Scenario question

[Duppie 73]

Please read carefully. The fact is neither of my scenarios involved myself or my family. They involved an unrelated neighbor and a police office that I presumably would not know from Adam. Your desire to defend your family is admirable, and I share that desire. I am asking would you risk your family's welfare to defend a stranger?

YES. or else what type of person would I be? a man or a rabbit afraid of it's own shadow...I can't live like that.

[Handyman 5,682]

Maybe we are just coming from different places. Here are my hypothetical life circumstances:

 

Say I am a relatively young attorney, the sole income for my family. I make a good income, but I also accumulated a ton of student debt to get where I am today. If I get convicted of a felony, I will not only go to jail, I will lose my license and be disbarred and thereby be prevented from ever working in my profession again. My best hope after my release from prison is likely a minimum wage job in some offender reentry program. While I am incarcerated, my wife and four kids will have to go on public assistance and sell essentially everything we own to keep from literal starvation. We will likely never own a home. My kids' education will be seriously in question.

 

Still think it is a good idea for me to be a cowboy? If the laws of this state are not really interested in providing me an opportunity to help, I am not super interested in helping.

[Duppie 73]

Monroe Township must be a utopia - how are the real estate prices?

 

I can think of two very affluent Morris County towns where multiple family members have been killed by a deranged family member. These people had neighbors. Cops never have anyone resist arrest? The episodes you see on the "Cops" TV show are the ones that end happily. The others you read about as a line of duty death in the paper.

 

Hypothetical situations are used to consider how a situation might be addressed in a number of settings, including places like law school, medical school and in the military. If you think these are scenarios are outside of the realm of possibility, I hope that will truly be the case in your life.

Monroe is quite nice actually, thanks for asking.

I go through life with my eyes open,fostering a healthy skepticism and try to help when I can,I don't however hobble myself with paralyzing fear hiding in my well equipped and armed basement listening for non existent neighbor's screams or faceless armed intruders,calculating possible income losses while not acknowledging the inevitable loss of my humanity or manhood if those screams prove to be real.

You claim to have little morals...I admire your honesty but find your humanity wanting.

[Handyman 5,682]

I go through life with my eyes open,fostering a healthy skepticism and try to help when I can,I don't however hobble myself with paralyzing fear hiding in my well equipped and armed basement listening for non existent neighbor's screams or faceless armed intruders,calculating possible income losses while not acknowledging the inevitable loss of my humanity or manhood if those screams prove to be real.

You claim to have little morals...I admire your honesty but find your humanity wanting.

 

I'm suffering from some cognitive dissonance here. You have a great view of humanity, and live in an awesome town. Why, then, do you even own a firearm?

 

I guess to paraphrase, you don't really like to consider the potential consequences of your actions. People like Ayoob are pretty clear in teaching that you'd better consider potential consequences of firearm ownership. Just pulling that piece out - not even shooting someone, just pulling it out - might be a life-changing event.

 

Income is not my issue. I consider the primary responsibility in my life to be the welfare of my family. God, fate, nature or karma (whatever you choose to believe in) delivered these people into my care. After their security and welfare are assured, I'll make the rest of the world a better place. If it is in my power to control it, I won't do something that would leave them without a home, food, insurance, or prospects for a better future.

 

In real life, you and I are probably not really far apart in our beliefs. I raised these cases in the hope that some of the dickheads who work for people like Lautenberg troll these boards. What would the esteemed senator say is the right thing to do in these cases? I'd wager you would never get him to answer.

[Duppie 73]

I'm suffering from some cognitive dissonance here. You have a great view of humanity, and live in an awesome town. Why, then, do you even own a firearm?

 

I guess to paraphrase, you don't really like to consider the potential consequences of your actions. People like Ayoob are pretty clear in teaching that you'd better consider potential consequences of firearm ownership. Just pulling that piece out - not even shooting someone, just pulling it out - might be a life-changing event.

 

Income is not my issue. I consider the primary responsibility in my life to be the welfare of my family. God, fate, nature or karma (whatever you choose to believe in) delivered these people into my care. After their security and welfare are assured, I'll make the rest of the world a better place. If it is in my power to control it, I won't do something that would leave them without a home, food, insurance, or prospects for a better future.

 

In real life, you and I are probably not really far apart in our beliefs. I raised these cases in the hope that some of the dickheads who work for people like Lautenberg troll these boards. What would the esteemed senator say is the right thing to do in these cases? I'd wager you would never get him to answer.

I own several firearms and hope to own and fire many more. I own firearms because essentially shit happens and want to be prepared when it does. I don't however spend precious time formulating highly unlikely scenarios and then further trying to justify my possible inaction and fear by speculating on an even more unlikely result.

Hey look, you want to play out your own brand of victim scenario and then hold the state and it's laws accountable for your lack of moral fiber.. be my guest but I ain't buying and I venture neither will Lautenberg.

[Hawkin 0]

By "Jersey" law, you end up getting stabbed, shot, or any other serious injury to your back as you run inside your house and hide.

[Handyman 5,682]

I own several firearms and hope to own and fire many more. I own firearms because essentially shit happens and want to be prepared when it does. I don't however spend precious time formulating highly unlikely scenarios and then further trying to justify my possible inaction and fear by speculating on an even more unlikely result.

Hey look, you want to play out your own brand of victim scenario and then hold the state and it's laws accountable for your lack of moral fiber.. be my guest but I ain't buying and I venture neither will Lautenberg.

 

 

You'll have to quantify "highly unlikely" for me. Based on your own "shit happens" statement, maybe you should downgrade to plain old "unlikely?" Cops occasionally get their asses kicked. This day probably thousands of people will be injured - and some killed - in violent incidents. Many of these incidents will take place in the light of day. When I was a little kid, a guy across the street spent 10 minutes beating up his wife before the cops finally showed up. She was screaming the entire time. How do you respond? Walk over there with a baseball bat? With nothing? With a gun if you own one?

 

I'll go out on a limb and assume you are probably cavalier because you are single. And lest you worry to much about me being a "not get involved" type of person, I can tell you I have decades of experience as a firefighter and EMS provider. I've involved myself in more crappy situations than you could count on your fingers and toes. In fact, if you met me, you'd probably think I was completely awesome.

 

If I get killed helping someone, so be it. I have a ton of insurance. But if I wind up in the pokey, it's game over for my family. While I would not look forward to re-enacting the love scene from "Deliverance" my primary concern remains my family.

[when_shtf 4]

OP's question: "Someone comes onto my property and threatens my family. I shoot and kill them "outside"."

 

What do you do: Drag the body into your house THEN call the police Saves everybody a lot of heart ache.

[johnp 45]

OP's question: "Someone comes onto my property and threatens my family. I shoot and kill them "outside"."

 

What do you do: Drag the body into your house THEN call the police Saves everybody a lot of heart ache.

 

IDK, if you're completely joking or somewhat serious but those CSI people can do crazy shit with blood patterns, and drops of blood. You'd be better trying to lure the person closer to your front porch, if they don't have a gun and don't willingly run away.

[O-gre 7]

I suspect dupie watches MSNBC!

[Duppie 73]

I suspect dupie watches MSNBC!

Nope.. BBC,CNN,also subscribe to Reuters ,The Wall Street Journal, Dagbladet from Norway and the Trinidad Guardian.

[Yotafan 1]

Please read carefully. The fact is neither of my scenarios involved myself or my family. They involved an unrelated neighbor and a police office that I presumably would not know from Adam. Your desire to defend your family is admirable, and I share that desire. I am asking would you risk your family's welfare to defend a stranger?

 

If you saw a man smacking a woman and beating on her in public or a bar or something and you were the only person around would you speak up and do something? Maybe it is easier for me to say yes since i am a larger frame guy but in all the scenarios mentioned i would take action.

[Duppie 73]

You'll have to quantify "highly unlikely" for me. Based on your own "shit happens" statement, maybe you should downgrade to plain old "unlikely?" Cops occasionally get their asses kicked. This day probably thousands of people will be injured - and some killed - in violent incidents. Many of these incidents will take place in the light of day. When I was a little kid, a guy across the street spent 10 minutes beating up his wife before the cops finally showed up. She was screaming the entire time. How do you respond? Walk over there with a baseball bat? With nothing? With a gun if you own one?

 

I'll go out on a limb and assume you are probably cavalier because you are single. And lest you worry to much about me being a "not get involved" type of person, I can tell you I have decades of experience as a firefighter and EMS provider. I've involved myself in more crappy situations than you could count on your fingers and toes. In fact, if you met me, you'd probably think I was completely awesome.

 

If I get killed helping someone, so be it. I have a ton of insurance. But if I wind up in the pokey, it's game over for my family. While I would not look forward to re-enacting the love scene from "Deliverance" my primary concern remains my family.

....I think you're a real prince among men.....

[PK90 3,570]

If you saw a man smacking a woman and beating on her in public or a bar or something and you were the only person around would you speak up and do something? Maybe it is easier for me to say yes since i am a larger frame guy but in all the scenarios mentioned i would take action.

 

+1

[Handyman 5,682]

If you saw a man smacking a woman and beating on her in public or a bar or something and you were the only person around would you speak up and do something? Maybe it is easier for me to say yes since i am a larger frame guy but in all the scenarios mentioned i would take action.

 

That isn't the issue at hand. If you get arrested in a bar fight, maybe you get simple assault or disorderly conduct. Worst case here is I get my a** kicked and get a summons for my trouble.

 

The issue here is you see a situation that might warrant deadly force. You are not on your property. For whatever reason you have access to a gun. Do you pull it out? If this does not go well, you are going down with a felony.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

If you saw a man smacking a woman and beating on her in public or a bar or something and you were the only person around would you speak up and do something? Maybe it is easier for me to say yes since i am a larger frame guy but in all the scenarios mentioned i would take action.

 

I'm not a larger guy but I sure wouldn't just watch..

[Handyman 5,682]

....I think you're a real prince among men.....

 

Thanks! That means a lot, coming from a gun-totin' humanist like you...

[O-gre 7]

Original intent of the thread was on your own property but not in your house. You CAN legally carry but using it to protect your family is unclear legally of course.

[Adam 6]

Retreating is not an option. I'm thinking there is a knife, gun or some other life taking scenerio. If we can carry outside on our property then we "should" also be able to protect ourselves.

 

This is NJ. You could be sitting in your living room and someone comes through the back door. If you shoot they will ask why didn't you retreat out the front door...

[Handyman 5,682]

On your own property, is there a legal distinction betwen carrying it and pointing it at someone? Or I guess the better question is, if someone is exhibiting threatening behavior outside on your property, can you pull it out to attempt to scare someone away?

[hd2000fxdl 422]

On your own property, is there a legal distinction betwen carrying it and pointing it at someone? Or I guess the better question is, if someone is exhibiting threatening behavior outside on your property, can you pull it out to attempt to scare someone away?

 

Sorry, you do not pull a gun on someone to scare them.. If it's time to pull a gun out there is a threat that needs to be stopped, if not, no gun is needed..

[Handyman 5,682]

Sounds like there is no sense even carrying a gun on your own property outside of your house, then.

 

I know if I was fixing to attack someone, my attitude might be a little different facing a holstered vs unholstered weapon.

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

I'm not sure if it was on this forum, or another one I was looking at, but one of the rules for posting was "No scenarios." I believe the reason is that we can make up "What ifs?" ad nauseum, and never really get anywhere with them.

[O-gre 7]

I think it's a valid discussion. Some may take it into another direction but they do that with other topics as well.

[johnp 45]

I think it's a valid discussion. Some may take it into another direction but they do that with other topics as well.

 

I agree. It turned into a bit of pissing contest. But handyman raises some good points. Are some of his scenarios highly unlikely? Yes. Impossible...Nope

[when_shtf 4]

IDK, if you're completely joking or somewhat serious but those CSI people can do crazy shit with blood patterns, and drops of blood. You'd be better trying to lure the person closer to your front porch, if they don't have a gun and don't willingly run away.

 

Joking. The OP's premise reminded me of a conversation I had with a flight instructor many years ago. I was asked a typical question: "what do you do in the event of an emergency?". I gave the typical answer; "fly the airplane, communicate, comply". The instructor said (jokingly) "no, you throw your log book out the window".

 

The point is you may do the right thing at the time to save lives, but you will pay the price when the dust settles.

[Duppie 73]

I agree. It turned into a bit of pissing contest. But handyman raises some good points. Are some of his scenarios highly unlikely? Yes. Impossible...Nope

Yes, it did turn into a pissing contest and for that I apologize. The point I was attempting to illustrate is that we've all seen the outrageous and farfetched scenarios offered here at times that basically morphs into a spiraling vortex of what if's to no better conclusion.I recall reading a question about what would happen if my wife handed me a loaded mag during a critical event ,would it be considered illegal because she had no FID? Really?

But I really got incensed when a question of not how but if you would help a LEO or Neighbor came up in another farfetched scenario.

As supposedly good and righteous gun enthusiast to question a response so basic as to help another in distress to me at least is a no brainer, it seems..... well,basic and intuitive.All pontificating and bs aside,Jersey firearm and castle laws are punishing but does it justify us having to think even for a second if the occasion should arise?.

Would I use possible deadly force in either of Handyman's scenarios?,Possibly. Would I consider the possible ramifications on my family future? Yes. Would it alter my response? I hope not.Would I be able to face myself and my family if I had the opportunity to save a life and did little or nothing regardless of penalties? No.

Pretty straightforward Gentlemen.

[Duppie 73]

I'm not sure if it was on this forum, or another one I was looking at, but one of the rules for posting was "No scenarios." I believe the reason is that we can make up "What ifs?" ad nauseum, and never really get anywhere with them.

+1

[ITman 2]

Just what news are you watching?......Cops being attacked by men and folks driving by with a firearm and not helping,Jason like attackers accosting female neighbors while someone clean their guns in a open garage,trigger happy dickheads,Panicked neighbors..Your neighbors? I don't subscribe to Fox news and I don't suggest you should either.

Actually it sounds more like MSNBC, Rev Al and Ed Shultz.

[Handyman 5,682]

I guess my main interest was in exploring two points:

 

1. None of this would be an issue in a state where CCW is accepted. The current laws in NJ make it difficult to get involved or to help, even if you are the type of person who would normally do so. Legislators should appreciate this.

 

2. If you choose to involve yourself in a situation like this, you'd better be very careful about how you are perceived. Joe Citizen walking around a crime scene with a gun in hand has a higher than average risk of getting two in the chest from a jumpy responding officer.

 

As to any of these scenarios being highly improbable, I hope this becomes the case someday. People are in bad situations in every state every hour of every day. Many of those situations are witnessed by others. The folks who read this board have a better than average chance of having access to a weapon - should they choose to use it - to address those situations. My questions are would you, and do you know the consequences?

 

Someone raised the issue of a man is slapping around his girlfirend in a bar. You intervene. He pulls out a knife. You pull out a gun? Even if this scenario stops here, you are going to prison in NJ.