NYPD really do need training

[bhunted 887]

Read my pm... ya posted this before you read it...

 

The video is what it is. It is a recording of a specific moment in time from a specific location. There is no frame of reference. We don't know haw long into the incident this occured, what the people in the videos mindset was, what verbal commands were or were not given. I mostly wanted to show that the Officer wasn't simply "Bumped" as reported by the video. He had an unknown suspect run into him, while he had another suspect at gunpoint. I can't tell but it almost looks like he ran right into his pistol.

 

Woodentoe you are 100% correct, you are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else. When I said I didn't want an opinion, I was answering your statement "I assume you want an opinion". I did not mean to imply that your opinion didn't matter or that you were not entitled to one. My posts were not in solicitation of an opinion on this matter. I apologize if it came off that way. Mea Culpa.

 

When I stated that I wasnt there and was not going to speculate, I meant that I am not going to speculate if it was an ND, an AD, or a purposefully fired shot at someone deemed an immediate threat to the Officer's life.

 

As far as the victim being a "threat", Yes, I believe that the young man that tragically lost his life was an unidentified suspect and should be treated accordingly by the Officer on scene.

 

 

 

bhunted, you may want to check your sarcasm meter. I believe the battery is dead. Yes, I saw what you wrote in parenthesis. It did not come off as a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain. It came off as a statement of your belief that it is in fact difficult to have an ND or AD with a 12lb trigger.

 

So if that was simply sarcasm, then you do believe it is possible to have an ND with a 12lb trigger?

[specopsscout 26]

From my limited perspective of the video, it appears the Officer arrived on scene and was looking for additional information; he's gesturing, looking around and appears to be speaking. From the way he is looking around, again I'm guessing, he is trying to determine exactly where the robbery is taking place based on initial reports. Once he realizes he's there, it appears he tries to get people to move away from the location while he draws his weapon and begins trying to get a clear view inside the store, likely while guessing again, waiting for backup. From the way he is bouncing up and down, and moving, it looks like his view must be at least partially obstructed. You can see him looking back and forth from the inside of the store to the perimeter, at a guess trying to keep people away from the danger and more likely looking for back up so he can make entry(I would be). His adrenaline is probably pegging full bore at this point, as the fight or flight response kicks in. Again, without knowing all the facts(you never do before something happens. Hindsight is always 20/20), he has responded to a reported armed robbery in progress possibly with multiple suspects, and while trying to get a view of the events unfolding inside the store, suddenly two men burst out of the doorway. Without having had the opportunity to make entry, clear the store and learn about the back door and the robbers moving in that direction, common sense would dictate that in an armed robbery of a small storefront, where he has been on scene for a minute during which time victims who could have, in all likelihood would have fled the scene; anyone moving at this point is likely the armed robbers coming back out the same way they went in. So when the first suspect exits, he covers him with his weapon, and is pivoting to his left to cover the suspect that is moving past him again guessing, looking at his hands for weapons. His heart rate was probably rocketing north fast, and his vision may have began to tighten(tunnel vision) so that he may not have even observed the second suspect. His pivoting to cover the first suspect exposes his right flank, where a second possibly armed suspect charging from the store aggressively(explosively, energetically) and makes contact with him and the shot results. At this point, the media has stated that it wasn't reported as an intentional discharge(as previously mentioned, we know their accuracy in reporting), which could have been articulated if he believed he was being attacked, a gun grab, ect. Was there some fear in reporting it as an intentional shooting, with all the coverage surrounding the bystanders being hit at the Empire State Building? What was said at line up over the last week referencing the previous shooting? Was he a Knight, or a Serf who stumbled in and got in over his head? Could it have been a startle response to the contact? Remember it happened while he was covering what a prudent man would believe to be an armed robber. As has been pointed out, there just isn't nearly enough information at this point, even with the silent video to make an informed decision. Once the investigation is concluded we'll have a much better understanding of this really tragic event, and but for the actions of the robbers, none of this would have occurred.

[djg0770 481]

From the video and ONLY from the video, it appears as though this is a complete and total accident. The LEO had unholstered his weapon PRIOR to "hostage 1" escaping, "hostage 2" was IMO running for his life and (probably) did not have his wits about him and did not even see the LEO until he smashed into him.

 

It appears to my untrained, monday morning quarterbacking eyes that it was a terrible accident, nothing more, nothing less. If we're to do an after action report, I think it would be STUPID to attempt to modify procedure - ie to make the LEO keep his weapon holstered until there was a clear and specific visible threat as I think this will merely result in MORE LEO deaths, and will likely not save one vicitm. I believe this truly was a one in a million accident with the blame centered entirely on the perps within the bodega - ONLY.

 

Something that I don't believe has been mentioned is that the bodega employees may not have spoken English well or at all. I don't see the LEO drawing down on "hostage 2" and issuing any commands, in fact it seems that both "hostage 2" and the LEO were unaware of the events that transpired until they were over.

 

JMHO monday morning quarterbacking a terrible accident.

[bhunted 887]

They just announced this morning, Kelly said so far it was an accident.

 

 

Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD

Typos courtesy Apple...

[Kaiser7 33]

http://news.yahoo.com/ny-police-accidentally-shoot-shop-worker-death-161129771.html

 

Another article on it.

 

Well, I think that we should bring this to Lautenberg and Bloomberg's attention. The criminals had a gun, which they used to rob the store. Where did they get a handgun? I thought that NY had strict gun laws to prevent this? What of the workers? Why couldn't they have a gun with which to defend themselves? Is it the assumption that the police would stop this crime? Well, we can clearly see that this, coupled with the two other incidents that occurred recently, that the NYPD seems to kill innocent bystanders and victims more frequently than they do criminals, so why not allow people to defend themselves?

[BlueLineFish 615]

http://news.yahoo.com/ny-police-accidentally-shoot-shop-worker-death-161129771.html

 

Another article on it.

 

Well, I think that we should bring this to Lautenberg and Bloomberg's attention. The criminals had a gun, which they used to rob the store. Where did they get a handgun? I thought that NY had strict gun laws to prevent this? What of the workers? Why couldn't they have a gun with which to defend themselves? Is it the assumption that the police would stop this crime? Well, we can clearly see that this, coupled with the two other incidents that occurred recently, that the NYPD seems to kill innocent bystanders and victims more frequently than they do criminals, so why not allow people to defend themselves?

 

From 2 situations you have deemed the NYPD more of a threat than criminals. One situation had terrible circumstances and this was an accident. This is truly an ignorant and assinine statement. You have some balls to discredit an entire dept because of two horrible events. I am holding back more comments in order for this to remain civilized.

[djg0770 481]

BLF - IMO you're being a bit thin skinned.

 

Kaiser's statement of "why not allow people to defend themselves" iMO is valid.

 

Certainly his inflammatory comments regarding killing innocent bystanders and victims are uncalled for, after all, unarmed Amadou Diallo needed to be shot 19 times... And Abner Louima was treated as any actor should be treated... The NYPD has a history of questionable tactics and bad apples. To claim otherwise is to ignore history.

 

My position on this latest shooting is clear - IMO entirely accidental.

 

So, why can't Joe Blow carry?? Right, cause "Cops" are better at protecting us than we are at protecting ourselves - sorry, that requires me to suspend reality and substitute Mayor Shitbergs logic, not gonna happen here.

[BlueLineFish 615]

I am all for an individuals ability to defend themselves. Its the other remarks that aggravate me.

[BarkNBite 15]

BLF...........nothing personal but you can't be responsible for or try to defend all LE in this matter.....they've made grave mistakes...IMO... and should be held absolutely accountable. Wearing a blue suit doesn't excuse their bad judgement and / or lack of training. This is not a "Union Thing" it's about letting people carry weapons who probably shouldn't be.

I've been a NRA Cert. Firearms Instructor, Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun, this my 21st year and have seen many who shouldn't be allowed to carry.....but the system lets them......doesn't mean they are safe. Training is everything.....so is Accuracy.

[BlueLineFish 615]

Everybody makes mistakes. You will also get bad apples when you are dealing with as many people as NYPD are. I always say i firmly believe people people should be able to defend themselves. But to say the cops are more of a threat than the criminals is insulting.

[bhunted 887]

I think that is the point BLF is trying to make. All too often in all these threads, the whole dept. is being scrutinized instead of just the few. I'm sure all the NYC cops should not be blanketed under the same statement. It frustrates me the same way... How come nobody ever brings up Kelly's name? Why isn't he ever a bad guy? Because he's not the one trying to write or overturn policy? So, no he can't defend all LE but neither can anyone else blame all LE either, yes/no? Fair statement?

 

BLF...........nothing personal but you can't be responsible for or try to defend all LE in this matter.....they've made grave mistakes...IMO... and should be held absolutely accountable. Wearing a blue suit doesn't excuse their bad judgement and / or lack of training. This is not a "Union Thing" it's about letting people carry weapons who probably shouldn't be.

I've been a NRA Cert. Firearms Instructor, Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun, this my 21st year and have seen many who shouldn't be allowed to carry.....but the system lets them......doesn't mean they are safe. Training is everything.....so is Accuracy.

 

 

Sent from John's iPad 2 via Tapatalk HD

Typos courtesy Apple...

[BarkNBite 15]

Kelly.........I just brought up his name.......so who is responsible for this lack of ability and bad judgement ?

The buck stops there............call him on it.

[djg0770 481]

to say the cops are more of a threat than the criminals is insulting.

 

Agree - However, the few bad cops that exist IMO are WORSE than the criminals.

[BlueLineFish 615]

Well its more the fact that they went against a code and broke a trust. That to me IS unforgiveable. Criminals are ...we'll... Criminals and expected to do bad things.

[BarkNBite 15]

So what Dept. oversees NY city police.........NYSP ?

[BlueLineFish 615]

No NYPD oversees themselves

[djg0770 481]

No NYPD oversees themselves

 

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Sounds like the congressional "oversight" committees. Otherwise known as "no Charlie Rangle, you don't have to pay your taxes".

[High Exposure 5,671]

So, who do you propose should "oversee" the worlds largest police department?

[PeteF 1,044]

So, who do you propose should "oversee" the worlds largest police department?

 

Not Napoleon and crew.

[Sig226GuyNJ 128]

That's interesting... Personally, I blame the assholes that decided to threaten a man and his employee at closing time with a gun (Reports state that the perps were armed with an unloaded .32ACP pistol) and try to take what he has worked for.

 

As far as a lack of training: Click Here http://njgunforums.c...ce-departments/ for a little insight.

 

 

 

What's your point? I read that article, and it only reinforces my belief that NYPD need more training.

[BlueLineFish 615]

So what Dept. oversees NY city police.........NYSP ?

 

Internal affairs and the office of the inspector general