Question about NJ transportation law - in practice

[kwadz 11]

Ok, so I have been having a debate with a friend over whether NJ's laws allow for hunters/shooters to stop at the diner, Wawa, or a gas station on the way home from hunting or the range. To me, the way the law is written, it absolutely does NOT allow for any such stop unless the police subjectively decide that it is reasonable necessary. He claims that those of us who feel the way I do are being alarmists and in years and years of practice and precedent, they do not arrest people for doing such things.

 

He said it's common, to the effect of being standard, during hunting season for guys to stop at the diner in full camo/orange for a cup of coffee on the way to the field and for lunch on the way home and police consistently see them doing this and historically have done nothing about it. He says that since the precedent has been set for years on end, it would take an announcement from the AG or NJSP that they will start enforcing the "reasonably necessary" clause and arresting people or else they would have no legal basis for changing precedent.

 

His argument is entirely based on what really happens in the field and not on the semantics of the wording. He said unless he saw cited examples of people getting arrested in these situations, he wouldn't change what he does. FYI, he's been a hunter and clay shooter for 20-25 years in NJ.

 

I'd like to get some feedback from you guys on whether we are overreacting, as he says, or if we have legitimate cause for concern. I cited the law below for reference.

 

N.J.S.2C:39-5

 

(1)A member of any rifle or pistol club organized in accordance with the rules prescribed by the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice, in going to or from a place of target practice, carrying such firearms as are necessary for said target practice, provided that the club has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits a list of its members to the superintendent and provided further that the firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section;

 

(2)A person carrying a firearm or knife in the woods or fields or upon the waters of this State for the purpose of hunting, target practice or fishing, provided that the firearm or knife is legal and appropriate for hunting or fishing purposes in this State and he has in his possession a valid hunting license, or, with respect to fresh water fishing, a valid fishing license;

 

(3)A person transporting any firearm or knife while traveling:

 

(a)Directly to or from any place for the purpose of hunting or fishing, provided the person has in his possession a valid hunting or fishing license; or

 

(b)Directly to or from any target range, or other authorized place for the purpose of practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions, provided in all cases that during the course of the travel all firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section and the person has complied with all the provisions and requirements of Title 23 of the Revised Statutes and any amendments thereto and all rules and regulations promulgated thereunder; or

 

©In the case of a firearm, directly to or from any exhibition or display of firearms which is sponsored by any law enforcement agency, any rifle or pistol club, or any firearms collectors club, for the purpose of displaying the firearms to the public or to the members of the organization or club, provided, however, that not less than 30 days prior to the exhibition or display, notice of the exhibition or display shall be given to the Superintendent of the State Police by the sponsoring organization or club, and the sponsor has complied with such reasonable safety regulations as the superintendent may promulgate. Any firearms transported pursuant to this section shall be transported in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section;

 

(4)A person from keeping or carrying about a private or commercial aircraft or any boat, or from transporting to or from such vessel for the purpose of installation or repair a visual distress signaling device approved by the United States Coast Guard.

 

g.All weapons being transported under paragraph (2) of subsection b., subsection e., or paragraph (1) or (3) of subsection f. of this section shall be carried unloaded and contained in a closed and fastened case, gunbox, securely tied package, or locked in the trunk of the automobile in which it is being transported, and in the course of travel shall include only such deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

[Malsua 1,422]

Hunters with long guns and a Firearms Purchaser ID card can stop and get a meal without any issues, 100% legally. The Firearms Purchaser ID card exempts you from the exemptions and allows you to have an unloaded long gun anywhere that it is legal.

[kwadz 11]

The Firearms Purchaser ID card exempts you from the exemptions and allows you to have an unloaded long gun anywhere that it is legal.

 

Do you mind quoting a statute that states that? Also, what is the definition of "anywhere that is legal"? So does that mean that you can legally just keep a rifle in your trunk all the time as long as it's unloaded? That would be great if it was the case, but I've never heard of it being that way. If you can cite something, I'd be very happy.

[Malsua 1,422]

2C:39-5. You left off the important bits in your quote above.

 

It defines unlawful possession then it maps out exemptions which you quoted above. If you have first obtained a FPID, the possession charge does not apply to you and therefore the exemptions don't either.

 

Rifles and shotguns. (1) Any person who knowingly has in his possession any rifle or shotgun without having first obtained a firearms purchaser identification card in accordance with the provisions of N.J.S.2C:58-3, is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

 

(2) Unless otherwise permitted by law, any person who knowingly has in his possession any loaded rifle or shotgun is guilty of a crime of the third degree.

 

Seriously though, this particular topic has been beaten to death here. Read the forum.

[Justjules 0]

I can assure you no cop in NJ is wasting their time arresting a lawful gun owner on any of your concerns. They simply just dont have the time,manpower or will to do so. Their hands are full with illegal gun owners in this state. Besides, who can determine what "deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances"???

[leahcim 680]

I think the collective wisdom on this forum was that it is legal to keep an unloaded long gun in your vehicle:

http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php?/topic/35608-anything-wrong-with-driving-around-with-an-unloaded-long-gun-in-the-trunk/page__hl__trunk__fromsearch__1

[woodentoe 14]

This.

 

Food/water, fuel, shelter in the event of breakdown, bodily functions...these are all either necessities of life or realities of living in the world. I think any prosecutor or LEO would be hard pressed to suggest that these are not reasonable deviations provided the firearm is possessed legally and transported in a manner consistent with the statute.

 

Even stopping to pick up a shooting partner en route. 2 individuals are traveling to a legitimate range to engage in target shooting. It is reasonable that one will pick up the other for that purpose. I really believe that unless you're int he commission of a crime (an unreasonable deviation..lol) that these actions are pretty benign.

 

We tend to be alarmist and use Brian Aitken or Pelletere as examples of how the law is draconian. It IS draconian. But Aitken was arrested because the arresting officer believed that either his parents' house or his Hoboken apartment were NOT his legal residence and therefore not an exempted location AND the magazine that he was in possession of was not legal in New Jersey. It is NOT because he deviated to take a dump on his way home from the range.

 

Pelletere was arrested because the long arm he was in possession of was not legal in NJ due to capacity restrictions. Rediculous? Yes! Completely! But not a result of reasonable deviation. Cite for me an example of a documented and successful prosecution of someone whose sole offense was stopping at the diner for a cheeseburger on the way home from shooting. Has it ever happened? I'm not being sarcastic here...I'd like to know.

[leahcim 680]

Ok, so I have been having a debate with a friend over whether NJ's laws allow for hunters/shooters to stop at the diner, Wawa, or a gas station on the way home from hunting or the range.

The way I understand the law, you are OK--unless you are hunting with pistols.

[Justjules 0]

This.

 

Food/water, fuel, shelter in the event of breakdown, bodily functions...these are all either necessities of life or realities of living in the world. I think any prosecutor or LEO would be hard pressed to suggest that these are not reasonable deviations provided the firearm is possessed legally and transported in a manner consistent with the statute.

 

Even stopping to pick up a shooting partner en route. 2 individuals are traveling to a legitimate range to engage in target shooting. It is reasonable that one will pick up the other for that purpose. I really believe that unless you're int he commission of a crime (an unreasonable deviation..lol) that these actions are pretty benign.

 

We tend to be alarmist and use Brian Aitken or Pelletere as examples of how the law is draconian. It IS draconian. But Aitken was arrested because the arresting officer believed that either his parents' house or his Hoboken apartment were NOT his legal residence and therefore not an exempted location AND the magazine that he was in possession of was not legal in New Jersey. It is NOT because he deviated to take a dump on his way home from the range.

 

Pelletere was arrested because the long arm he was in possession of was not legal in NJ due to capacity restrictions. Rediculous? Yes! Completely! But not a result of reasonable deviation. Cite for me an example of a documented and successful prosecution of someone whose sole offense was stopping at the diner for a cheeseburger on the way home from shooting. Has it ever happened? I'm not being sarcastic here...I'd like to know.

 

Furthermore, how would any LE know you were carrying firearms in your trunk unless you either told them or they did an illegal search... People worry too much..Now if your driving around at 3 am with a loaded shotgun in your back seat, you might have issues..lol

[reloaderguy 30]

Every Sunday after shooting, myself, 2 judges and an attorney stop by the diner for breakfast.

[woodentoe 14]

Every Sunday after shooting myself, 2 judges and an attorney stop by the diner for breakfast.

 

Please don't shoot yourself.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

This.

 

Food/water, fuel, shelter in the event of breakdown, bodily functions...these are all either necessities of life or realities of living in the world. I think any prosecutor or LEO would be hard pressed to suggest that these are not reasonable deviations provided the firearm is possessed legally and transported in a manner consistent with the statute.

 

Even stopping to pick up a shooting partner en route. 2 individuals are traveling to a legitimate range to engage in target shooting. It is reasonable that one will pick up the other for that purpose. I really believe that unless you're int he commission of a crime (an unreasonable deviation..lol) that these actions are pretty benign.

 

We tend to be alarmist and use Brian Aitken or Pelletere as examples of how the law is draconian. It IS draconian. But Aitken was arrested because the arresting officer believed that either his parents' house or his Hoboken apartment were NOT his legal residence and therefore not an exempted location AND the magazine that he was in possession of was not legal in New Jersey. It is NOT because he deviated to take a dump on his way home from the range.

 

Pelletere was arrested because the long arm he was in possession of was not legal in NJ due to capacity restrictions. Rediculous? Yes! Completely! But not a result of reasonable deviation. Cite for me an example of a documented and successful prosecution of someone whose sole offense was stopping at the diner for a cheeseburger on the way home from shooting. Has it ever happened? I'm not being sarcastic here...I'd like to know.

 

GREAT POST! This is my take on this entire situation. As a Type 2 diabetic, I need to stop for a meal or just a small snack to keep my blood sugar level where it needs to be. I don't think a County Prosecutor wants to deal with expert witness testimony from a medical doctor on why stopping was "reasonable under the circumstances". IANAL, but this quoted post pretty much seconds my opinion about how I handle myself after experiencing our hobby for the last 44+ years!

[woodentoe 14]

GREAT POST! This is my take on this entire situation. As a Type 2 diabetic, I need to stop for a meal or just a small snack to keep my blood sugar level where it needs to be. I don't think a County Prosecutor wants to deal with expert witness testimony from a medical doctor on why stopping was "reasonable under the circumstances". IANAL, but this quoted post pretty much seconds my opinion about how I handle myself after experiencing our hobby for the last 44+ years!

 

Even as someone who is not living with Diabetes or another medically required exemption. As human beings, if we don't eat...we die. If we don't have water...we die. If our vehicle runs out of gas....WE DIE!!!! well, just kidding on the last part...lol

 

The point is that there are deviations that will happen that are "reasonable" to the circumstances of going shooting legally. The law was written in such a way to include 'reasonable deviation' not 'necessary deviation' so that there was a mechanism in place where you COULD stop for food, fuel. to pick up shooting partners.

 

I'd be enthusiastic about seeing some documented and successful prosecution of someone whose sole offense was stopping for things any sane person would consider reasonable under the circumstances (food/fuel/ammo/targets/carpool).

[halbautomatisch 60]

Legally, you could hold an unloaded, uncased long gun out the window and drive to the diner (or almost anywhere else) as long as you have an FID card - like a redneck parade.

[223lover 9]

When I was on the Fair Lawn Pistol Team we used to shoot the Allentown, Livingston and Franklin match, and have breakfast at the Franklin diner before the shoot. There were at least 12 guys with brown shirts with crossed pistols embroidered on the back and large red letters that read FAIR LAWN PISTOL TEAM. Never had any problems. Just be sensible and abide by the law and you'll do fine.Cops know there is a pistol club or match in their town, you guys worry about the damndest things.

[Justjules 0]

Legally, you could hold an unloaded, uncased long gun out the window and drive to the diner (or almost anywhere else) as long as you have an FID card - like a redneck parade.

 

Let me know how that goes for ya..

[Qel Hoth 33]

Let me know how that goes for ya..

 

While I agree that it is not a good idea and will likely not end well, it is legal...

 

IANAL.

[Justjules 0]

While I agree that it is not a good idea and will likely not end well, it is legal...

 

IANAL.

 

Ehhhh, dont know about that..just pointing a fire arm at a person or a structure you believe to be occupied is agg assault whether it is loaded or not... I really would not say it would end well, someone would most likely shoot you. Either the cops or the gang bangers..lol

[Qel Hoth 33]

Ehhhh, dont know about that..just pointing a fire arm at a person or a structure you believe to be occupied is agg assault whether it is loaded or not... I really would not say it would end well, someone would most likely shoot you. Either the cops or the gang bangers..lol

 

True on the agg a, but the possession isn't illegal, which is what I (and I believe he) was referring to.

[Justjules 0]

True on the agg a, but the possession isn't illegal, which is what I (and I believe he) was referring to.

 

Well in NJ there are 2 possession charges you would or could get charged with , not specifically in this scenario. But there is

Possession of a weapon for an unlawful purpose and Unlawful possession of a weapon....WE usually charge people with both when we arrest them doing something like an armed robbery or agg assault.

[halbautomatisch 60]

True on the agg a, but the possession isn't illegal, which is what I (and I believe he) was referring to.

 

Yup, I was not suggesting anyone try this, just bringing up the fact that the law in NJ (surprisingly) does not prohibit anyone from doing it as long as they have an FID card.

[Justjules 0]

Yup, I was not suggesting anyone try this, just bringing up the fact that the law in NJ (surprisingly) does not prohibit anyone from doing it as long as they have an FID card.

 

Just cause you CAN do something doesnt mean you SHOULD do it...lol I would love to see it and how it turned out..

[halbautomatisch 60]

Just cause you CAN do something doesnt mean you SHOULD do it...lol I would love to see it and how it turned out..

 

Well I certainly am not going to try it, I've got better things to do with my time and money than deal with what might come out of that., besides I would probably hit a pothole and drop my shotgun, doing grave harm to it.

 

As far as how something like that would turn out, I guess it would depend on what part of the state you tried it in - in the backs woods of Sussex or Warren county, the people there might notice it and think it's a touch odd, in Newark you'd probably get shot, the suburbs would be something between the two.

[Parker 213]

Remember when it was common to see pickups with gun racks in them in New Jersey during hunting season? At times it doesn't seem that long ago, but I guess it was. Before driving home at the end of the day, all I'd do was zip them in a soft case and put them back in the rack. I transported that way until I sold my P/U to my brother in 1984.

 

To this day, transportation of firearms in the state of New York while hunting dictates they only need to be unloaded in the chamber & magazine. I see lots of uncased, exposed firearms in New York right now in pickup racks during woodchuck season around the onion & apple farm communities and nobody bats an eyelash in alarm or gets squeamish.

[LorenzoS 100]

I can assure you no cop in NJ is wasting their time arresting a lawful gun owner on any of your concerns. They simply just dont have the time,manpower or will to do so. Their hands are full with illegal gun owners in this state. Besides, who can determine what "deviations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances"???

 

Tell that to Brian Aitken and Gregg Revell. In New Jersey gun owners are guilty unless they can prove themselves innocent.

[Justjules 0]

Tell that to Brian Aitken and Gregg Revell. In New Jersey gun owners are guilty unless they can prove themselves innocent.

 

Not familiar with those names, please educate.disregard, googled them.

[Dan 177]

Technically it is legal for a FPID card holder to have an unloaded and uncased long gun on a gun rack in a truck. Funny, I just had this conversation with a fellow from PA over at CJ today. He was explaining how the Marlin 45-70 he was shooting was his "truck gun", that got the convo started.

 

As long as you aren't doing anything else with the long gun that would break the law, like pointing it at people, or threatening to use it on someone, etc, I don't think that LE could charge you with anything. That being said, as always... this is NJ, and this behavior will cause issues unless you are out in the wilderness or a hunting area. All about context and discretion when it comes to guns in NJ.

[Teufelhunden 6]

Could you be held liable for anything if your gun was stolen from your vehicle and used in a crime?

[Justjules 0]

Could you be held liable for anything if your gun was stolen from your vehicle and used in a crime?

 

Im sure in this sue happy state you could be held civilly liable..Cant think of anything criminally unless you made an unessential stop somewhere to get a cup of coffee.. :keeporder:

[Dan 177]

Im sure in this sue happy state you could be held civilly liable..Cant think of anything criminally unless you made an unessential stop somewhere to get a cup of coffee.. :keeporder:

 

NJFID + long gun... no need to follow 39-6 exemptions... and the whole "reasonably necessary" stop thing. It just has to be unloaded.