M&P Pro.

 

What I meant was, womminz get all hot when they see a yins luggin a nice wheel gun, 1911, Sig, etc. They ignore the Tupperware parties. Not talking bout what they shoot or carry.

[Rifleman1 32]

There is no debating that 10mm is superior to 40s&w ballistically. Same size bullet at lower pressue and with less recoil when loaded for the same velocity, and you can push that bullet much harder in a case that is 1/8th inch longer and takes a large primer. The ONLY advantage I see for 40 is that it can be put in smaller framed guns. That is why the FBI made the switch.

 

 

I will put the Gen4 G21 on my 2011 wish list and the G20 on the 2012 wish list. Maybe they'll have a Gen4 G20 by then.

[lunker 274]

I will put the Gen4 G21 on my 2011 wish list and the G20 on the 2012 wish list. Maybe they'll have a Gen4 G20 by then.

Get the G21 then buy the G20 upper from Glockmeister.com. Two guns. One permit.

[mipafox 438]

Get the G21 then buy the G20 upper from Glockmeister.com. Two guns. One permit.

 

Then buy the Advantage Arms .22 kit. Now it's three guns.

 

Not sure of their status on Gen IV Glocks, but I just checked the website and it seems they have something.

[axeman_g 128]

Best advice your going to get from myself or anyone else in the thread that has careened off track wildly.

 

If you like .40 thats great. I just never understood the draw of a round that is marginally better then hitest 9mm, and marginally less powerful then unleaded 10mm.

 

Designed by bureacrats for bureacrats. But it did take off more then .45GAP

[Old School 611]

Best advice your going to get from myself or anyone else in the thread that has careened off track wildly.

 

If you like .40 thats great. I just never understood the draw of a round that is marginally better then hitest 9mm, and marginally less powerful then unleaded 10mm.

 

Designed by bureacrats for bureacrats. But it did take off more then .45GAP

 

 

+1 Right on the money. An excellent solution to a non-existant problem!

[Rifleman1 32]

Get the G21 then buy the G20 upper from Glockmeister.com. Two guns. One permit.

 

 

I joined GSSF and will be able to buy one Glock a year at the LEO discounted price. GSSF told me they are getting 800 applications a day and apologized for the delay in getting me my membership info. My pistol permit expires at the end of May. Hopefully the Gen4 G21 will be out so I can buy it at the GSSF pricing before it expires.

 

Good idea on the G20 upper. I will check that out. No issues with the magazine taking the 10mm rounds and feeding properly?

[lunker 274]

 

Good idea on the G20 upper. I will check that out. No issues with the magazine taking the 10mm rounds and feeding properly?

Unfortunately, you will also need to buy G20 mags.

[Rifleman1 32]

Unfortunately, you will also need to buy G20 mags.

 

 

I will also need to find out if the G20 Upper will fit on a Gen4 G21. I would think that they would all need to be Gen4's to work properly. $360 for the upper + $75 for 3 mags puts the cost in the neighborhood of what the LEO discounted price should be...

[rauchman 3]

Uhhhhh....

 

Not getting into caliber debates here.

 

In answer to the OP's question...

 

I have a Gen2 G19, Gen2 G17, Gen 2.5 (I think) G26 (recently purchased used), Gen3 G19 and Gen4 23. I am the most accurate shooting the G17 slow fire. The G19's & G23 are right behind as is the G26. However, when shooting faster than slow fire, I find the G19's and surprisingly, the G26 to excel over the G17. The difference I notice is the hump on the backstrap of the grip. The G17's sits very low, the G19 higher and the G26 higher yet. The higher the hump, the better control I have in shooting. I find the G17's grip to be vague, whereas the smaller offerings give me more control on repeat shot recovery. If the G17's backstrap hump were higher up in the grip, I have to believe greater control could be obtained...for me.

 

Also, changing out the sights dramatically increased accuracy capability for me. I have yet to change out the sights on the G26, but I was pulling 12 yard 5 round groups averaging 2" during my one outing w/ it. Having said all this, I am most impressed w/ the Gen4's slightly smaller grip design as well as the newer texturing.

 

My next 2 Glocks are a Gen4 G35 & Gen4 G21 or Gen3 G21 SF....maybe a Gen4 G19 too!!!

 

As a side note, at some point I want to purchase a Gen3 G17 and chop it to take G19 mags. I'd like to experiment w/ raising the hump in the backstrap as well.

[GRIZ 3,369]

1.3" of sight radius is a pretty big advantage.

 

That depends on the barrel length. If your talking 1.3" onto 2 or 3" that's significant. We are talking adding that onto the 6" or so the G19 has so the value diminishes.

 

Most people will show diffrence in their shooting between a 6" or a 7.25" (or thereabouts) sight radius. Some shoot worse with a longer sight radius as it will magnify any shake all shooters have to some degree.