How would you have reacted?

[bulpup 98]

So at worst you're in violation of some fish and game statute.

 

which results in loss of all hunting privledges and a fine...from a state agency enforcing state laws.

[Jon 264]

which results in loss of all hunting privledges and a fine...from a state agency enforcing state laws.

 

So we're in agreement that a range is an exempted location, regardless of what weapons it allows.

[bulpup 98]

we are in agreement that it is trouble with the bottom limit being Fish and Wildlife regulations. The rest is up to interpretation and I believe in this case, foolhardy to dance with.

[Jon 264]

we are in agreement that it is trouble with the bottom limit being Fish and Wildlife regulations. The rest is up to interpretation and I believe in this case, foolhardy to dance with.

 

Get into an MVA on your way to a state WMA with a pistol in the car. Will you be in trouble for having it or not? I don't understand how something that is so black and white is in your opinion up to interpretation.

[Ian S 22]

 

 

So we're in agreement that a range is an exempted location, regardless of what weapons it allows.

 

No, don't paraphrase the law and argue based on that. The exception does not give an allowance for the handgun at any range. The New Jersey Code of Criminal Justice, Title 2C:39-6 section f, gives the exemption for transport of firearms to a range for the purpose of practice, but the firearm is to be suitable for the purpose. If it can't be used at the range, then it is not suitable.

[vjf915 456]

I have to agree with bulpup. I'm not saying I think that one WOULD be charged given how the law is phrased. However, when you can't use the pistol at the WMA, why risk bringing it? You have nothing to gain, and potentially quite a bit to lose. We've all seen the ridiculousness that NJ laws brings upon gun owners.

[greatgunstatenj 32]

Harry, he was simply stating what was allowed at the WMA in response to the other poster's question about rimfire rifles.

 

Correct, I was just answering LugNutZ's question.

[bulpup 98]

Get into an MVA on your way to a state WMA with a pistol in the car. Will you be in trouble for having it or not? I don't understand how something that is so black and white is in your opinion up to interpretation.

 

That wasn't the OP's situation. He was at a WMA range and a person took the pistol out of his car and was displaying it. The handgun is prohibited at WMA ranges and within WMA's themselves.

 

This isn't like the mythical "I stopped for lunch on the way home from the range and got arrested," the guy was displaying a handgun at a range that prohibits its use.

 

His hunting license is at risk, his friends hunting licenses are at risk, thay all risk a fine - and that is the starting point. Anything that has a baseline of "you are in trouble with the law," is a bad place to be. Even if it isn't the NJ transportation law.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

It's a listed range period, a range is a range is a range. Adding rules that don't exist is a problem, now I understand to err on the side of caution but this is not even close to that.

 

(null)

[Ian S 22]

It's a listed range period, a range is a range is a range. Adding rules that don't exist is a problem, now I understand to err on the side of caution but this is not even close to that. (null)

I understand the need to not add more rules, but we can't boil down the actual existing rules until they're thrown out altogether. The rules allowing transport to a range are actually more detailed than just "it's ok to travel to and from a range".

From 2C:39-6

f.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent:

 

(1)A member of any rifle or pistol club organized in accordance with the rules prescribed by the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice, in going to or from a place of target practice, carrying such firearms as are necessary for said target practice, provided that the club has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits a list of its members to the superintendent and provided further that the firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section;

 

(2)A person carrying a firearm or knife in the woods or fields or upon the waters of this State for the purpose of hunting, target practice or fishing, provided that the firearm or knife is legal and appropriate for hunting or fishing purposes in this State and he has in his possession a valid hunting license, or, with respect to fresh water fishing, a valid fishing license;

 

(3)A person transporting any firearm or knife while traveling:

 

(a)Directly to or from any place for the purpose of hunting or fishing, provided the person has in his possession a valid hunting or fishing license; or

 

(b)Directly to or from any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions, provided in all cases that during the course of the travel all firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section and the person has complied with all the provisions and requirements of Title 23 of the Revised Statutes and any amendments thereto and all rules and regulations promulgated thereunder; or

 

©In the case of a firearm, directly to or from any exhibition or display of firearms which is sponsored by any law enforcement agency, any rifle or pistol club, or any firearms collectors club, for the purpose of displaying the firearms to the public or to the members of the organization or club, provided, however, that not less than 30 days prior to the exhibition or display, notice of the exhibition or display shall be given to the Superintendent of the State Police by the sponsoring organization or club, and the sponsor has complied with such reasonable safety regulations as the superintendent may promulgate. Any firearms transported pursuant to this section shall be transported in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section;

 

Exemption 3 by itself may seem to allow transport to and from a range, but if the firearm is not allowed under 1 and 2, then you shouldn't talk yourself into believing that 3 allows it.

 

(Edited for better formatting)

[rdsmith3 19]

That wasn't the OP's situation. He was at a WMA range and a person took the pistol out of his car and was displaying it. The handgun is prohibited at WMA ranges and within WMA's themselves.

 

This isn't like the mythical "I stopped for lunch on the way home from the range and got arrested," the guy was displaying a handgun at a range that prohibits its use.

 

His hunting license is at risk, his friends hunting licenses are at risk, thay all risk a fine - and that is the starting point. Anything that has a baseline of "you are in trouble with the law," is a bad place to be. Even if it isn't the NJ transportation law.

 

Also, if one did get a Fish & Wildlife fine for violating their regs, is that something that would show up in a background check and jeopardize future PP applications?

 

I agree with those who think it is prudent to not even risk anything -- don't bring a handgun to a WMA.

[Parker 213]

New Jersey's WMA's were first and foremost designed as "multi-use areas," managed by the New Jersey Division of Fish & Wildlife's Bureau of Land Management, with specific guidelines for their use. They were WMA's first before some added a range to accommodate training & practice locations as there were so few places like that in New Jersey. The purpose was also to prevent "impromptu" range sessions on any state land. Handguns and centerfire rifles are not allowed for hunting or target shooting on any WMA, nor can you have a centerfire rifle or handgun in your possession on a WMA.

 

Next time, call a State C.O. Their number is printed right on the back of your hunting license.

 

If I'm not mistaken, some WMA ranges have closed in the last few years because of misuse. Sad that some people ruin things for everyone. A group from NJH conducted a clean-up of the Collier's Mills range this past Sunday, which was a nice gesture.

[bulpup 98]

I understand the need to not add more rules, but we can't boil down the actual existing rules until they're thrown out altogether. The rules allowing transport to a range are actually more detailed than just "it's ok to travel to and from a range".

 

From 2C:39-6

 

[...]

 

((b)Directly to or from any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions, provided in all cases that during the course of the travel all firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section and the person has complied with all the provisions and requirements of Title 23 of the Revised Statutes and any amendments thereto and all rules and regulations promulgated thereunder; or

 

^^This

 

If you can't shoot it there, what is the purpose? Seems to me it is cleary illegal.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

I personally wouldn't have said anything. Not my gun, not my property and wasn't causing me a threat.= not my business

[PK90 3,573]

I personally wouldn't have said anything. Not my gun, not my property and wasn't causing me a threat.= not my business

 

+1

[Soju 153]

The fact that this is being debated should tell you enough about NJ gun laws to realize at least one thing. Right or wrong, don't get caught..

[this_is_nascar 162]

Somewhat related...... I've heard that you must be a licensed hunter or with a license hunter to shoot in any of NJ's WMA's that allow shooting. Is that the case?

[bulpup 98]

Somewhat related...... I've heard that you must be a licensed hunter or with a license hunter to shoot in any of NJ's WMA's that allow shooting. Is that the case?

 

yep

[Babaganoosh 192]

There are ranges in NJ that prohibit certain types of rounds being fired. The 5.7x 28 round is one of them. Doesn't mean that you can't have your FN 5.7 at the range though. You just can't fire it.

 

I would think the same applies for a WMA but who knows.

[Ian S 22]

 

 

+1

I really want to agree with both of you. But it seems like the stories of consequences for ignorance of the law are so common that they are just fodder for short lived forum threads. Remember Meredith Graves? Here:

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/30408-tennessee-tourist-arrested-for-bringing-pistol-into-911-memorial/

 

Now what would you do if you were standing in line at the 9/11 memorial and heard a nice southern woman say "Oh, that sign says we can't bring our civilian self-defense weapon in. Let's go see if we can check it in." Would you try to tell her that won't turn out well? Or would you grab some popcorn? Even knowing how it turns out?

 

Especially if it is a friend of a friend, I'd feel obligated to give him the same heads up that the OP did, or I'd feel guilty of doing nothing to stop the guaranteed train wreck.

[Shawnmoore81 623]

Way different scenario. One is going to absolutely end in an arrest. One probably would have not even been a blip on the radar but made you out to look like buzz killington. I see "evil" guns at the range all the time, I got buddy's with stuff that I'm sure would be frowned on but that's their choice. I hate the state telling people what they can and can't have so I sure as hell aren't going to wave my finger at someone and tell them to put that away. They are adults, they know the laws. If they feel that's what they want or want to do that's on them. As long as it doesn't effect me or cause a threat I won't even bat an eye.

[bulpup 98]

There are ranges in NJ that prohibit certain types of rounds being fired. The 5.7x 28 round is one of them. Doesn't mean that you can't have your FN 5.7 at the range though. You just can't fire it.

 

I would think the same applies for a WMA but who knows.

I was told at my hunter education course that you could possibly lose all hunting privledges for some number of years for having buckshot mixed in with your birdshot outside of deer season.

While hunting of course on a WMA of course.

 

I have no idea how often it happens though.

[Parker 213]

[quote name=bulpup' timestamp='1326

195759' post='405953]

I was told at my hunter education course that you could possibly lose all hunting privledges for some number of years for having buckshot mixed in with your birdshot outside of deer season.

While hunting of course on a WMA of course.

 

I have no idea how often it happens though.

The example you cite reminds me of CO's checking and squeezing the shells in my hunting coat to check for buckshot or slugs when I grouse hunted in Ringwood. The CO's would drive those trails and logging roads back in the 70's.

 

Hunting regs. read carry and possession of only legal ammunition for the game intended. (I.E. you can't be in possession of buckshot while bear hunting.) Applies anywhere, not just on WMA's. You are even restricted to the size of shot in most shotgun training areas. (You can't shoot slugs or buckshot at Black River, largest size shot there is #4 lead or steel "#T." You can hunt with lead shot at Assunpink but you better use steel shot at the practice range or out on the water for ducks.) You cannot be in possession of lead shot while hunting migratory waterfowl. There's a lot to remember.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

 

 

f.Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent:

 

(1)A member of any rifle or pistol club organized in accordance with the rules prescribed by the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice, in going to or from a place of target practice, carrying such firearms as are necessary for said target practice, provided that the club has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits a list of its members to the superintendent and provided further that the firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section;

 

Hypothetical: Say I go to an indoor range, they limit it to handguns (No Magnums) and Rifle 22LR only. I show up with a few handguns in 9mm and .40, have my 22LR rifle with me to shoot, say I also brought a handgun that shoot only Magnums, and say a 30-30 rifle, both of these are not allowed, so by what you are saying, would this also would be a problem???

 

Yea extreme example, but comparable. Also what OP said they were going to a Range to shoot skeet/trap style IIRC, as I understand it it's a listed range, I have never been there, so I don't know, but if it's listed as a range, then it should be an exempted location.

[Babaganoosh 192]

 

I was told at my hunter education course that you could possibly lose all hunting privledges for some number of years for having buckshot mixed in with your birdshot outside of deer season.

While hunting of course on a WMA of course.

 

I have no idea how often it happens though.

 

We aren't talking about hunting though, we are talking about simply being at the range.

[bulpup 98]

We aren't talking about hunting though, we are talking about simply being at the range.

 

You had said, "I would think the same applies for a WMA but who knows."

 

WMA's have quite a bit of regulations, which are laws. And hunter's have to "know," them and in fact have to take a class and pass a test before they can use the facilities.

[Ian S 22]

Hypothetical: Say I go to an indoor range, they limit it to handguns (No Magnums) and Rifle 22LR only. I show up with a few handguns in 9mm and .40, have my 22LR rifle with me to shoot, say I also brought a handgun that shoot only Magnums, and say a 30-30 rifle, both of these are not allowed, so by what you are saying, would this also would be a problem???

 

Yea extreme example, but comparable. Also what OP said they were going to a Range to shoot skeet/trap style IIRC, as I understand it it's a listed range, I have never been there, so I don't know, but if it's listed as a range, then it should be an exempted location.

From 2C:39-5. Unlawful possession of weapons.

 

b.Handguns. Any person who knowingly has in his possession any handgun, including any antique handgun, without first having obtained a permit to carry the same as provided in N.J.S.2C:58-4, is guilty of a crime of the third degree if the handgun is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person. Otherwise it is a crime of the second degree.

 

c.Rifles and shotguns. (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

 

(2)Unless otherwise permitted by law, any person who knowingly has in his possession any loaded rifle or shotgun is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

 

Hypothetically, if you keep the rifle unloaded and you have your FPID, you'll be fine. If you cannot use the handgun at the range, and you have not obtained a permit to carry, then you are illegally carrying a handgun. A crime of the 2nd degree can get you 5 years in prison and the felony (crime) will forfeit your right to own firearms.

 

If you find yourself in the situation you described, you should do everything you can to get yourself legal again. Bring the handgun home or continue on to a range that allows it and have fun.

 

Noone on this site has said that NJ gun laws are logical, fair or in keeping with the spirit of the 2A. Read the statutes. Respect the law. Push for change. Write your legislators. Run for office yourself. But not knowing the current law, or expecting that the law is just as you think it should be, will get you jammed up. Being found guilty, or just arrested, is not only inconvenient for you, it threatens my rights because every headline of some poor sap that got caught is more food for the anti-gun campaigns in this State.

[bulpup 98]

Hypothetical: Say I go to an indoor range, they limit it to handguns (No Magnums) and Rifle 22LR only. I show up with a few handguns in 9mm and .40, have my 22LR rifle with me to shoot, say I also brought a handgun that shoot only Magnums, and say a 30-30 rifle, both of these are not allowed, so by what you are saying, would this also would be a problem???

 

Yea extreme example, but comparable. Also what OP said they were going to a Range to shoot skeet/trap style IIRC, as I understand it it's a listed range, I have never been there, so I don't know, but if it's listed as a range, then it should be an exempted location.

 

In your example I would be comfortable simply leaving them cased. In my mind there is a mental threshold, and your example falls on the "mythical get arrested eating lunch on the way home situation," in my mind.

 

But the OP's situation is on the opposite side of that threshold IMHO. Because no pistols can be used at the range at all, the ranges have officers empowered to take legal action resulting in a fine or loss of state hunting privledges and they are hired to search for offenders on their land and, because as a licensed hunter using the range, you were taught where to check for the rules (which are laws) and ignorance of the law is no excuse.

 

Nothing I have been saying should be construed as me believing your points and others are not correct in most situations, but I do believe the exact particulars of the OP's scenario are prehaps the one and only circumstance that should make people take pause.

[Parker 213]

All salient points, but when you step foot on a WMA, you should abide by the laws as they read in the F&W Digest.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

All I am saying, for Ian, bulpup. Say I was at a range shooting my guns at lets say RTSP, I meet some friends and they said lets go shoot Clays, I also have my shotgun with me. Now I leave RTSP, and not I go with them, we are all in separate vehicles with out own guns and we go to this range. I have no intension to shoot my or carry my handguns, I leave them cased as I transport them as I should while in the PR of NJ. We spend the afternoon shooting clays, I pack up my shotty and head directly home. I also have not fired any firearms that are not allowed at any of the ranges.

 

Now I have gone from home to Range # 1, to Range # 2 and Home, what laws have I broken??

 

Maybe I am not understanding how this range the OP being it on;y allows Skeet/Trap I think they said and apparently hunting, it's still a listed range, correct??