Swat Called On Me Today....

[RedBowTies88 41]

Consider installing a lockable gate on the driveway or access road.

 

My access is also the access for the electric company to service the power lines that border the property, Therefore I can't really do anything to restrict access.

[Dan 177]

After thinking about this, it appears to be status quo for NJ. This state has been hostile towards gun owners for a very long time now. Recent events have further compounded their misguided justification (if you can call it that) for their behavior.

 

Regarding the young lady LE who was "scared to death" while drawing down on you... unfortunately there are many (not all of course) LE in this state who can't tolerate the thought of a law-abiding armed gun owner. They are conditioned by growing up in this state that a person with gun = bad guy. An example is how you often see high ranking police officers (cheifs, etc) backing up anti-gun laws that snakes its way into the assembly.

[GRIZ 3,369]

I had a funny feeling about shooting today... with everything that was going on on. My friend literally JUST picked up an m&p15 and wanted to try it out...so we loaded up and off to my range.

 

My range is on private property and is 40+ acres. I've been shooting there for years without incident...my juristiction has no laws against discharge. I've had the police to my range ONCE in all the years becuase they recieved a call. A single officer in a crown vic arrived checked my credientials and left me to my target practice.

 

Today..didn't go the same.

 

I'm parked at my range behind the bed of my truck where myself and a friend are loading magazines and i spot two officers approacing approx 75 yards away. I tell my friend and we put down everything we have and step away from the tailgate. The officers motion us to come towards them so we begin walking that way slowly.. I even yelled "hello" to them. They were just walking up in a casual manner.

 

 

we get to about 30 yards from them (again us walking casually toward them, and them walking casually toward us) and then they draw down on us and yell "hands up" very shorty after 3 more officers round the corner (about 50 yards from us) and draw down as well as 2 officers in full swat gear sporting m4 carbines. They get to about 10 yards ands tell us to turn around. I informed them this was private property and was told "don't give me any private property" what he meant exactly is still unsure. with hands up and facing away from them they (with guns still on us) ran our pockets and threw my keys, phone, empty pocket holster, as well as a few other belongs on the ground.

 

We stood that way for about 2 minutes until the prosecuter arrived. At wich point we were instructed to pick up our belongings and follow them over to the tailgate where the guns were.

 

on the tailgate sat (all unloaded luckily)

marlin 795

mosin nagant

ruger 22/45

polish p64

saiga (converted)

and my friends brand spanking new mp15

 

They asked us for id's and we supplied. at this point they realized the name on m LIC matched that's on the posted signs and their attitudes changed drastically.... from then on they were very nice. They asked us what we were doing and I replied target practice. They said they recieved a call of automatic fire and I assured them all our guns were legal and i told them they could fire them. They removed all the mags (man did they have a hard tim figuring out how to) wrote down all the serial numbers aqnd basically told us to have a nice day and left. The whole ordeal took maybe 30 minutes. They didn't fire any of our guns or check magazine capicity. (all were leagl of course)

 

They basically blamed it all on the events in CT... guess thats an excuse to violate your rights. All in all the only thing im upset about was them taking down my serial numbers.... thats really none of their busines. but since they were being nice i didn't give them a hard time...but i also didn't give them permission.

 

 

having many loaded guns pointed at you at once is not a fun thing... i really must say.

 

Police have every right to go on private property in the situation you describe to investigate a complaint. Google curtilage and open fields for SCOTUS decisions. Yes the cop was right in saying not to give him any private property stuff.

 

You should be glad local LE can get a SWAT response together so quickly. If you were a cop answering a call about FA weapons fire would you be comfortable with just your handgun? I think some agencies over use SWAT to justify their existence I don't think this is one of those situations.

 

Holding a gun on someone who still may be armed seems reasonable. As a LEO and in the military I have had friendllies hold guns on me until they ascertained who I was. Searching you to determine if you were still armed seems reasonable also. Examining the guns to see if they were FA is something they were entitled to do also. All the guns you listed could be converted to FA. I would have done function checks to determine this. If you are entitled to handling the gun you are entitled to see the serial number.

 

How do you know the one guy was the prosecutor? It said so on his raid jacket? I think you got a detective from the county prosecutor's office who happened to be in the area and backed these guys up.

 

You said their demeanor did a 180 when they determined who you were.

 

There isn't anything related showing the police did anything wrong.

 

If you want to contact the chief and relate what happened by all means do so. I would also ask him if in order to prevent it happening again suggest that perhaps you call the desk when you decide to shoot there. Not asking permission just letting them know to avoid confrontations. This is what we do at a friends place in NH.

 

 

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

... All the guns you listed could be converted to FA. ...

 

Really!? I'm curious, I'd like to see some bolt-action to FA conversions.

 

... I would also ask him if in order to prevent it happening again suggest that perhaps you call the desk when you decide to shoot there. Not asking permission just letting them know to avoid confrontations. This is what we do at a friends place in NH.

 

That seems completely reasonable.

[RedBowTies88 41]

I was told he was a prosecuter.... he was wearing a tie and collared shirt and dress shoes.

 

They never function checked any of my guns... honestly I doubt threy even would know how... they couldn't even get the damn magazines out with my help.

 

 

Also it is my understanding that the open fields bit doesn't apply to POSTED private wooded property. Im not a lawyer and i could be wrong but that was my understanding.

 

Basically you're saying it's ok to just draw your weapon on a peaceful citizen becuase they COULD be armed? without any proof they they are so..and on their own private property that is posted as such?

[woodentoe 14]

 

Basically you're saying it's ok to just draw your weapon on a peaceful citizen becuase they COULD be armed? without any proof they they are so..and on their own private property that is posted as such?

 

But, you're not peaceful. You own guns, right?

 

I think it bears mentioning that there is no law that forbids a person from carrying about their own property ANY firearm. That includes when the police come to call. Again, I'm not a LEO, and I respect the job completely. However, I equate the drawing of a weapon not with a willingness to shoot but an intent to shoot. If RBT88 wasn't in a threatening posture, even if he was armed, I fail to see how it is appropriate threat assessment to point a hot weapon at him.

 

I take zero issue with them being on the property, personally. They had a call that purported FA fire (incredibly unlikely, but whatever). They had PC to enter the property. But, they were on open ground, and not in a confined space while the subject is in plain sight. Giving instructions seems appropriate. Failure to follow instructions would escalate it. Remember, at the point of verbal contact they are 30 yards away, and they've already had visual non-verbal contact for a period of time.

 

Look, if this is proper protocol, so be it. But, if I've done nothing wrong and am in accordance with the law on my own property, I don't think it is appropriate for me to be staring at the business end of a hot gun.

 

In NJ, "When dealing with guns, the citizen acts at his own peril." I guess it is true.

[GRIZ 3,369]

 

 

Really!? I'm curious, I'd like to see some bolt-action to FA conversions.

 

Ok leave out the Mosin.

 

I was told he was a prosecuter.... he was wearing a tie and collared shirt and dress shoes.

 

They never function checked any of my guns... honestly I doubt threy even would know how... they couldn't even get the damn magazines out with my help.

 

 

Also it is my understanding that the open fields bit doesn't apply to POSTED private wooded property. Im not a lawyer and i could be wrong but that was my understanding.

 

Basically you're saying it's ok to just draw your weapon on a peaceful citizen becuase they COULD be armed? without any proof they they are so..and on their own private property that is posted as such?

 

Police can enter on posted private property if they are responding to a call or need to in the course of their duties. No they just can't wander on if they feel like it.

 

They saw guns there. Already they have confirmed there are guns involved. There is reason to believe you may still be armed. They are not sure you are a peaceful citizen. You said their demeanor changed as soon as you were identified. The private property issue has nothing to do with it.

[RedBowTies88 41]

 

Police can enter on posted private property if they are responding to a call or need to in the course of their duties. No they just can't wander on if they feel like it.

 

They saw guns there. Already they have confirmed there are guns involved. There is reason to believe you may still be armed. They are not sure you are a peaceful citizen. You said their demeanor changed as soon as you were identified. The private property issue has nothing to do with it.

 

"Guns involved" isn't probably cause for anything..gun are NOT illegal.. and It's NOT illegal to shoot them on your private property in a safe manner. They have no reaosn to believe I am armed ILLEGALLY it's perfectly legal for me to be armed on my own property. Draw weapons on me to check if I'm legally armed is not ok IMHO.

[BlueLineFish 615]

 

 

Police have every right to go on private property in the situation you describe to investigate a complaint. Google curtilage and open fields for SCOTUS decisions. Yes the cop was right in saying not to give him any private property stuff.

 

You should be glad local LE can get a SWAT response together so quickly. If you were a cop answering a call about FA weapons fire would you be comfortable with just your handgun? I think some agencies over use SWAT to justify their existence I don't think this is one of those situations.

 

Holding a gun on someone who still may be armed seems reasonable. As a LEO and in the military I have had friendllies hold guns on me until they ascertained who I was. Searching you to determine if you were still armed seems reasonable also. Examining the guns to see if they were FA is something they were entitled to do also. All the guns you listed could be converted to FA. I would have done function checks to determine this. If you are entitled to handling the gun you are entitled to see the serial number.

 

How do you know the one guy was the prosecutor? It said so on his raid jacket? I think you got a detective from the county prosecutor's office who happened to be in the area and backed these guys up.

 

You said their demeanor did a 180 when they determined who you were.

 

There isn't anything related showing the police did anything wrong.

 

If you want to contact the chief and relate what happened by all means do so. I would also ask him if in order to prevent it happening again suggest that perhaps you call the desk when you decide to shoot there. Not asking permission just letting them know to avoid confrontations. This is what we do at a friends place in NH.

 

Very well said. I couldn't agree more.

[RedBowTies88 41]

Very well said. I couldn't agree more.

 

 

So you're telling me, if you owned enough property to safely shoot on in your backyard and the same thing i described happend to you you would be just fine with that?

 

I guess i take staring down the barrel of a loaded gun more seriously then some..

[RedBowTies88 41]

Also in the real america where normal everyday folks like us can have CCW permit does that make it ok for officers to draw down on them everytime one of these citizens is stopped for a traffic voilation?.... using your reasoning it sure seems you think that way.

[BlueLineFish 615]

 

 

So you're telling me, if you owned enough property to safely shoot on in your backyard and the same thing i described happend to you you would be just fine with that?

 

I guess i take staring down the barrel of a loaded gun more seriously then some..

 

Yes. Proper protocols were followed. Gun runs means guns will be drawn. Visible guns mean guns will be at low ready if no immediate threat exists. What if you had something on you and made a move or what if you turned to run toward the guns. Until they had you in close and established you as a non threat, you were a threat. I have had friendlies draw on me during uncertainty. Did I get upset with them...no. Now they now you and the area the next time someone calls their response will certainly be different. This was a first response to a location after a national tragedy involving firearms. I think the reaction is understandable

[GRIZ 3,369]

 

 

"Guns involved" isn't probably cause for anything..gun are NOT illegal.. and It's NOT illegal to shoot them on your private property in a safe manner. They have no reaosn to believe I am armed ILLEGALLY it's perfectly legal for me to be armed on my own property. Draw weapons on me to check if I'm legally armed is not ok IMHO.

 

The police were called with a FA weapons complaint. They are illegal in NJ. The police need to determine if the guns you have are illegal in the scenario you related. It is illegal to be armed with FA weapons on private property in NJ.

 

I can understand you being upset. I related that in the military and as a LEO I've had friendlies point loaded guns at me too many times. I don't hold this against anyone as I would have done the same in the situation.

 

Again, once they determined who you were and your guns were legal they changed their attitude.

[RedBowTies88 41]

Then why did they wait till I was 30 yards away to draw? why not arrive with guns drawn? also this is NOT their first response to my property...its been a couple years but its NO SECERET that i shoot back there... its common knowledge by all those around and its never been an issue.

 

If draw weapons for such an even is "protocol" them in going to make it a point to express my extreme displeasure with such a breach of freedom and saftey when i speak with the cheif.

 

Like i said before... in other state regular people acrry guns all the time.. police dont draw down on them just becuase they "might" be armed..and they're encounters are generally not on private propert with obvious shooting range estabilished

[BlueLineFish 615]

Again...you have every right to express your displeasure. What doesn't bother me may bother you. That's fine.

[RedBowTies88 41]

The police were called with a FA weapons complaint. They are illegal in NJ. The police need to determine if the guns you have are illegal in the scenario you related. It is illegal to be armed with FA weapons on private property in NJ.

 

I can understand you being upset. I related that in the military and as a LEO I've had friendlies point loaded guns at me too many times. I don't hold this against anyone as I would have done the same in the situation.

 

Again, once they determined who you were and your guns were legal they changed their attitude.

 

So if i just randomly called the police while you were at whatever shooting range you use and said i heard machineguns...that gives them the right to roll up and hold you at gunpoint?

[RedBowTies88 41]

Again i want to point out, I'm not necassarily upset with the responding officers... but i am upset that this "protocol" that they followed is in place.

[woodentoe 14]

Visible guns mean guns will be at low ready if no immediate threat exists.

 

How can you first say proper protocol is followed and then state a contrary protocol?

 

RBT88 didn't say the officers drew their weapons at low ready and gave instructions. he said they pointed a hot weapon at him. Unless I misread his post. Doesn't on target, finger on trigger mean immediate threat? Could this possibly be a bit of red light fever? nervous in the service?

[RedBowTies88 41]

How can you first say proper protocol is followed and then state a contrary protocol?

 

RBT88 didn't say the officers drew their weapons at low ready and gave instructions. he said they pointed a hot weapon at him. Unless I misread his post. Doesn't on target, finger on trigger mean immediate threat? Could this possibly be a bit of red light fever? nervous in the service?

 

This is correct. Guns were HOLSTERED until they reached approx 30 years from us..at which point they were drawn and aimed directly at us...fingers on triggers.

[H.M. Murdock 0]

A complaint of "automatic" gun fire on private property is exigent circumstances to enter without a warrant? Smells funny but reminds me of something that happened to me.

 

My friend has property that we shoot on upstate (NY). We plink with a shotugn on one side of the property. A new neighbor recently moved in quite some distance away on a property bordering the other side of our property. They called the police on us a couple different times whenever we started shooting. The police responded to their property while we were still shooting and determined that we weren't too loud and nothing came of it.

 

The next time we were shooting the shotgun the neighbors thought it would be more effective to call the police with a story that we were shooting a rifle at their house. Much different response that time -- the county police entered our property but were sensible enough not to put a muzzle on us. All was well after they heard us out. Presumably these new neighbors came from the city and did not realize you hear gunshots regularly in rural areas. Be careful with these anti-gun folk. Instead of acclimating to the region they put our and the polices' lives in extreme danger by falsely reporting being shot at by a rifle. Still makes my blood boil when I think about it. Point being these Nazi bastards will stop at nothing to get their way including facilitating murder. And I think your new neighbor is saying hi.

[plode 0]

http://www.shorenews...properties.html

 

UPPER TOWNSHIP – Gun owners here said this week that the township should be careful in crafting an ordinance prohibiting gunfire near neighboring properties, voicing concerns that it could end the use of gun ranges in a township that is transitioning from rural to suburban.

The Gazette reported last week that Upper Township Committee is considering an ordinance that would prohibit firing a gun within a certain distance of neighboring properties. No exact minimum distance has been settled on yet.

The ordinance was discussed after Committeeman Tony Inserra said a party thrown by residents living on Rt. 50 was disrupted by gunfire near the property line.

State law prohibits hunting within 450 feet of an occupied home, but there is no state regulation of target shooting. Municipalities can enact ordinances regulating or prohibiting the discharge of firearms inside town limits.

Kris Wright, who has shot at a gun range at 7 McDaniels Court off Rt. 50 for 17 years, said she was firing at the gun range two weekends ago when neighbors hosting the party called the State Police. She and others firing their guns were not aware a party was going on, she said.

“We were completely unaware of the party,” said Wright. “We notify the State Police whenever we are going to be there in case someone is concerned and calls police. We tell the neighbors before we go out. We are there once a month for one hour. We try to be courteous.”

The gun range is more than 300 feet from the nearest occupied home, she said. The area is also wooded, which should muffle the sound, she said.

Inserra said last week that partygoers at the neighboring party thought there was automatic gun fire at the range. Wright said that was not the case, and that State Police checked all the weapons and cars of people using the gun range to make sure no automatic guns were present.

Assault firearms are illegal in New Jersey.

“We were firing handguns, 9mm, 40mm,” said Wright. “There were no automatic weapons but if two people were firing at once that could sound similar.”

Wright and other Upper Township gun owners posted responses to last week’s Gazette story at www.uppertownshipgazette.com. Most said they were concerned new regulations would make it difficult to fire at private gun ranges in Upper Township. Many of those gun ranges are being squeezed by development, said Wright.

Wright said she understands she will lose her gun range at McDaniels Court sometime soon. She recently subdivided a 15-acre lot off Rt. 50 where the gun range is located. When homes are built the gun range will be too close to use safely.

“I don’t need a law to tell me that,” she said.

But Wright said she worries new regulations would make other gun ranges in Upper Township illegal.

“I know and I understand I’m going to lose my range because of development,” said Wright. “But I don’t want restrictions to become so prohibitive that it completely forbids it.”

Mayor Richard Palombo said the township is not looking to ban guns or gun ranges. But there is a need for an ordinance that would make it illegal to fire guns near someone’s home or backyard, he said.

“I live in Beesleys Point, my nearest neighbor is 100 feet away,” he said. “You can’t have someone firing a gun that close to their neighbor’s backyard or house. That is a legitimate safety concern. Someone who has 12 acres is another story. We’re not going to stop someone from shooting there.”

Palombo said an ordinance could create a minimum distance of 400 or 450 feet for gun ranges, the same as the state’s hunting regulations, but nothing has been finalized yet. An ordinance could be introduced at township committee’s next meeting on Monday, Aug. 27 or on Monday, Sept. 10, he said.

Once an ordinance is introduced, there will be 30 days for written comment and a public hearing and final vote will then be held at a township committee meeting.

“Whatever we do, there will be opportunity for plenty of public input,” said Palombo. “If someone has a better idea on how to do this, and make it safe, I’m willing to listen.”

Wright said a 300 foot minimum distance from the nearest occupied home would work well for gun ranges in Upper Township.

“It’s not like hunting where you’re aiming at a moving target,” she said. “You’re not chasing something. There’s a backdrop you fire from a safe distance.”

She also said a dedicated gun range in the township would be a good thing.

“We have an astronomical amount of recreation for children in the township,” she said. “Maybe we could look at having something for gun owners, a place to shoot.”

[this_is_nascar 162]

You've consistantly said that you don't want to make an issue about this, but continue to go on-and-on about it. If it were me, I'd be pissed and would do something about it, small town or not. Start with the Chief of Police and address some of your concerns with him. See where that takes you and go from there.

[liquidskin 3]

 

“We were firing handguns, 9mm, 40mm,” said Wright. “There were no automatic weapons but if two people were firing at once that could sound similar.”

 

Holy cow, I can't blame the neighbors..

 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[PeteF 1,044]

Yes. Proper protocols were followed. Gun runs means guns will be drawn. Visible guns mean guns will be at low ready if no immediate threat exists. What if you had something on you and made a move or what if you turned to run toward the guns. I think the reaction is understandable

 

bs, bs and more bs.

 

Who came onto who's property unannounced and pointed loaded guns at who?

 

What if they weren't cops just bangers dressed to look like cops. Oh yeah that never happens.

 

So the boys in tactical black trespassed on private property (that they knew was used for shooting purposes).

 

My range is on private property and is 40+ acres. I've been shooting there for years without incident...my juristiction has no laws against discharge. I've had the police to my range ONCE in all the years becuase they recieved a call. A single officer in a crown vic arrived checked my credientials and left me to my target practice.

 

Aimed FA weapons at the owner of the property,

And proceded to yell at the owner who had done absolutely nothing wrong never mind illegal.

 

Get an F'ing clue

 

 

 

See the difference?

 

Proper way to handle situation

A single officer in a crown vic arrived checked my credientials and left me to my target practice, or even a phone call to the property to find if anyone is practicing today.

 

Wrong way

Jack booted thugs come up and threaten his life (Yes pointing loaded weapons at a person IS threatening his life)

[BlueLineFish 615]

Yeah ...send one officer to a gun run. That ever happens. Speak when you have a clue tough guy.

[RedBowTies88 41]

Thats exactly what happened.. one officer, one patrol car. no weapons drawn

[BlueLineFish 615]

Times have changed. Does it suck yes but times have changed.

 

[RedBowTies88 41]

This was less then 2 years ago...how much has really changed? besides temporary panic..

[rightisright 3]

Did they search the vehicle after they determined nothing was amiss? If there was no reasonable and articulable suspicion and you didn't consent, that's a big 4th Amendment no-no.

 

Then again, they do have to justify the usage of SWAT or those Homeland Security dollars will stop flowing....

 

Maybe next time they will roll up in a Bearcat w. a .50 cal aimed at you! Fun times!

[RedBowTies88 41]

its was after they asertained that I was the landowner and they were looking over my weapons