followup to Bedside thread that drifted a bit...

[High Exposure 5,671]

I did the shotty hd gun for a while. Now its my xdm 3.8. 45 loaded with speer gold dots. Thats my nightstand gun. I can clear rooms, use in cqb if needed or during a one handed weapon retention shoot if my other hand is occupied. Versatility and stopping power. No light needed. Gives away position.

 

Wait. What?

 

Versality and stopping power? It is a pistol. How versatile can it be? It can do one thing, close range engagements, and it can only do those marginally at best.

 

No light needed? How do you positvely ID your threat as a threat if you can't see them? How do you pick up your sights on the bounce, in the dark, heart hammering away at 200bpm, groggy with sleep, and put them on target with no light? If you have to fire, how do you know if you hit the bad guy? How do you know if your hits worked and he is down? How do you know if he is staying down? How do you know if he is alone?

 

"use in cqb if needed or during a one handed weapon retention shoot if my other hand is occupied" it will be occupied alright, with a flashlight when you realize you cant see anything.

 

As far as a light giving away your position, what do you do in the daylight conditions when people can see you? Use your light properly and it is a moot point.

 

If you are merely referencing weapon mounted lights under the no light needed statement, consider this. I don't know about you, but I shoot better, faster, and more accurately using both of my hands on the pistol. No matter what hand held technique you prefer, there will be some lessening of ability. I dont know your take on that, but I want to be shooting to the best of my abilities if I ever find myself in a gunfight. You may argue that a light on the pistol creates a Rule 2 Violation. OK, but I am ready to destroy those that I light up until I am sure they are not a threat, so from my way of thinking, no violation. The weaponlight gives me the ability to identify that person as a bad guy, an unknown, or good guy. If necessary to engage, there is no messing with the hand held light or poor one handed shooting shooting techniques. If it comes to shots fired, I can shoot using the same 2 handed grip, stance, tactics, etc... that I train with on a regular basis. No "I hope I can make this work" under fire. If I light it up and identify the target as not being a threat, then I move on to whatever I need to do next. The dedicated weaponlight also lets me use the light and keep a hand free to open a door, pick up my kid, use the phone.

 

Bottom line, you need a light for SD/HD. A handheld is better than nothing, but if it is an option, then a dedicated weapon light is the A answer all day long.

[woodentoe 14]

 

Empty chamber, gun on safe. If you think your kids can pump the action to chamber a round and off the safety, then get one of those shotgun safes that locks the action. I can't find the link though.

 

This doesn't work for me. Regardless of whether my kids can operate the action , I do not want them to have hands on access at all without my supervision.

 

How about something like this?

 

http://www.sentrysafe.com/HDC

[Ray Ray 3,566]

This doesn't work for me. Regardless of whether my kids can operate the action , I do not want them to have hands on access at all without my supervision.

 

How about something like this?

 

http://www.sentrysafe.com/HDC

 

this

http://www.shotlock.com/ShotCart/Default.asp

[bhunted 887]

Did't I just post that?

 

 

this

http://www.shotlock.com/ShotCart/Default.asp

 

 

Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD

[Ray Ray 3,566]

Did't I just post that?

 

Yup, and so did I

[Sandy 44]

Thanks guys! That was exactly the kind of thing I was looking for . I wonder if it comes in a biometric version .

 

And I totally think my 4 year old boy could rack one in IF he sees it done somewhere. He is like that..one of "those" . If he sees something done in sequence he'll remember it..

[woodentoe 14]

THis is what I have right now for handguns.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Fort-Knox-FTK-PB-Pistol-Handgun/dp/B004H6MKI8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341454166&sr=8-1&keywords=fort+knox+pistol+boxI

 

prefer simplex locks to biometric. mechanical combo. no battery necessary.

[NoThanksImOut 0]

For handguns, I only feel comfortable with condition 1 or 0 if it is in a holster that covers the trigger. As was referenced earlier in the thread, it has to do with your training. I was surprised no one else mentioned this, as I'm guessing most have received training that involves condition 1 or 0 just sitting on a table next to their bed. Having practiced, I find it easy to get my firearm from the holster very quickly, but I still prefer the shotgun without one in the chamber.

 

As far as a light giving away your position, what do you do in the daylight conditions when people can see you? Use your light properly and it is a moot point.

 

I am a relative gun newbie compared to many, and I'm sorry, but this statement made me do your "Wait, what?"

 

If I open my bedroom door with a flashlight turned on, someone down the stairs and around the complete other side of the house breaking into a window now knows that I came out of my bedroom just by sight alone.

 

I can see sufficiently with my two night lights, and ghost rings. Even without them, the streetlight outside the front of my house is very useful. I find I only need a very small amount of light to see effectively in the dark, especially if I've just woken up.

 

Now I'm not saying a gun attached light does not have it's place - everyone's house is different and you have to prepare yourself for your own environment.

 

The thing that makes me wonder the most is the super bright flashlights I see attached to weapons sometimes. Wouldn't anything over 5-10 lumens ruin your peripheral vision if your eyes have adjusted to the dark? I find 1-4 lumens to be more than sufficient.

[High Exposure 5,671]

I am a relative gun newbie compared to many, and I'm sorry, but this statement made me do your "Wait, what?"

 

If I open my bedroom door with a flashlight turned on, someone down the stairs and around the complete other side of the house breaking into a window now knows that I came out of my bedroom just by sight alone.

 

I can see sufficiently with my two night lights, and ghost rings. Even without them, the streetlight outside the front of my house is very useful. I find I only need a very small amount of light to see effectively in the dark, especially if I've just woken up.

 

Now I'm not saying a gun attached light does not have it's place - everyone's house is different and you have to prepare yourself for your own environment.

 

The thing that makes me wonder the most is the super bright flashlights I see attached to weapons sometimes. Wouldn't anything over 5-10 lumens ruin your peripheral vision if your eyes have adjusted to the dark? I find 1-4 lumens to be more than sufficient.

 

Slight thread hijack, but important. Apologies to the OP.

 

In any confrontation that involves the use of Deadly Physical Force (DPF) with a firearm there is a sort of process, almost like a flow-chart full of if-then statements. Now, these statements are not absolutes, and require discretion based of tiny amounts of data gathered by all of your senses, but mostly by sight. Humans do not see that well in twilight/low light/dark conditions, so we need help. Help in the form of artificial light.

 

Now this is overly simplified, and geared towards addressing a home intruder specifically, but the engagement process goes something like this for a threat that requires gunshots:

 

Recognition of a problem > search > acquire > ID threat > engage > evaluate > scan > post engagement sequence > secure > communicate

 

Now with a little more explaination for each step in a home intruder type scenario:

 

You are sound asleep and something goes bump in the night - first you realize there is a problem then you begin your search/evacuation/lockdown procedures which should be pre-planned.

 

During your search, evacuation, or lockdown process you may come into contact with a target, either due to you seeing them as you move through your home or them seeing you as they approach your baricaded position. This contact process should go something like this:

 

Acquire a target THEN identify the target - you have 3 choices for ID here: friendly - unknown - threat

- If friendly then move on and continue the search/acquire/ID cycle while executing your evac/shelter/search plan

- If unknown then attempt to identify further: verbal challenge - observation - visual ID

- If threat then address appropriately based on threat.

 

Now, does addressing the threat appropriately mean retreat, engage, posture? That's dependent on too many circumstances to list. If, however, engagement is the answer, then see my post above for what you may need a white light for and why I prefer a dedicated weapon mounted light.

 

Finally, after any engagement, you need to:

- evaluate the amount of force used and reapply as necessary, if your initial use of force was adequate then proceed to:

- complete a scan

- perform and any post engagement processes you subscribe to

- if necessary secure the threat

 

There are a lot of variables during each of the above steps, but there is one constant -

You need to SEE to acquire and ID the target

You need to SEE to engage the threat

You need to SEE to determine if your engagement worked

You need to SEE to complete your scan

You need to SEE to complete your post engagement sequence, whatever way you were trained

You need to SEE to secure the threat

 

Every step of this process indicates the need for light, and a lot of it!

 

Great, you can see down your hallway with your night lights and street light. Can you discern the difference between a cellphone, car keys, knife, flashlight, and gun with the small amount of light present from your night lights and streetlights, at distances from your bedroom door to wherever the threat may be?

 

Hopefully the bad guy is standing away from all shadows, in the brightest throw of the streetlight through your windows, is holding still, showing you his hands so you can check, and wearing glow in the dark clothing so you can recognize the strange shape is a person, and not the dog, a pile of laundry, a weird shadow, etc... Remember, deadly force is not authorized for property crimes. You better make sure that is a weapon in his hand and not the remote to your TV, or his own flashlight.

 

How about this, it is a hot summer night. The power is out due to everyone using their A/C units (not too far fetched in the NE). It's hot so all of your windows are open and you think you hear something in the hallway that waks you up. Your windows are open, so it could just be the wind, but it could also be a gen-u-wine bad guy in your home. No street light, no night lights, just you, your HD weapon of choice and your whole house to check and family to keep safe. Now what?

 

Yes, I understand white light points two ways. It can give your position away while you ID. Easy solution? Use your light appropriately. Why on Earth would you open your door to look down your hallway with a flashlight already on? Acquire a target without the light, then if necessary, ID the target with the light. No target, no white light and continue your search without giving up your position. If you do have a target, ID to the best of your ability, then address appropriately. Don't just turn it on and blast that white light around. Use it with a purpose.

 

What I meant by: "As far as a light giving away your position, what do you do in the daylight conditions when people can see you? Use your light properly and it is a moot point." Is this:

 

You should already be conducting any search for an armed intruder/assailant as if it is high-noon, you are wearing lights on your chest that spell out "shoot me", there is a giant bullseye on your face, and a 5 million dollar bounty on your head. A light makes you a bullet magnet at night as much as your body does in the daytime. If you are seen, and the bad guy is dedicated to doing bad things and armed, you are going to be shot at. Day, night, dark, light - use cover and concealment. In low-light use your light appropriately. It's a dangerous game. Play it smart and stack the deck in your favor.

 

As far as brightness of a white light, I have at least 200 lumens on all of my long guns and 170 lumens on my primary social pistols. I have searched for armed individuals in the dark or low light. I can tell you this, you can't have enough light. I don't want to guess that what the dude is holding is a cellphone or a knife or a gun. I want to know, and I want to know right now. Because while I am deciding what to do - shoot or not - so is he. I better decide before he does, and being the good guy, I better be right because I care about what I hit, he may not.

 

You said you can "see" effectively in the dark and that you are finding 1-4 lumens to be sufficient. My guess is that is because you never had to move past the acquire phase and into the identification or engagement phases in a confrontation either, for real or in training, that has consequences.

 

In my experience, at 50 yards and over, less than 200 lumens is useless for anything more than acquisition of a target. ID and engagement (with 100% sureity) is impossible even with ambient moon/streetlight abailable. At 25 yards and closer, a minimum of 100 lumens is called for. I don't want to be in the defendants seat, post shooting, and trying to convince the jury that the moonlight streaming through the window was enough to determine that DPF was necessary.

 

I am now playing with a 500 lumen light on a long gun in anticipation of an upgrade for all my rifles, and I like it a lot.

 

Haelous, read my post again. You will see why I prefer a weapon light over a handheld. That being said, you need some kind of light and the brighter the better. Period. I keep a handheld next to my pistol safe as well. Both work and have their place. Both do different jobs and I grab both if I have to bump back in the night, whether that happens to be in my house or someone elses.

 

Get some low-light training and decide what works for you.

Edited July 8, 2012 by High Exposure

[NoThanksImOut 0]

That post was very helpful to a newbie, and it's appreciated. Thank you.

 

I understand what you mean by moving from acquire to identify and that I could use some home defense specific training. What you're getting at is that while I can identify that someone is there in low light and I could identify someone I am already familiar with, I couldn't tell the difference between a police officer and an armed robber.

[david8613 69]

very good high exposure...

[High Exposure 5,671]

I am glad it was helpful.

 

But what I was getting at was more precise than that.

 

If you are deciding to use DPF on someone, you may need to determine more than just familiar or unknown, Police or bad guy. It may come down to what is in their hands or the look in their eye. It may be the fact that their finger is on or off the trigger or the way they are holding the knife that flips the switch in your mind and screams "SHOOT!!! or you will die!"

 

Light helps you see those little things and speed up your ability to make those life or death split second decisions.

 

Don't forget, the bad guy has a vote in all of this as well. Not only are you in a fight, but it is a race.

 

Now, keep in mind that my post doesn't even touch on actual low light tactics, techniques or procedures (TTPs) for the actual engagement sequence or shooting techniques with artificial light sources - either handheld, dedicated weapon lights, or tertiary/supplemental light sources such as back lighting or silhouetting, multiple targets, or more than 1 "defender". That topic is a whole other ball of wax with a multitude of accepted "best practices" that is difficult at best to explain without demonstrations/hands on. I am strictly talking about the search-acquire-ID process requiring the use of a while light, by someone with little to no training in a home defense type scenario.

Edited July 8, 2012 by High Exposure

[NoThanksImOut 0]

Understood, and thanks for the clarification.

 

I know that I would benefit greatly from some degree of training.

 

As I am certain I will need a light on my shotgun for something like this, I'll make another thread to avoid jacking this one once I have an idea of what to get.

 

Thanks again.

[when_shtf 4]

What kind of semi-auto do you have? If it's hammer fired, I would get comfortable with a round in the chamber, de-cocked. If the weapon is DA/SA, all it takes to start the party is a simple pull of the trigger. If it's a striker-fired semi-auto, then cocked and locked is your best option.

 

More then likely, you wont know that bad sh!t is about to happen until it's actually happening. If you're fumbling with a weapon instead of firing it, chances are that weapon will become the weapon that gets you killed.

 

personally, I like hammer fired weapons - one in the chamber, always ready to go.

[Mikeythumbs 1]

What kind of semi-auto do you have? If it's hammer fired, I would get comfortable with a round in the chamber, de-cocked. If the weapon is DA/SA, all it takes to start the party is a simple pull of the trigger. If it's a striker-fired semi-auto, then cocked and locked is your best option.

 

More then likely, you wont know that bad sh!t is about to happen until it's actually happening. If you're fumbling with a weapon instead of firing it, chances are that weapon will become the weapon that gets you killed.

 

personally, I like hammer fired weapons - one in the chamber, always ready to go.

 

 

I agree with most of what you say the only thing I dont is the hammer fired sa. I think it is too hard in an emergency to try to cock the gun esp if the there is a bob tail on it. I would rather just go cond 1 and know all i have to do is throw the safty off and be ready for action. i actually feel if you are going to keeep the hammer down you are better to keep the chamber empty and rack the slide. its just my opinion but racking the slide is much easier then trying to cock a 1911 with a beavertail or duckbill which ever you waqnt to call it

[Sandy 44]

Just wanted to second getting some low light training. I did Low Light No Light with GFH and it was very educational.