Force on Force

[SSlav 14]

The problem though is the uneven amount of experience everyone shares. You can have "representatives" from each discipline but the fact of the matter is unless they all have similar levels of experience it isn't exactly a clear indicator on the pros/cons of each, or to see which one fares better.

 

I'll go further and say that even people with the same level of experience from the same discipline can produce vastly different results even doing something that is familiar to them. Vlad and I are at a roughly similar level, but there were certainly plenty of matches where there was a wide gap between us performance wise. This is not exact science by any means. That is why there needs to be a degree of caution in assuming that any results would be statistically significant.

[Shane45 807]

Slav, that is exactly why I think more is to be gained by simply training and sharing the experience with each other. Forget different people, I know I can have a widely different result from myself depending if I may be having a "good" day or not so much.

[SSlav 14]

I think this stage is a good example of why I question IDPA as far as forming better habits than USPSA. I am sure the stage description read something like - "Engage T1 & T2 on the move while retreating to cover." Is that what you would do in the real world scenario? I think I would do the following:

 

Going from the most preferred to the least preferred.

1.Run as fast as I can to cover and then keep on running while keeping as much cover as I can between myself and the bad guys. I do not think I would even draw my gun.

2. Run as fast as I can for cover while drawing my gun and then engage bad guys.

3. Run as fast as I can for cover wile popping a couple of shots in the general direction of the bad guys then engage them from cover.

 

In reality #1 should probably be #1, #2, & #3 and 2 & 3 should be 4 & 5.

 

I think we will all gain something out of it including some new friends.

 

I hope so. Printed communication lacks severely in the emotional context. Frequently things stated in jest are taken seriously while things said seriously are perceived as sarcasm ... etc. This tends to lead to a lot of misunderstandings even between people that know each other, never mind complete strangers.

[Shane45 807]

Yeah thats why I posted the vid of this stage in particuler. I think if IDPA rules where used in a real life engagement layed out this way. the closest BG would stick his pistol in my ear while i engaged the far targets. FWIW I did not like the way the stages were done at this match. With that being said, sometimes I will simply ignore the rules and shoot it my way and take the penalties. Since I use IDPA as "practice" anyway because I cant get anyone else to set up all of that for 15 bucks, I can suppress my competitiveness enough to gain what Im after

.

 

I wholheartedly agree on the typed word vs in person.

[Joelk 61]

I am interested in the procedure we are going to follow in data collection/evaluation. Obviously it is not going to be possible to do this as a blind study - which would have been the best approach(actually double blind would be the best). However we should strive to do what we can. As I recall there were a couple of assertions:

 

1. Gun games can instill bad habits that will kill in "real world scenarios".

2. Certain gun games are better than others specifically IDPA is better than USPSA

3. Training classes are better than gun games.

 

So it would seem that we need 3 types of "contestants".

 

1. Experience is limited to USPSA (Vlad and I qualify I think between the two of us we may have five IDPA matches, no training classes and no airsoft experience).

2. Experience is limited to IDPA - not sure who will represent this group.

3. Experience is limited to training classes - same as above.

 

All three types of contestants should go through the same scenarios several times each. Ideally the "referees" should have no knowledge as to which group is which.

I may be way off here, but I don't think Tosser is planning on any "data collection/evaluation", and I don't think there are any contestants, or anyone judging performance. I think he is just planning on running some FOF drills and/or FOF scenarios, and letting people see what happens.

[Cavalier1979 0]

hey

 

I know this is off topic but is USANA down with you hosting 3(2) gun shoots down there? You had some last year and they where awesome..

[Ray Ray 3,566]

What's a control group? And why does this have to be so far away from me!

[Vlad G 345]

A control group is a known quantity with a certain baseline to compare against your experimental results on other subjects. For example if you want to know how many blonds have blue eyes and if it is more then average for the population, you probably need some blonds, but you also need some brunettes you study the same way so you have something to compare against.

 

Its far away for a lot of us.

[Joelk 61]

I have talked to Tosser, and he has convinced me to help out with this force on force event. I can tell you that it is not going to be any kind of study or competition. There are going to be a few drills which will focus on some of the differences between competitive and combative points of view. Participants will run the drills and take from it what they will.

 

I can give a few hints as to the two drills that I will be assisting with.

 

One will be a use of cover drill, which will require the shooter (airsoft) to use a piece of cover to shoot a target. This should sound pretty familiar, but one twist is that there will be return fire (airsoft) from the target.

 

The other drill I will be helping with pertains to managing unknown contacts. This drill will start with the participant walking down the street with his/her weapon being carried (open or concealed) and dealing with various people on the street. The people may, or may not, be friendly, indifferent, hostile, or even violent. In this drill participants may face anything from harsh language to physical violence.

 

That is all I can share at this point. I am not sure what else Tosser has planned for your entertainment (shoot house?), but I am sure it will be fun too.

[Zed's_Dead 16]

I'm a member at USANA and even though I have no airsoft equipment, I'd love to come watch if that's possible.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

We should have some airsoft equipment for loan for the purposes of this training.

[bigdaddy7 0]

Is this event still on? Can't wait!

[Tosser 61]

Well boys I have bad news.

 

 

On June 14th at 1930 the range is being brought before the Town zoning board and there is a possibility it will be permanently shut down. In light of this I'm going to cancel this event.

 

 

If anyone is available to come to the meeting to make a show of support please let me know and I'll pass along more details.

[Vlad G 345]

That sucks, and I do appreciate your effort for putting it together. If you ever reschedule it, please let us know. Our disagreements aside, this is a suck sandwich situation and I hope you guys figure it out.

[Zed's_Dead 16]

Well boys I have bad news.

 

 

On June 14th at 1930 the range is being brought before the Town zoning board and there is a possibility it will be permanently shut down. In light of this I'm going to cancel this event.

 

 

If anyone is available to come to the meeting to make a show of support please let me know and I'll pass along more details.

 

I assume Skip has legal counsel?