Question on NICS timeframes

[222 3]

 

 

that dealers dont really care as they are still selling guns ...and if it was them waiting for what they are after their attitudes might be different....when will the nics delay reach "unacceptable"? 2..3..4...6 months?

 

You seem to perceive a divergence of interests. I am not sure that is accurate.

 

How much business has NJ FFLs already lost in long gun sales because people would rather buy out of state? If Toomey-Manchin Amendment passes and we can buy handguns out of state, do you think NJ FFLs will sell another handgun again? Who will wait 2 months for a permit and another 3 weeks for NICS checks, when they can buy their Glock in Maryland or Pennsylvania?

 

If you think gun dealers don't care I think you are exactly wrong. They care a hell of alot more. This is their business, their livelihood, how they pay their employees and feed their families. You face an expired permit: they face losing their business.

 

There is a few dozen FFL gun dealers, and a million gun owners. They do a heck of alot more than just run their shops. Look at who runs the gun ranges, for private citizens and for LEOs. Look at who is on the boards of your local gun club. Running a business isn't a 9 to 5 40 hours a week, and they do stuff on top. This is their life: of course they care.

[pjd832 146]

ok..ill see you point..i perhaps assumed by the "oh well" attitudes at ffls about the ever growing wait they werent concerned...well when i actually got my turn to speak to one in the crowded shops....so then why are they not rattling cages?...and i didnt see in the mentioned amendment anything about doing away with in state only pistol purchases...

[222 3]

so then why are they not rattling cages?

There's only a few dozen of them, compared to a million of us. What can they do that we can't do?

 

Call NJSP and NJ NICS? Watch this video

 

Talk to Sweeney, Norcross and Greenstein? You can watch the video of all hundreds of people who showed up on Apr 30 and May 2, a dozen or so speakers said exactly that: NICS is suppose to be INSTANT. http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/media/archive_audio2.asp?KEY=SLP&SESSION=2012

 

 

i didnt see in the mentioned amendment anything about doing away with in state only pistol purchases...

 

T-M Amendment Page 29, line 17 to page 30 line 6.

 

922 (b) (3) currently states http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/44/922

 

 

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver -

 

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States)

 

So you are allowed to buy a long gun out-of-state, but not a handgun. After T-M Amendment:

 

 

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver -

 

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the licensee's place of business is located or temporarily located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any firearm to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located or temporarily located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in the State in which the transfer is conducted and the State of residence of the transferee (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States)

[KevD 0]

ok..ill see you point..i perhaps assumed by the "oh well" attitudes at ffls about the ever growing wait they werent concerned...well when i actually got my turn to speak to one in the crowded shops....so then why are they not rattling cages?...and i didnt see in the mentioned amendment anything about doing away with in state only pistol purchases...

 

I agree... They should either put together a team of investors to go to court or something ... Like was said its there livelihood ... So they should fight for it .. I have a business as well and the city was trying to raise taxes for my and various businesses in the area we joined forces and are taking it to court... It was also said they cant do anything we cant do but many of us are active .. Im apart of the nra, nj2as, anjrpc, and saf ... I guess in a large part its because i feel like THEY should do something... I take off of work for every rally and donate often... And at times i feel like nj2as anjrpc the nra and local shops dont do enough for our rights ... So saying they cant do anything we cant do i dont feel is totally true ... There whole day revolves around firearms... For me i only get to see my guns once a week when i go shoot ... And im still active in the "fight" for our rights ... If it was all i did all day or my livelihood depended on it i would fight tooth and nail for every inch they tryed to take.... Jus sayin.

[gunguy1960 2]

 

What have YOU done? What are you waiting for?

I have started people talking about this 3day issue, YOU are welcome.

[222 3]

 

They should either put together a team of investors to go to court or something ... Like was said its there livelihood ... So they should fight for it ..

 

 

Go ahead. Reason it out. Follow your own line of logic. You are the FFL, make out the civil lawsuit.

 

First: who do you sue?

Second: on what grounds?

 

Lets say you sue FBI on grounds of tortious interference of contractual relationship.

 

At best, judge rules government has rational basis to do background check, 3 days is not overly burdensome, and since the law gives FFL discretion to transact after 3 days, there is no tortious interference. You are out a couple of thousand dollars in filing and lawyer fees.

 

At worse, judge rules 3 days limit is not applicable, authorities can take as long as they like. That is what happened to NJ's 30 days for FID. So not only are you out a few thousand bucks, you just royally screwed over 100 million gun owners.

 

Be careful what you wish for.

[pjd832 146]

222... I didn't see that part before.... I was under the impression it was about family transfers etc... And I thought it got shot down around the 18th of April?

[KevD 0]

That seems to be the theme in nj ... Dont do anything because it could get worse... There is definitely grounds to sue due to the fact that the state and local police never follow the laws but we need something like them on tape saying its on purpose or something concrete... The FBI has nothing to do with this every other state NICS is still instant ... This is the state polices fault... Alil rocking the boat anyone anyone gunguy. Anyone. Lol ... This is jersey only criminals and welfare recipiants can fight for there rights us honest folk need to just sit down and know our place right? Hmmmm

[Nikos 31]

That seems to be the theme in nj ... Dont do anything because it could get worse... There is definitely grounds to sue due to the fact that the state and local police never follow the laws but we need something like them on tape saying its on purpose or something concrete... The FBI has nothing to do with this every other state NICS is still instant ... This is the state polices fault... Alil rocking the boat anyone anyone gunguy. Anyone. Lol ... This is jersey only criminals and welfare recipiants can fight for there rights us honest folk need to just sit down and know our place right? Hmmmm

 

NJ is also instant but it seems our FFLs are scared to follow the Federal laws. NJ chose to be a POC state and it's their own mess that they cannot respond "instantly" or within 3 days.

 

From what I've read thus far, I don't see why FFLs cannot legally transfer the firearm after the 3 days of not receiving a response from our NICS system.

[laabci 0]

NJ is also instant but it seems our FFLs are scared to follow the Federal laws. NJ chose to be a POC state and it's their own mess that they cannot respond "instantly" or within 3 days.

 

From what I've read thus far, I don't see why FFLs cannot legally transfer the firearm after the 3 days of not receiving a response from our NICS system.

 

It has been mentioned numerous times here - the 3 day period starts when the FFL receives a Pending response.

[BlueLineFish 615]

No..it's when they receive a "delayed" response. Most time you get no response which is why it can't be transferred until the approval comes

[222 3]

It has been mentioned numerous times here - the 3 day period starts when the FFL receives a Pending response.

 

Please cite your source.

Because we've already cited federal law, federal regulation, and FBI's own website that says that is untrue.

[222 3]

No..it's when they receive a "delayed" response. Most time you get no response which is why it can't be transferred until the approval comes

 

Please cite 1 piece of official instruction, from State or Federal authorities to 1 FFL, that says the 3 day count starts after the delayed response, and not after the FFL has submitted to the system.

 

Because using that 1 piece of official instruction, we have 2 basis for lawsuit:

1 - The instruction is contrary to federal law and federal regulations.

2 - The delay is tortious interference of contractual relationship.

 

Until then, it is just FFL discretion.

[67gtonut 847]

Is there a thread on this forum that does not turn into personal attacks.....

 

Children

 

This is going nowhere....

[Nikos 31]

So, I call the AGs office this morning to try and find some clarity concerning the increasing NICS delays and if our FFLs can exercise the 3 day rule.

 

Gentleman (LEO) answers the phone and when I begin to ask about the NICS delay, he interjects and starts rambling about the Connecticut school shooting, how NJ is slowing down the process to obtain permits to make us safer, etc.

[DLF 1]

So, I call the AGs office this morning to try and find some clarity concerning the increasing NICS delays and if our FFLs can exercise the 3 day rule.

 

Gentleman (LEO) answers the phone and when I begin to ask about the NICS delay, he interjects and starts rambling about the Connecticut school shooting, how NJ is slowing down the process to obtain permits to make us safer, etc.

 

I don't suppose that you recorded the conversation?

[Nikos 31]

I don't suppose that you recorded the conversation?

Conversation was not recorded - at least not at my end.

[RubberBullets 65]

So, I call the AGs office this morning to try and find some clarity concerning the increasing NICS delays and if our FFLs can exercise the 3 day rule.

 

Gentleman (LEO) answers the phone and when I begin to ask about the NICS delay, he interjects and starts rambling about the Connecticut school shooting, how NJ is slowing down the process to obtain permits to make us safer, etc.

This would have helped turn the AG's office on its side... vocally admitting that they are hindering law abiding citizens above and beyond the law "for our own good"

[222 3]

Is there a thread on this forum that does not turn into personal attacks.....

 

Children

 

This is going nowhere....

I sincerely apologize, to everyone I offended and to the moderators. My comment was offensive and I am sorry.

[laabci 0]

Please cite your source.

Because we've already cited federal law, federal regulation, and FBI's own website that says that is untrue.

 

28 CFR Part 25.6

 

... A “Delayed” response to the FFL indicates that the firearm transfer should not proceed pending receipt of a follow-up “Proceed” response from the NICS or the expiration of three business days ...

 

 

 

 

For me it was enough when PK90 said so.

[222 3]

28 CFR Part 25.6

 

... A “Delayed” response to the FFL indicates that the firearm transfer should not proceed pending receipt of a follow-up “Proceed” response from the NICS or the expiration of three business days ...

 

 

I'll buy that.

But Part 25.6 also says:

 

POCs shall transmit electronic NICS transaction determination messages to the FBI for the following transactions:

  - open transactions that are not resolved before the end of the operational day on which the check is requested;

  - denied transactions;

  - transactions reported to the NICS as open and later changed to proceed;

  - and denied transactions that have been overturned.

 The FBI shall provide POCs with an electronic capability to transmit this information. These electronic messages shall be provided to the NICS immediately upon communicating the POC determination to the FFL. For transactions where a determination has not been communicated to the FFL, the electronic messages shall be communicated no later than the end of the operational day on which the check was initiated. With the exception of permit checks, newly created POC NICS transactions that are not followed by a determination message (deny or open) before the end of the operational day on which they were initiated will be assumed to have resulted in a proceed notification to the FFL.

 

You can sue on grounds of: 

 - Violation that "open transactions that are not resolved before the end of the operational day on which the check is requested" 

 - Or violation of " For transactions where a determination has not been communicated to the FFL, the electronic messages shall be communicated no later than the end of the operational day on which the check was initiated." 

 

 

But suing based upon the interface between NJ NICS and FBI NICS presumes:

 - A gun buyer or an FFL is aware of the messaging interface and timestamping of messages between NJ NICS and FBI NICS

 - A gun buyer or an FFL has standing to claim damages based upon a violation in the interface between NJ NICS and FBI NICS

 

 

Where 25.6 uses the terms "open" "delayed" "proceed" and "denied", 25.2 defines the terms.  You already cited definition for Delayed, and its 3-day rule.  Here is the "open" definition and its 3 day rule.

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/25.2

Open means those non-canceled transactions where the FFL has not been notified of the final determination. In cases of “open” responses, the NICS continues researching potentially prohibiting records regarding the transferee and, if definitive information is obtained, communicates to the FFL the final determination that the check resulted in a proceed or a deny. An “open” response does not prohibit an FFL from transferring a firearm after three business days have elapsed since the FFL provided to the system the identifying information about the prospective transferee.

 

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/federal-firearms-licensees/a-nics-delay

 

 

“Open” means those non-canceled transactions where the FFL has not been notified of the final determination. In cases of “open” responses, the NICS continues researching potentially prohibiting records regarding the transferee and, if definitive information is obtained, communicates to the FFL the final determination that the check resulted in a proceed or a deny. An “open” response does not prohibit an FFL from transferring a firearm after three business days have elapsed since the FFL provided to the system the identifying information about the prospective transferee.

[laabci 0]

I'm no lawyer but to me an "open" response is still a response.

 

What's an FFL to do if he/she does not get any response ?

[222 3]

I'm no lawyer but to me an "open" response is still a response.

 

What's an FFL to do if he/she does not get any response ?

 

"Open" is not a response in the sense of an actual message FFLs will receive.

Actual messages FFL receives are "Proceed" "Denied" "Cancelled" and "Delayed", or some variation POC States uses.

"Open" are non-canceled, non-final transactions.  That is to say, all transactions, "Delayed" or otherwise, which are non-cancelled, non-final.

 

Form 4473, page 2, question 21c. http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

25.6 © (1) (iv) (A) "Proceed (B) "Delayed" © "Denied" http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/25.6

[jackandjill 683]

@222,  what IF, NJ folks never even "created a POC NICS Transaction" to begin with ?

So if you look at NJ transaction end-to-end as  

 

1. FFL To Fax

2. Fax To Pile

3. Pile to NJSP

4. NJSP to Local Checks

5. Local Checks to Fed NICS

6. Fed NICS responds

7. NJSP To FFL

 

I believe the FBI stuff you quoted applies only to #5 & #6. And I bet LARGE portion of current backlog is in 1 through 5. On purpose or for genuine reasons.

[222 3]

I believe the FBI stuff you quoted applies only to #5 & #6. And I bet LARGE portion of current backlog is in 1 through 5. On purpose or for genuine reasons.

 

I see what you mean.  But were that true, the laws and regulations would state:

 

922(t) (ii) 3 business days (meaning a day on which State offices are open) have elapsed since the FBI NICS received the request"

 

CFR 25.2 "three business days have elapsed since theFBI NICS received the request"

 

 

But the laws and regulations does not say that. It says:

922(t) (ii) 3 business days (meaning a day on which State offices are open) have elapsed since the licensee contacted the system,"

CFR 25.2 "three business days have elapsed since theFFL provided to the system"

 

 

What is "the system"?  Is the system FBI NICS?  Or is the system the whole NICS network?

 

"The system" was defined by Brady Bill in 1993.  The Brady Bill directed the Attorney General to build "The System".  In 1998, AG kicked if off, and we've been using it for 15 years.

 

"POC" wasn't a concept in original Brady Bill.  It was part of what FBI and AG built.  They took the Brady Bill language for 922(t) language and wrote CFR 25 Subpart A, NICS, which also defines POC.  POC is part of "The System."

 

 

(1) http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/poc

[jackandjill 683]

@222, Good points. But between Federal Licensing, State Licensing , POC definitions, NICS and State rights,  its interesting debate as to what constitutes the System.

[222 3]

Half way through that last post I felt like Morpheus describing The Matrix.