Dum Dum bullets--yes, I know, another HP question

[nj22 2]

So we all know the law as it pertains to HP bullets (or at least we know what the statutes say). There's also this post floating around various message boards (here and others) claiming that the New Jersey State Police Ballistics Unit has declared that certain expanding rounds (like EFMJs) are NOT considered hollow points.

 

However, treating these rounds as FMJ seems dangerous since the NJ laws state both HPs and Dum Dum bullets. According to the text of the newest Aiken HP appeal the judge determined that "dum dum bullets" was not a vague phrase and that any normal person with a dictionary could determine it means any bullet meant to expand on impact. Sooooo does that mean that EFMJs and other filled-in HP rounds should be treated as any other HP?

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

I hadn't read the Aiken decision, but I find it interesting that the judge made that determination. If this sets precedence, then anything but FMJ's and solid cast bullets would be deemed the same as HP's - and in point of fact even they expand. The crux would be that they aren't necessarily designed or meant to expand. A pretty fine point on which to hang your hat.

 

I found an old post I made based on a post I found on the PAFOA forum. This dates to March 13, 2009. IIRC, many people called me to task and said that it was a stretch - yet here we are in 2012 and the judges words echo this same reasoning. Here is the 03/13/2009 post...

 

I think that many of us, myself included, have been laboring under a misconception about hollow-points, EFMJ’s, soft-points, etc. I know that all of the above are legal under the conditions defined in the statute, but the NJ shooter’s fear centers on inadvertently having a prohibited projectile in our possession; i.e. Had some in your pocket at the range and forgot to empty them back into your range bag; Or, Some fell out of your range bag while transporting and rolled under the seat – or any other scenario you can imagine. We seem to think that using EFMJ’s or soft-points or even cast bullets would preclude us from being prosecuted under the conditions described above.

 

While perusing the PAFOA forums, I ran across this interpretation of the NJ “hollow-point statute”. The poster stipulated that this came from a firearm knowledgeable attorney whose opinion was sought when the poster was taking a security job in NJ.

 

While the statute specifically names hollow-points, it also includes “dum-dums” as prohibited ammunition. The statute fails to define dum-dum. Using the current, contemporary definition, it is simply an expanding bullet. Wikipedia defines expanding bullet as…

 

…an expanding bullet is a bullet designed to expand on impact, increasing in diameter to limit penetration and/or produce a larger diameter wound. There are many expanding bullet designs, though the most commonly encountered are the hollow point bullet and the soft point bullet.

 

Thus, technically, you could be charged under the statute for possession of any expanding bullet ammunition possessed outside the strict parameters defined in the statute (from the POP to home, to & from the range, etc.).

 

I would say that using EFMJ’s may be a hedge against any unpleasantness, as most LEO’s would think it was simply FMJ’ed ammo, based on its appearance.

 

Curious to read what you think of the above. Maybe we should lower our sights a bit and push for some kind of ammo reform law. I have no problem with a statute that prohibits the possession of types of ammunition during the commission of a felony, but to make mere possession a crime is one step away from a complete ban. Ammo reform should go hand-in-hand with shall-issue carry laws in this state.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[triplecrown 1]

So we all know the law as it pertains to HP bullets (or at least we know what the statutes say). There's also this post floating around various message boards (here and others) claiming that the New Jersey State Police Ballistics Unit has declared that certain expanding rounds (like EFMJs) are NOT considered hollow points.

 

However, treating these rounds as FMJ seems dangerous since the NJ laws state both HPs and Dum Dum bullets. According to the text of the newest Aiken HP appeal the judge determined that "dum dum bullets" was not a vague phrase and that any normal person with a dictionary could determine it means any bullet meant to expand on impact. Sooooo does that mean that EFMJs and other filled-in HP rounds should be treated as any other HP?

 

This. I remember seeing posted on this forum a certified letter of sorts from the NJSP listing a couple rounds not considered HP. Funny this post came up cause I've been trying to find that post.

[lunker 274]

Looks like it's back to 45ACP for home defence.

[Malsua 1,422]

So if they're going to parse this definition "Dumdum: a bullet (as one with a hollow point) that expands more than usual upon hitting an object ", I can parse it too.

 

What is the definition of usual? If you shoot round nose ammo at a steel plate, then shoot hollow point or efmj at the plate, is the expansion that much different? Is it "more than usual?" Is usual equal to +/- .2 inch? You can nitpick this to death.

 

That said, this is a disturbing ruling, equating HP with any expanding ammo.

[Socom 19]

lethal weapon 2 explains exactly what a dum dum bullet is lol

[nj22 2]

Well sure, Malsua, but my point was more than any round that says on the box "expanding" is going to qualify as a dumdum round and in the eyes of NJ equal to an HP. So whatever the ballistics unit may or may not have said, LEOs from other states carrying EFMJs better be careful.

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Attached is the letter to the NJSP FIU that explains the findings of the AFTE with regard to hollowpoints. I would expect with the Aiken ruling (providing it sets precedence) the finding in this letter to the head of the NJSP FIU is now moot.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

njsp_hollowpoint.pdf

[TheWombat 67]

Isn't this only really relevant if you have a NJ CCW anyway since HPs are legal at home and the range, and it's not as if you'll be carrying a loaded firearm elsewhere in NJ???

 

Or have I misunderstood?

 

TheWombat

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Isn't this only really relevant if you have a NJ CCW anyway since HPs are legal at home and the range, and it's not as if you'll be carrying a loaded firearm elsewhere in NJ???

 

Or have I misunderstood?

 

TheWombat

 

If you went to a match or the range and inadvertently left some HP ammo in your car - you could be prosecuted for transporting outside the exceptions. We all thought that by using soft points, cast, EFMJ's, PowrBalls etc, etc that if a few spilled out in your car, we were safe because they are not considered HP's or DumDums, thus the travel exceptions don't apply. Now we have a judge rule that any bullet that is meant to expand falls under the statute and can only be transported under the exceptions.

 

Adios,

 

Pizza Bob

[Dan 177]

[siderman 1,138]

 

politicians-and judges

[Dan 177]

politicians-and judges

 

Lately the word politician for me encompasses all thress branches of the govt.

[nj22 2]

Wombat--I know a lot of people on forums tell retired LEOs and others visiting the state to swap out EFMJs for their HPs.

 

Also, I think more than a few are concerned about the potential tack-on charge of an HP in any home invasion situation, and therefore opt for the rounds listed in that NJ ballistics memo.

[TheDon 3]

Sorry, I could not resist.

 

[Trunk 4]

Wombat--I know a lot of people on forums tell retired LEOs and others visiting the state to swap out EFMJs for their HPs.

 

Also, I think more than a few are concerned about the potential tack-on charge of an HP in any home invasion situation, and therefore opt for the rounds listed in that NJ ballistics memo.

What kind of tack-on charge?

[deadeye74 5]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't part of the idea behind a hollow point to expand outward and not go through the target? I thought it was supposed to reduce collateral damage by expanding outward instead of forward? If you had someone break in to your home, attack you, and you resorted to shooting them in self defense, isn't there more chance of a FMJ round going through the bad guy and possibly through the wall into another room than with a HP?

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't part of the idea behind a hollow point to expand outward and not go through the target? I thought it was supposed to reduce collateral damage by expanding outward instead of forward? If you had someone break in to your home, attack you, and you resorted to shooting them in self defense, isn't there more chance of a FMJ round going through the bad guy and possibly through the wall into another room than with a HP?

 

See, there you go using logic again. Have you forgotten where you live man?

[TheDon 3]

Am I missing something? HP ammo is allowed in the home, on the range, on hunting grounds, etc.

So why can't I use them to shoot a bad guy breaking into my home?

[Pizza Bob 1,488]

Am I missing something? HP ammo is allowed in the home, on the range, on hunting grounds, etc.

So why can't I use them to shoot a bad guy breaking into my home?

 

There is no prohibition about having hollowpoint ammo in your home. It is perfectly legal to use it in a HD situation.

 

The point of this thread was that, given the judge's ruling in the Aiken case, the types of ammunition that require exceptions has expanded from just hollowpoints to anything "...meant to expand...".

[deadeye74 5]

Sorry for sidetracking the OP. My point is that the hollow point issue in NJ is crazy just as is mag restrictions (which by the way there is a bill in this session to reduce max capacity to 10 reason being it will prevent another "Giffords Scenario") and many others. We already know that, so enough said.

[nj22 2]

Yes, I really only brought this up because, as Pizza Bob posted, there is this letter floating around suggesting "alternatives" to HPs. Why one might need or feel safer with non-HP bullets is up to the individual. Clearly people wanted to know. This ruling suggests expansion, and not hollow pointedness, is of greatest legal significance.