OBRPC P.P.C. FRIDAY 11/11

[Jon 264]

Jon,

 

Up to now I've let this whole situation diffuse. NO LONGER! Your juvenile attitude and manner is UNACCEPTABLE! In my two emails to you (in November, right after the Match) I outlined that the fee structure was set by the Board of Trustees to encourage non-members to become members. I NEVER told you to "pound sand" or any such thing. Instead I invited you to become a member of our fine Club so you would only pay the $5.00 Match fee. You declined the invitation with further insult added to injury. So this whole "thing" boils down to money or your lack of it. You NEVER brought up any safety violation either here two months ago or in either private email to me immediately after the Match. I KNOW this because I just checked EVERYTHING once more prior to writing this response. That was two months ago! Why is that Jon? Isn't safety a primary concern of yours? Now you're just throwing it out there as a way to bring discredit to our League & Club and that will not go unchallenged! I've even taken a hiatus from NJGF for a while so I could forget about your un-called for comments. But I did answer a non-members inquiry just yesterday as truthfull as I can, and for that I and everyone else must endure your pounce & rant. UNCOOL and NOT something a Moderator should be engaged in! I might call Max about this and forward him ALL of our emails for him to weigh in on this. Right now a retraction & appology will make-do. Let's "shake hands" and forget about it! You have till Sunday night to post something here. Do the right thing, MAN-UP!

 

I never said anything about a safety violation. The rules of PPC are not followed for everyone. After a course of fire if anyone has a malfunction, or simply didn't shoot fast enough, the RO allows them to spend as long as they want on the firing line by themselves to make up those rounds. This is against the rules and a joke that it's allowed to happen. As for my "pounce and rant" as you call it, I am simply trying to save some new shooters a couple bucks, and direct them to events that allow far more shooting for the same price. Charging $20 for a 60 round course of fire that lasts 15 minutes is outrageous. You can shoot static steel, action steel, Action rimfire and USPSA for the same price, or IDPA for half the price, and the rules of each event are strictly followed. Furthermore, for new shooters looking to draw from a holster for the first time, the one RO per shooter format of every other action pistol event is far safer. There is no safety check for new shooters to PPC, nor is there an RO appointed to each shooter as in the other shooting disciplines.

 

For OB members looking for a lax stand and shoot type event without emphasis on the published rules, PPC @ OB makes sense. Outside of that strict criteria, there are a multitude of better options.

[Frank N Terry Szymkowski 0]

reading the rules I believe I can shoot a .22. This would be the one I choose and I have a S&W 22a semi auto..

 

Forgive me, but what's a "22a"? Reason being that there's usually folks with extra mags of all makes & sizes. Hell I bring my .45 Wilson mags and I shoot a 686 S&W revolver! So you may be able to borrow some, as only six shooters are firing at any one Relay. As far as a holster goes, you might be loaned that as well, or you can start from the "low-ready" position with the gun pointed at the floor with your finger alongside the slide, not near the trigger. So any way we can help you, we will!

 

Dave

[alec.mc 180]

reading the rules I believe I can shoot a .22. This would be the one I choose and I have a S&W 22a semi auto..

 

.22 caliber is fine, I beilive the confusion was with you calling it 22a, most people simply refer to it as .22, 22lr, or rimfire.

 

-alec

[Smokin .50 1,907]

I never said anything about a safety violation. The rules of PPC are not followed for everyone. After a course of fire if anyone has a malfunction, or simply didn't shoot fast enough, the RO allows them to spend as long as they want on the firing line by themselves to make up those rounds. This is against the rules and a joke that it's allowed to happen. As for my "pounce and rant" as you call it, I am simply trying to save some new shooters a couple bucks, and direct them to events that allow far more shooting for the same price. Charging $20 for a 60 round course of fire that lasts 15 minutes is outrageous. You can shoot static steel, action steel, Action rimfire and USPSA for the same price, or IDPA for half the price, and the rules of each event are strictly followed. Furthermore, for new shooters looking to draw from a holster for the first time, the one RO per shooter format of every other action pistol event is far safer. There is no safety check for new shooters to PPC, nor is there an RO appointed to each shooter as in the other shooting disciplines.

 

For OB members looking for a lax stand and shoot type event without emphasis on the published rules, PPC @ OB makes sense. Outside of that strict criteria, there are a multitude of better options.

Jon,

 

First let me say that I'm glad that there weren't any safety violations.

 

As to the "Rules" that you refer to please note that our League Members appreciate the laid-back format of being able to "make-up" what ever rounds they couldn't get off due to a jam, etc. This in fact is somewhat similar to NRA Bullseye, only we don't take any X's away when scoring. It only takes a few seconds and the R-O gets to concentrate on whether or not to allow that gun to continue in the Match or to suggest a replacement that's fully functional. As an outsider (visitor) on a busy night, perhaps that wasn't clear to you. Our Course of Fire was also customized to include a "strong-hand only" drill of 6 shots with no reload from the 7 yard line in 9 seconds, and then 12 shots in 30 seconds from the 15 yard line. The original COF (in the Rule Book) had us shooting all 18 of the aforementioned shots from all of the way back at 25 yards, utilizing the barricade. By customizing the COF our League participants get more practical experience drawing a loaded sidearm from a holster as well as starting to learn the strong-hand only shooting that is often seen in IDPA, USPSA and other disciplines. This in fact INCREASES the over-all safety at our other Matches as our League Members try-out other disciplines. Since Old Bridge is "member-centric", we listened to our members and the new COF was born. The League has adopted this new COF as SOP. Further, as long as any make-up shots are available to anyone, this is completely fair and practically no different than say an Indoor-Action League Member being allowed to shoot an entire run over again due to a jam, which does happen from time to time.

 

Now we're back to the money issue in your post above. Old Bridge IDPA charges $20.00 for non-members, as directed by the Board of Trustees. SCFGPA does charge only $10, however they don't provide their members with both an outdoor range and an indoor range. Further, they also don't provide the opportunity for their members to shoot at a 10-point 100 yard outdoor range (with Match Director's permission) while the SCFGPA IDPA League is using their indoor range. They also don't provide the opportunity for their members to shoot on a dedicated shotgun range during an IDPA Match (with Match Director's permission). Hell they don't shoot clays there at all! During most Sundays in the Old Bridge R&P Club calendar the entire 12 point indoor range is available for our members for casual shooting, practice and load development. All of this extra opportunity to shoot costs money to keep running. That's why the Board set the rates. As a discipline chairman I have to follow them!

 

To say that PPC is only 15 minutes and other disciplines are longer could be constued as somewhat of a misnomer. Each Relay of PPC takes approx. 45 minutes to shoot & score. Obviously you don't have a gun in your hands that entire time. Actual 60 rounds of lead-pumping clock time is 3:56 for all 5 stages. Most Shooters do at least 2 full Relays, so that's almost 8 full minutes and 120 rounds of lead being pumped! By contrast, Indoor Action (that I LOVE to shoot) has (2) 16-round stages & (2) 18-round stages on most nights. That's 68 rounds, not including any make-ups. Most Shooters shoot most stages in 20 seconds or less, so actual lead-pumping is around 1:20 clock time, and that's if you're both new & slow. Friends of mine do some of these same stages in 5 or 6 seconds! No additional shooting beyond those 80 seconds is available. With both Leagues you're committed for an entire evening. That's the reality of the situation. One League isn't better or worse than the other, just different!

 

As far as a safety check goes, we pay strict attention to new Shooters. We make them watch 1-2 Relays PRIOR to shooting our League so they can see how it's all done, familiarize themselves with Range Commands, take notes, ask questions, etc. Then we make sure that they're mentally prepared to do the Match, as well as having all of the equipment that's needed. We assign one of our "regulars" to keep an eye on the veteran League Members while the R-O concentrates on watching the new folks to make sure that they're safe with their gun handling. Since there is extremely limited movement (no USPSA-style runnin' & gunnin') involved in our discipline, we concentrate on teaching new Shooters how to sit and lay prone during the COF so no one gets muzzle-swept. Obviously our techniques work, since you saw no safety violations during your visit with us and we rarely have to DQ anyone!

 

Please take a minute to digest what I've written. It wasn't written with any "attitude". Forums are a great source of information, even if they're somewhat one-sided with limited perspective. They're also a PITA! Some Forums seem to have a zest for overly zealous opinions, as the FACTS fall by the wayside. As veteran Shooters we should always portray our sport in a good light. In my 40+ years of shooting I've NEVER written contoversial remarks about anything I've seen or heard take place at ANY gun club that I'm either a member of or was a guest at. Instead I went to those in-charge personally and inquired as to what the SOP was. This includes SCFGPA, which I enjoy shooting at on ocaision. No Club is perfect. With all that said, can you PLEASE stop making comments that could be construed to indicate that we are operating either unsafe or are "ripping new Shooters off"? Thank-you in advance.

 

Dave

Old Bridge PPC Chairman

[Smokin .50 1,907]

reading the rules I believe I can shoot a .22. This would be the one I choose and I have a S&W 22a semi auto..

Alec is correct! .22's are fine, with or without an optical (dot) sight, as both sighting systems have separate divisions.

 

I can still put out an email blast (for tonight) for all of our .22 Shooters to bring some extra mags. I think we have some folks who shoot the same gun you do.

 

Hope to see you tonight!

 

Dave

[MrP 81]

Jon,

 

First let me say that I'm glad that there weren't any safety violations.

 

As to the "Rules" that you refer to please note that our League Members appreciate the laid-back format of being able to "make-up" what ever rounds they couldn't get off due to a jam, etc. This in fact is somewhat similar to NRA Bullseye, only we don't take any X's away when scoring. It only takes a few seconds and the R-O gets to concentrate on whether or not to allow that gun to continue in the Match or to suggest a replacement that's fully functional. As an outsider (visitor) on a busy night, perhaps that wasn't clear to you. Our Course of Fire was also customized to include a "strong-hand only" drill of 6 shots with no reload from the 7 yard line in 9 seconds, and then 12 shots in 30 seconds from the 15 yard line. The original COF (in the Rule Book) had us shooting all 18 of the aforementioned shots from all of the way back at 25 yards, utilizing the barricade. By customizing the COF our League participants get more practical experience drawing a loaded sidearm from a holster as well as starting to learn the strong-hand only shooting that is often seen in IDPA, USPSA and other disciplines. This in fact INCREASES the over-all safety at our other Matches as our League Members try-out other disciplines. Since Old Bridge is "member-centric", we listened to our members and the new COF was born. The League has adopted this new COF as SOP. Further, as long as any make-up shots are available to anyone, this is completely fair and practically no different than say an Indoor-Action League Member being allowed to shoot an entire run over again due to a jam, which does happen from time to time.

 

Now we're back to the money issue in your post above. Old Bridge IDPA charges $20.00 for non-members, as directed by the Board of Trustees. SCFGPA does charge only $10, however they don't provide their members with both an outdoor range and an indoor range. Further, they also don't provide the opportunity for their members to shoot at a 10-point 100 yard outdoor range (with Match Director's permission) while the SCFGPA IDPA League is using their indoor range. They also don't provide the opportunity for their members to shoot on a dedicated shotgun range during an IDPA Match (with Match Director's permission). Hell they don't shoot clays there at all! During most Sundays in the Old Bridge R&P Club calendar the entire 12 point indoor range is available for our members for casual shooting, practice and load development. All of this extra opportunity to shoot costs money to keep running. That's why the Board set the rates. As a discipline chairman I have to follow them!

 

To say that PPC is only 15 minutes and other disciplines are longer could be constued as somewhat of a misnomer. Each Relay of PPC takes approx. 45 minutes to shoot & score. Obviously you don't have a gun in your hands that entire time. Actual 60 rounds of lead-pumping clock time is 3:56 for all 5 stages. Most Shooters do at least 2 full Relays, so that's almost 8 full minutes and 120 rounds of lead being pumped! By contrast, Indoor Action (that I LOVE to shoot) has (2) 16-round stages & (2) 18-round stages on most nights. That's 68 rounds, not including any make-ups. Most Shooters shoot most stages in 20 seconds or less, so actual lead-pumping is around 1:20 clock time, and that's if you're both new & slow. Friends of mine do some of these same stages in 5 or 6 seconds! No additional shooting beyond those 80 seconds is available. With both Leagues you're committed for an entire evening. That's the reality of the situation. One League isn't better or worse than the other, just different!

 

As far as a safety check goes, we pay strict attention to new Shooters. We make them watch 1-2 Relays PRIOR to shooting our League so they can see how it's all done, familiarize themselves with Range Commands, take notes, ask questions, etc. Then we make sure that they're mentally prepared to do the Match, as well as having all of the equipment that's needed. We assign one of our "regulars" to keep an eye on the veteran League Members while the R-O concentrates on watching the new folks to make sure that they're safe with their gun handling. Since there is extremely limited movement (no USPSA-style runnin' & gunnin') involved in our discipline, we concentrate on teaching new Shooters how to sit and lay prone during the COF so no one gets muzzle-swept. Obviously our techniques work, since you saw no safety violations during your visit with us and we rarely have to DQ anyone!

 

Please take a minute to digest what I've written. It wasn't written with any "attitude". Forums are a great source of information, even if they're somewhat one-sided with limited perspective. They're also a PITA! Some Forums seem to have a zest for overly zealous opinions, as the FACTS fall by the wayside. As veteran Shooters we should always portray our sport in a good light. In my 40+ years of shooting I've NEVER written contoversial remarks about anything I've seen or heard take place at ANY gun club that I'm either a member of or was a guest at. Instead I went to those in-charge personally and inquired as to what the SOP was. This includes SCFGPA, which I enjoy shooting at on ocaision. No Club is perfect. With all that said, can you PLEASE stop making comments that could be construed to indicate that we are operating either unsafe or are "ripping new Shooters off"? Thank-you in advance.

 

Dave

Old Bridge PPC Chairman

 

You've moved from defending the way a shooting disicipline is run at your club, to criticizing other clubs facilities unrelated to that discipline.

 

On a lighter note, SCFGPA IDPA gives you pizza also!

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Mr. P,

 

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to do that. Please forgive me as that wasn't my intention. I was trying to show WHY the Old Bridge Board set the rates as it has. And the differences in the two Clubs other than the $10.00 League fee for the IDPA Match that keeps getting brought up in these posts and the emails that nobody else is privy to. So please take it with a grain of salt, as NO harm was intended! Just trying to compare apples-to-apples expense-wise for the two Clubs. Although the two disciplines are somewhat unrelated, they do have some commonalities, such as the exclusive use of an indoor range facility where you're drawing a loaded sidearm from a holster.

 

On the same light note, my friend Tom runs a nice show and the pizza he gets tastes GREAT! I've been there and the comaraderie is great too, especially with everyone huddled around that nice wood-burning stove this time of year! As a non-member that wishes to support your fine organization, I'd like to see the Match fees for non-members raised (or donations accepted) to help offset some expenses and to further encourage IDPA League participants to join your Club. As of right now there isn't any monetary incentive to join and the free pizza still tastes great!

 

Continued success to you sir and to SCFGPA!

 

Cordially,

 

Dave

[StanBo 1]

reading the rules I believe I can shoot a .22. This would be the one I choose and I have a S&W 22a semi auto..

 

Frank N Terry you are more than welcome to borrow a magazine from me if it helps. I have 5 for my 22A. I should have more by next month.

 

I had a great time tonight. Just got in a little while ago. I was in relays 7,8 and 10.

 

I can say that hanging out is a great. It was my second time there now and I have more than a few people to shoot the **** with and go out for dinner.

 

I was happy with my .22 scores but need to shoot more 9mm. I might put some paperwork in to get the M&P in .22 so I can get used to that grip again.

 

Can't wait for next month!

 

-Stanley

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Glad you had a good time Stan! It's always a pleasure to shoot with you. And THANKS for stepping-up and helping with the clean-up! Without members like you (that care) we couldn't have the League that we do.

 

Dave

[NickC 23]

What a great crowd last night! It's was real nice to meeting all the new people.

Counted about 7 forum members & Mike's chic Cheryl came through with some kick a** cookies & homemade chocolate.

 

Oh and Maks, if you read this, Rosey wants a NJGF t-shirt

[M4BGRINGO 139]

You guys gotta teach me the secret to hitting the little guy from 25 yards. Maybe I should shoot that one first, then shoot the big guy from 25 yards.....

[NickC 23]

You guys gotta teach me the secret to hitting the little guy from 25 yards. Maybe I should shoot that one first, then shoot the big guy from 25 yards.....

 

Don't feel bad. I got schooled by the 12yo that came with his dad.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

For anyone that's interested, the PPC Scores from Friday's Match (01-13-12) are done and the XL Spreadsheet is ready to transmit. It took a while since we had 10 full relays! So if you're not already on my email list for the PPC League, please give me a PM with your email and I'll be sure to add all of you to the list.

 

Once again it was my sincere pleasure to run this again as your Match Director/Discipline Chairman.

 

Cordially,

 

Dave

[M4BGRINGO 139]

Dave, I plan on hitting the range sometime this week with the wife and a spotting scope. I really want to see why I have so much darn trouble at 25 yards, it is pitiful. I was shooting single action and taking my time, so was the wife, we did terrible. I was worse than terrible...............

[Smokin .50 1,907]

Mike,

 

Let me know when you're going to be there and I can sell you (for cost, just pennies) some B-34 Little Guy targets for the 25 yard Stage. Or you can pick them up at some club meetings when Frank Z. is selling the targets on that table in the front corner of the room.

 

As to technique, I can watch what you're doing and offer some advice, if you want my help. Mostly it all boils down to trigger control and breathing, especially prone on your belly. If I forget and breathe at the wrong times, my shots go astray. Can also work with you two on the barricade position. And proper use of the clock, not rushing your shots. For now, try (with an UNLOADED gun of course) sitting on your couch and using your gun in the weak hand, cocking the hammer, sight alignment, breathing, etc. Get more used to using your weak hand and the pointer of the weak hand. Develop some muscle memory and your scores will go up drastically.

 

Any way I can help I will. I want you to have the best time that you can, so let me know when you're thinking about being there and I'll try to meet you.

 

Dave