First time NJ gun purchaser questions

[jonfoxx 4]

I've tried to read as much information as possible regarding the NJ gun laws, but I guess I'm in information overload mode and still having a hard time grasping some questions in my mind... So I hope some of you can help me out here.

 

The main thing I'm having trouble with pertains to this...

With a FID, what can I buy and where? Specifically, what can I legally buy online and have shipped to me? What has to be shipped to a NJ dealer?

 

Also, what can I buy at an out of state gun show (such as PA) and transport back to NJ? Do the vendors at these shows have the ability to run background checks? Do the guns need to be shipped to a dealer in NJ?

 

If my wife and I purchase separate guns (handguns and rifles), can I legally take hers to the range with me if she's not with me?

If I were to get pulled over on the way to or from the range, do I need to show proof of ownship for each gun, or just a FID?

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

With an FPID you can:

Purchase long guns from an FFL in-state or out of state (need COE also)

Purchase long guns FTF from another NJ resident (also need a COE)

Purchase handgun ammunition

Purchase long guns from a non-NJ resident through an FFL in either the seller's or buyer's state of residence

 

You can have nothing shipped directly to you.

 

You need a P2P to purchase a handgun from an FFL or privately from a NJ resident

You can purchase handguns out of state, in person, via Internet or otherwise, but they must be shipped to a NJ FFL where you will need a P2P to take possession of them.

You can also purchase handgun ammo with a P2P, but good luck finding a vendor who knows this.

 

Yes, FFL dealers at gun shows have the ability to run background checks

 

No you cannot use your wife's firearms without her being present

 

The P in FPID is for "Purchaser". If you are traveling with long guns or handguns within the exemptions granted, you do not need to have your FPID with you. If you travel outside the exemptions with long guns (their is no provision for traveling outside the exemptions with hand guns) then you must possess an FPID. That being said, not a bad idea to always have it with you - at the least, it shows you were not a prohibited person at time of issue.

 

Proof of ownership should not be necessary unless it is more than just a traffic stop.

 

HTH

 

Adios,

 

PIzza Bob

[M1152 713]

I guess Bob summed it up. As far as getting pulled over you would think the FID card is enough but I have a binder with copies of ALL my receipts and NJSP forms in addition to the FID card so there is NO question about ownership and at the same time that provides proof the firearms were legally purchased in NJ. Is that required, maybe not but this is NJ and CYA is not a bad thing.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

I guess Bob summed it up. As far as getting pulled over you would think the FID card is enough but I have a binder with copies of ALL my receipts and NJSP forms in addition to the FID card so there is NO question about ownership and at the same time that provides proof the firearms were legally purchased in NJ. Is that required, maybe not but this is NJ and CYA is not a bad thing.

 

I agree that avoiding problems is best, but to do things that are not even close to any law you need to comply with is going overboard. What do would you do if you had a gun from another state that you didn't have to use a P2P for or rifle where you didn't need to fill out a COE??

 

To add, if you're in a situation that calls for you to produce these documents, you're in a heck of a lot of trouble already..

[M4BGRINGO 139]

From time to time I will take one of my wifes handguns to a range with me, and she isn't present. I don't know how legit that is, after-all, I paid for them anyway................ If an LEO was to call-in and check I guess they should be able to see I have 7 handguns registered to me and she has 3. If they tried to cause me trouble for having a few of mine with me and one of hers without her being present, that would be pretty rediculous.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

From time to time. I don't know how legit that is, after-all, I paid for them anyway................ If an LEO was to call-in and check I guess they should be able to see I have 7 handguns registered to me and she has 3. If they tried to cause me trouble for having a few of mine with me and one of hers without her being present, that would be pretty rediculous.

 

I removed what you shouldn't post in a public forum and suggest you make an edit to the post, being it is considered and illegal transfer and the chances of every having a problem is a 100000 to 1, it's not worth risking all your guns.. Also if you like I'll remove all of my post if you like also.

[kenw 293]

From time to time I will take one of my wifes handguns to a range with me, and she isn't present. I don't know how legit that is, after-all, I paid for them anyway................ If an LEO was to call-in and check I guess they should be able to see I have 7 handguns registered to me and she has 3. If they tried to cause me trouble for having a few of mine with me and one of hers without her being present, that would be pretty rediculous.

This is NJ, and that's an illegal transfer. Doesn't make sense, but it is what it is.

[deni 16]

Why quote him?

[oldboy 1]

My 23 year old son and I shoot clays together quite a bit. However there are times when I can't go for one reason or another, but he wants to. So I guess I should just right up a bunch of COE's and turn them over to him. I've always wondered about this.

[Luke_WO 11]

My 23 year old son and I shoot clays together quite a bit. However there are times when I can't go for one reason or another, but he wants to. So I guess I should just right up a bunch of COE's and turn them over to him. I've always wondered about this.

 

Wow, never thought of that. 100% legal? Would solve the problem of wanting to shoot someone else's gun as long as you both have FID's...

[Luke_WO 11]

But what I'm asking is if you could do this unlimited times. Could my father transfer his gun to me so i can take it with me to the range, and then I transfer it back to him as soon as I get home?

[mipafox 438]

Why quote him?

 

It's called "Buddy-F*cking." There are many reasons for it, all of them selfish.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

It's called "Buddy-F*cking." There are many reasons for it, all of them selfish.

 

Was that for me or Ken or both of us??

[Underdog 1,593]

Even with a COE, you would need a pistol permit for handguns. Some of us always have some on hand, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to have extra valid ones.

[mipafox 438]

 

 

Was that for me or Ken or both of us??

 

Neither of you. I was responding to a question about a real peeve of mine.

[Dan 177]

Private COE-FID transfers you can do ulimited times for long guns AFAIK. The paperwork stays with each party , and the state doesn't get a copy. PP's on the other hand, big brother gets a copy of each, and the receiver can only have one processed once per month according to OGAM.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Neither of you. I was responding to a question about a real peeve of mine.

 

Ok, sometimes it's hard to follow who commenting to what.

[M1152 713]

I agree that avoiding problems is best, but to do things that are not even close to any law you need to comply with is going overboard. What do would you do if you had a gun from another state that you didn't have to use a P2P for or rifle where you didn't need to fill out a COE??

 

To add, if you're in a situation that calls for you to produce these documents, you're in a heck of a lot of trouble already..

I should have been more specific, I’ve omitted P2P comments because those circumstances don’t apply to me. My reply was with regards how I travel To & From the range. Again, I should have specified that.

 

As far as out of state P2P buys I haven’t done one yet. That’s doesn’t mean I’ll never do one, it just means in the last 35 years of going round and round and off & on with this hobby I haven’t done one yet so you could save your P2P concerns for the OP. If you think carrying the extra paperwork is over-the-top or foolish I can’t do anything about that. I’ve had my FID card since 70’s and sometime shortly after getting my first handgun it was suggested that I carry the extra copies and have been doing it ever since. I don't have a problem with it.

 

Personally I wouldn’t buy anything from an anonymous patron just walking about in a gun show. If you and/or the OP want to buy firearms from anonymous folks walking about in PA gun shows from people you will likely never see again, go for it. I purchased a Shotgun a few years ago at the Valley Forge GS from an established vendor and it was written up just like I purchased it at the local Sporting Goods store here in NJ. Would I have purchased something similar (and used) and from an anonymous gun show attendee, absolutely not but that's my call...

[johnott 5]

No you cannot use your wife's firearms without her being present

 

PIzza Bob

 

So in your opinion, does that mean you can't have it in your possession or that you can't use it, or both?

A hypothetical situation... My wife and I are coming home from the range, we both have our own handguns in the trunk. My wife's mother lives on the same road that the range is on ( you have to drive by it to get to the range). My wife wants me to pull over and drop her off at her mother's as opposed to driving home first (which would be a 16 mile round trip). I continue home with our handguns in the trunk, but she is no longer present. OR what if my wife was at her mother's and says she'll meet me at the range and to bring her handgun so we can go shooting?

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

johnott:

 

That's a hypothetical that if it becomes reality, you have bigger things to worry about. But, yes, technically, you could be charged. It's situations like that where LE discretionary action is a good thing.

 

IANAL

 

Adios,

 

PIzza Bob

[M4BGRINGO 139]

Wow, that is just rediculous. So now I have to see which P2P's go with which guns to figure-out which handguns are technically my wifes and which are mine? Maybe I should just burn some permits and put ALL the handguns in my name. She doesn't go anywhere to shoot them without me, but I certainly go plenty of times and shoot without her. This state and some of these laws are beyond f-ing rediculous!

 

No Harry, don't worry about the quote, screw this state. Prove what I did wrong and when I did it, they can't.

[johnott 5]

Thanks for your input Pizza Bob.

 

NJ drives me batty with their firearms restrictions.

 

I'm a conscientiousness person, I want to follow the rules, I don't want any trouble... I try my best to understand the laws that exist in our state. I've read through the laws in Title 2C:39. Some things I think I understand whereas others I don't. So I read through the forums and gather other web related info to try and educate myself. I may read a post where someone makes a good argument for a certain interpretation of the law. Sounds good, logical, and reasonable, so I adopt that view too. But on a later date I read a good dissenting view and am persuaded to lean the other way... and back and forth I go. Then to top it off it doesn't matter what view I take because (right or wrong) it ultimately depends on the view of the LEO, local DA or Judge. So I am then forced into one of two decisions, 1. believe what I want and in my own interpretation of the law or 2. play it safe and adopt a view that holds the most restrictive interpretation of the law so that I'm sure I am within it's limits.

 

Some people advocate talking to a lawyer, but there seems to be just as many differing opinions among lawyers as there are among the rest of us. If I knew that the law would follow a common sense approach that involves considering all that a reasonable person would do, I would feel more at ease. But nothing I've read makes me feel confident that NJ will give me that benefit should the need arise.

 

I've never been stopped and searched by an LEO in my entire life and see no reason why I ever would be, but the fact that I could be violating the law unintentionally and then incur serious jail time because of it, frankly it bothers me. Laws that are so poorly written, that make little exception for the average citizen. Laws like that are not merely written against firearms, they are written against the people of this state. Do we as people deserve so little respect and trust that in order to protect us from ourselves we need to be watched and restricted at every turn? The political engine of this state must think that we have no common sense whatsoever. I hope that someday (in my lifetime) NJ will give more credit and respect to it's citizens that legally own and use firearms and along with that it will adopt a more friendly and reasonable firearms policy. /rant over/

[keithco88 3]

My understanding of what was relayed to me recently at an NRA training course (with the instructor repeatedly saying "I am not a lawyer and will not defend you in court") is that having a handgun in NJ is illegal UNLESS you have an FID card. However with that FID card you're fine with any handgun that meets the requirements of the state (capacity, etc) as ok. The permit is only to PURCHASE the handgun. As by-the-book there is no firearm registry in the state of NJ they have no way of completely determining that the handgun in your possession is yours or your wife's or your friend's so it shouldn't be an issue. He did mention cases of an officer searching a vehicle asking for the consumer copy of the purchase permit and running them in if they didn't match, however mentioned that it's not grounds for conviction since if it were it would amount to handgun registration which is illegal in NJ. Did I completely misunderstand my instructor's interpretation of the law?

 

In any case, don't draw the attention of any cops and you SHOULD be fine; but if you want to be safe yeah prob best to get everything in your name so as not to piss off the cops and put it in the hands of slimeball lawyers.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

I should have been more specific, I’ve omitted P2P comments because those circumstances don’t apply to me. My reply was with regards how I travel To & From the range. Again, I should have specified that.

 

As far as out of state P2P buys I haven’t done one yet. That’s doesn’t mean I’ll never do one, it just means in the last 35 years of going round and round and off & on with this hobby I haven’t done one yet so you could save your P2P concerns for the OP. If you think carrying the extra paperwork is over-the-top or foolish I can’t do anything about that. I’ve had my FID card since 70’s and sometime shortly after getting my first handgun it was suggested that I carry the extra copies and have been doing it ever since. I don't have a problem with it.

 

Personally I wouldn’t buy anything from an anonymous patron just walking about in a gun show. If you and/or the OP want to buy firearms from anonymous folks walking about in PA gun shows from people you will likely never see again, go for it. I purchased a Shotgun a few years ago at the Valley Forge GS from an established vendor and it was written up just like I purchased it at the local Sporting Goods store here in NJ. Would I have purchased something similar (and used) and from an anonymous gun show attendee, absolutely not but that's my call...

 

Whats with the Anonymous buying comment. Who every said anything like that, and are you implying that would be somehow against the law when 2 people are both from the same state and neither prohibited? My comment was guns purchased while living in another state that is free and doesn't have the BS laws we have here. Heck when I was out in AZ I could just walk in and by a gun, guess what, didn't need a FID FPID P2P, a Drivers License was all you needed. If you live in other states and there is a F2F gun buy do they need a COE a P2P or something else, not sure about the rules in all the states but you can have firearm that are not documented in computer systems. Heck a long gun purchased here and you did a F2F and lost your paperwork in lets say while moving. What would you do, not use the gun, not transport it any longer?

 

All I am saying and I am not faulting you at all, I guess it just the way this state treats law abiding gun owners that make some of them this way, but I just can't see going the extra step conforming to a law that does not exist.

 

We need to as a group stop this in general, we have enough BS laws let alone making up new rules, when is enough enough.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

My understanding of what was relayed to me recently at an NRA training course (with the instructor repeatedly saying "I am not a lawyer and will not defend you in court") is that having a handgun in NJ is illegal UNLESS you have an FID card. However with that FID card you're fine with any handgun that meets the requirements of the state (capacity, etc) as ok. The permit is only to PURCHASE the handgun.

 

Pretty simple....the instructor was dead wrong. You do not even need an FPID to purchase a handgun. FPID are for:

1) Purchasing a long arm

2) Purchasing handgun ammunition

3) Traveling with a long arm outside the granted exemptions

 

That is it, period. Not a bad idea to have one because it does show that you were not a prohibited person at the time of issuance.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[kenw 293]

NJ law doesn't require you to present any sort of proof of ownership on demand. Carrying a binder of P2P copies is pretty much meaningless. You can be in legal possession of a gun purchased legally in another state while you were a resident there, and have no paper trail at all.

 

NJ is primarily concerned with 3 things...

that the gun (and any accessories) in question is legal to possess in NJ, and

that the gun in question is being transported legally, and

that you are not prohibited from owning a gun in NJ

 

All of those criteria must be met. If either is not, then having a valid FID card isn't going to help you. You will be well and verily fooked.

 

However, if the handguns in your possession should be called in, and if the results show that the gun was legally purchased in NJ by someone else, you are in possession of a firearm that came to you through an illegal transfer, and you are therefore transporting it illegally.

 

Convenient how that works out, isn't it.?

[keithco88 3]

Thanks Pizza Bob...I'll try to get a 3rd opinion from my local PD and notify people. FYI the class where I heard the quote from my post above was at Heritage Guild in Easton. I really liked the class and found it very informative, and I'm pretty sure Matt is an NRA certified instructor, but the laws seem to be intentionally vague so I'm betting unless ppl have actual experience there's some room for interpretation and he may have been giving us the maximal CYA perspective.

 

kenw - interesting point at the end there. So if I buy at a gun show in PA and do whatever legal transfer is req'd, but the guy at the show actually didn't "OWN" it to transfer it then I'm breaking the law? Doesn't that amount to handgun registration?

 

Am I the only one who was under the impression that the gov't isn't supposed to have a person to firearm registry? Am I totally missing the boat?

[kenw 293]

Thanks Pizza Bob...I'll try to get a 3rd opinion from my local PD and notify people. FYI the class where I heard the quote from my post above was at Heritage Guild in Easton. I really liked the class and found it very informative, and I'm pretty sure Matt is an NRA certified instructor, but the laws seem to be intentionally vague so I'm betting unless ppl have actual experience there's some room for interpretation and he may have been giving us the maximal CYA perspective.

 

kenw - interesting point at the end there. So if I buy at a gun show in PA and do whatever legal transfer is req'd, but the guy at the show actually didn't "OWN" it to transfer it then I'm breaking the law? Doesn't that amount to handgun registration?

 

Am I the only one who was under the impression that the gov't isn't supposed to have a person to firearm registry? Am I totally missing the boat?

 

I'm confused by your question. If you buy a handgun out of state, it must be transferred to you through a NJ FFL, who will complete the transfer under NJ laws. At that point, you have fulfilled your obligation under NJ law. I'm not sure that there's any relevance if the guy you bought it from wasn't the legal owner.

 

And yes, the P2P system is a de facto gun registration database for handguns transferred in NJ, but not applicable to guns brought in legally by residents of other states when they relocate to NJ.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Thanks Pizza Bob...I'll try to get a 3rd opinion from my local PD and notify people.

 

Not to be disrespectful to the LEO's on the board, but the police are the last ones you should ask for a legal opinion. Contrary to what you say, there is no gray area or "wiggle room" in the law when it comes to the purpose of the FPID - it is as stated in my previous post.

 

In your example, you couldn't go to an out of state gun show and purchase a handgun without having it shipped to a NJ FFL and taking delivery of it here with a P2P. Long arms purchases out of state are another matter. They must satisfy the laws of both states and must be done through an FFL in either the seller's or buyer's state of residence. But nothing is sent to the government of either state.

 

Any gun "registry" in NJ is incomplete since firearms purchased legally in another state, while a resident of that state, are not required to be registered when moving into NJ. Therefore, the registry cannot be used to determine legal possession, except in the instance that kenw illustrated.

 

HTH

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[keithco88 3]

makes a little more sense...thanks guys