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[sof 0]

I need to get this off my chest. In Friday's Star Ledger there is an article about a Bloods member who shot and killed a LEO who he was attempting to rob. His plea bargained sentence? Aggravated manslaughter and robbery carrying a sentence of up to 39 years. Now, I know that the courts and prosecutors are swamped and the plea system helps to move the wheels along, but you read this crap in the same paper that is crusading for tougher gun laws and the irony never registers on these media nannys or the politicians.

As has been stated here and everywhere, the solution to the gun problem is not tougher laws, it's enforcing the ones on the books now. If you must add new laws, how about no bargaining or sentence reduction for any violent crime involving a firearm? Or even a committee heavily weighted with responsible gun users and pro 2nd amendment experts to craft a well thought out liveable system of limiting access by criminals because right now, the only thing I'm confident of is that our legislators will screw it up worse than it already is. Instead of portraying us as wild eyed cave men, let us show there are acceptible ways of ensuring our rights and increasing safety for all. Leave the law abiding citizen alone and protect him with some judicial teeth.

And, while I'm at it, why is the Ledger satisfied with one article that only addresses this tangentially without any sense of outrage, when they recently went three full weeks with a pro gun control article or op-ed piece about every single day?

There, I've ranted. Sorry!

[1563621 388]

I still don't understand why Bloods and crips even exist! I remember when the FBI went after the mafia whole hog! Put them completely underground. But these gangs just keep getting bigger and badder. Is it my imagination? Why are they not hammered. 3 strikes and life!.Now they get in and live like kings. Send them to GITMO. Now there is an idea. The obummer is calling for a closure again. His poor muslim buddies want to be tried in a civilian court?

[GRIZ 3,369]

The true irony of this is the guy will be out in 12-13 years unless he kills someone in prison.

[HODGIE 3]

I will take it one step further with this.

 

1. Any crime committed by a known documented member of a gang should automatically receive x2 the normal sentence. "Joe schmoe" robs a liquor store he get's 30 years, "Johnny crip" robs it he get's 60 years no questions asked Period.

 

2. My personal choice. All known gangs in the United States should be labeled as Home Terrorist organizations and treated as such. It should be without a doubt the Federal Governments responsibility to hunt down and exterminate these gangs through any means necessary. They should be hauled off to Guantanamo Bay and interrogated. They consider and call them self soldiers in a war against LE all others are citizens or innocents around them. They have terrorized communities across the nation turning people into shut in's. Many of them are from out of this country and run international crime and drug rings. They are responsible for the murders of thousands and kill without any feeling, remorse or regard. They call into the same class as pedophiles as far as I am concerned, they have chosen to be animals and deserve to be treated as such and have not earned the right to exist in a civil society.

 

 

 

Sounds Harsh, well yes but sometimes harsh is exactly what needs to be implemented in order to resolve an issue at it's core.

[Arbelest 29]

The problem is the justice system needs a total re-vamp including the juvenile side of things. This problems creates a viscous chain of police backing off on their job because they loose faith in the courts who should be prosecuting these criminals completely instead of letting them get off easy. Next the public gets pissed because crime goes way up and the police are not motivated to go above and beyond in stopping it since the courts don't really punish people for their crimes especially if their career criminals or gang members.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

It's not just the justice systems fault, our government keeps these guys in business. A lot of these gangs started in the prison system, and grew and got huge within them. The Barrio Azteca for example. They are fueled by the drug war in this country, and would not be in business otherwise. You want to put a hurt on gangs? it all about the money....

[HODGIE 3]

It's not just the justice systems fault,

 

Of course they are partly to blame, the original post is a perfect example. How many bleeding hearts out there feel that gang members are simply lost children who because of poverty or environment had no other options but to turn to gang life.How many parents of gang members out there blame the guns for their child's death or incarceration while never taking personal responsibility for raising their children.Then you will see the politicians parading them around like they were the victim of some ugly circumstance. When our justice system turned the prison system from incarceration and punishment to rehabilitation everything went down hill.

 

The Obama admin is now trying to blame the violence of the Mexican cartels on America, again making excuses for the violent actions of the Mexican people. As if to say if it were not for American guns and greed the poor Mexican youth would not turn to violence and crime. Which once again is a complete play in order to get the bleeding heart support. Without ever getting to the over underlying heart of the issue and somehow thinking it's us that needs to change our ways for Mexico to survive.

 

Cut off the drug supply to America and they will find another, kill it completely and they will just find something else too deal in. We can take lessons from EU and how they run their prison systems they are for punishment only no ged's no job training no money earning, no smuggling, no sex scandals, no prison riots, hell they cannot even sleep, sit or lay down during the day depending on what you are in for.

 

All you get there is fed and locked up.

[Arbelest 29]

When our justice system turned the prison system from incarceration and punishment to rehabilitation everything went down hill.

 

 

Exactly, you can't have your punishment system reward you with payment for working on the inside or getting GEDs and Master degrees while incarcerated. We need more Joe Arpaio's in this country so jails become jails again.

[GRIZ 3,369]

I will take it one step further with this.

 

1. Any crime committed by a known documented member of a gang should automatically receive x2 the normal sentence. "Joe schmoe" robs a liquor store he get's 30 years, "Johnny crip" robs it he get's 60 years no questions asked Period.

 

2. My personal choice. All known gangs in the United States should be labeled as Home Terrorist organizations and treated as such. It should be without a doubt the Federal Governments responsibility to hunt down and exterminate these gangs through any means necessary. They should be hauled off to Guantanamo Bay and interrogated. They consider and call them self soldiers in a war against LE all others are citizens or innocents around them. They have terrorized communities across the nation turning people into shut in's. Many of them are from out of this country and run international crime and drug rings. They are responsible for the murders of thousands and kill without any feeling, remorse or regard. They call into the same class as pedophiles as far as I am concerned, they have chosen to be animals and deserve to be treated as such and have not earned the right to exist in a civil society.

 

 

 

Sounds Harsh, well yes but sometimes harsh is exactly what needs to be implemented in order to resolve an issue at it's core.

 

I agree with you in principle but this can't happen. There's plenty of talk on this forum regarding the Constitution but some don't realize it applies to all. Nothing illegal about being a member of a gang. Committing crimes is. Should we say if you're a Baptist, a Black Muslim, or belong to the Moose Lodge you should get twice the penalty? Sure, not quite the same thing but you see my point?

 

Double sentences for gang members most likely wouldn't pass the 8A test either. Double a sentence because the defendant is a member of a group? I seriously doubt SCOTUS would let that fly.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not for coddling criminals and think they should bring back dungeons. Many more crimes should get the death penalty AFAIC. But i also realize it can't happen.

[illy 1]

Now, I know that the courts and prosecutors are swamped and the plea system helps to move the wheels along,

 

With all the $ that our governments spend on BS, under-funding of a fundamental hallmark of democracy- a well functioning judicial system- is inexcusable.

 

I still don't understand why Bloods and crips even exist! I remember when the FBI went after the mafia whole hog! Put them completely underground.

 

Ethnically connected (italian, jewish, russian, mexican, chinese, etc) organized crime still exists, but they're just not as 'big-time' as the mafia once was.

[Soju 153]

I bet if they decided to stop prosecuting the half a million plus non-violent drug offenders the system wouldn't be so clogged and the prisons wouldn't be overcrowded. But nah...those for profit, private prisons wouldn't make as much money, and therefore the politicians who get money from them/their lobbyists wouldn't make as much money. Can't have that now.

 

Real crime doesn't pay.

[Albanian 121]

When our justice system turned the prison system from incarceration and punishment to rehabilitation everything went down hill.

 

Depends strongly on the crime. Usually rehabilitation is far more optimal than punishment. It has to be done right though. Our country does not focus on rehabilitation. They do some ridiculous mix that doesn't do jack shit. That and we have over crowding in prisons because of our ridiculous drug war.

[smoe_picka 0]

The answer you seek is public execution.

[HODGIE 3]

I agree with you in principle but this can't happen. There's plenty of talk on this forum regarding the Constitution but some don't realize it applies to all. Nothing illegal about being a member of a gang. Committing crimes is. Should we say if you're a Baptist, a Black Muslim, or belong to the Moose Lodge you should get twice the penalty? Sure, not quite the same thing but you see my point?

 

Double sentences for gang members most likely wouldn't pass the 8A test either. Double a sentence because the defendant is a member of a group? I seriously doubt SCOTUS would let that fly.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not for coddling criminals and think they should bring back dungeons. Many more crimes should get the death penalty AFAIC. But i also realize it can't happen.

 

That's why they need to be declared as a terrorist organizations.

 

However the Federal Government also has law's like the RICO act which allows them to prosecute anyone known to be in a organization for the crime that only 1 member may have committed, this is how the Italian Mafia was halted in their tracks and all the Boss's and under bosses were arrested tried and incarcerated. Most did not commit the crimes they were charged for but it was linked to because they were directly in charge or members of a criminal organization. It also

gives harsher penalties for a crimes committed by a member of a criminal organization then it would a common crook who is non affiliated.

 

So yes it can and has happened, they just have not screwed with or taken enough from the federal government like

the Mafia did with billions of tax dollars, control of the ports and union workers.

 

 

Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, commonly referred to as the RICO Act or simply RICO, is a United States federal law that provides for extended criminal penalties and a civil cause of action for acts performed as part of an ongoing criminal organization. The RICO Act focuses specifically on racketeering, and it allows the leaders of a syndicate to be tried for the crimes which they ordered others to do or assisted them, closing a perceived loophole that allowed someone who told a man to, for example, murder, to be exempt from the trial because he did not actually do it.

[GRIZ 3,369]

I bet if they decided to stop prosecuting the half a million plus non-violent drug offenders the system wouldn't be so clogged and the prisons wouldn't be overcrowded. But nah...those for profit, private prisons wouldn't make as much money, and therefore the politicians who get money from them/their lobbyists wouldn't make as much money. Can't have that now.

 

Real crime doesn't pay.

 

Poorest excuse for drug legalization going. First of all, rarely does a casual user get jail time unless they have some weight in their possession. If there were no consumers there would be no drug business.

 

If drugs were legalized do you think those violent people that are everywhere in the business would go away? You really think the gangbanger is going to clean up his act, get a PHD and become a rocket scientist?

 

There are evil people in the world who will always be evil.

 

That's why they need to be declared as a terrorist organizations.

 

However the Federal Government also has law's like the RICO act which allows them to prosecute anyone known to be in a organization for the crime that only 1 member may have committed, this is how the Italian Mafia was halted in their tracks and all the Boss's and under bosses were arrested tried and incarcerated. Most did not commit the crimes they were charged for but it was linked to because they were directly in charge or members of a criminal organization. It also

gives harsher penalties for a crimes committed by a member of a criminal organization then it would a common crook who is non affiliated.

 

So yes it can and has happened, they just have not screwed with or taken enough from the federal government like

the Mafia did with billions of tax dollars, control of the ports and union workers.

 

I worked as a Federal LEO for almost 30 years. RICO and conspiracy statutes have been used against gang members for some time now. A major component in proving crimes under RICO is the knowledge. Not as easy as you think. That's why John Gotti couldn't get convicted until the FBI set up a wire tap where his lawyer could be called as a witness.

 

There is also an issue of manpower. With all the other crimes they enforce no agency can afford to send enough agents or officers to a gang task force long enough to eliminate gangs. A lot of federal agencies are having enough trobule finding money to buy gas for their cars now.

 

I can guarantee you the "Mafia" has not been eliminated. Go try and set up yout own numbers operation in Brooklyn if you think so. Try to commit some crime on the docks in NY or NJ without getting a visit from someone. They also legitimized themselves with businesses like construction, labor unions, and the like.

[HODGIE 3]

I can guarantee you the "Mafia" has not been eliminated. Go try and set up your own numbers operation in Brooklyn if you think so. Try to commit some crime on the docks in NY or NJ without getting a visit from someone. They also legitimized themselves with businesses like construction, labor unions, and the like.

 

I actually am from Brooklyn as were my parents, there is mafia or organized crime but it's no where near what it used to be. Areas like Bay ridge are now multi national neighborhoods it is more Russian then anything else there now running things, same goes with Brighten beach and Bensonhurst. Staten Island still has things there but the hay day of the Don's is over.

 

I got a guy who is a slime ball that I work with on Friday, Sat, Sun he runs illegal poker games from one of his rental properties in LI and Brooklyn something he said he would have never been able to do 15 years ago. Even Gotti himself said the Federal Government will be withing within 20 years that they left the Italian Mafia alone because the who that will move in after they are gone is going to be much worse since it will all be international crime syndicates from Russia, China, and South America and that's exactly what we got. Human trafficking, Prostitution, drugs, and weapons.

 

Small world too My brother is actually a Federal Agent now along with my Cousin they just don't work for the FBI.

 

Back too the subject, at hand I hold the local PD, and Federal Government personally responsible for all of this. Once Regan shut down the issues with Miami, LA then blew up and everyone turned a blind eye too it forgetting how Miami turned into a complete cesspool. We pay taxes for specific things and one is to protect America and the American way of life, It appears that they have forgotten this or they are just really bad at it as we have seen with the antics of the Boston Bombings. Throwing money at this issue will not resolve anymore then ignoring it. Addressing it head on will be the only way and let's face it no one wants to announce a war on Black or Brown street gangs it's just bad press for any politician who would do that. So they leave it up to the local PD's to deal with it and when they do with extreme force like it should be they get labeled racist and corrupt like the LAPD.

[Soju 153]

Poorest excuse for drug legalization going. First of all, rarely does a casual user get jail time unless they have some weight in their possession. If there were no consumers there would be no drug business.

 

If drugs were legalized do you think those violent people that are everywhere in the business would go away? You really think the gangbanger is going to clean up his act, get a PHD and become a rocket scientist?

 

Where did I say anything about that? Maybe you misunderstood, because I certainly didn't say anything about drug dealers becoming doctors, or users stopping. That is absurd. Heck, I didn't even say ANYTHING about legalizing drugs. What post did you read?

[GRIZ 3,369]

Where did I say anything about that? Maybe you misunderstood, because I certainly didn't say anything about drug dealers becoming doctors, or users stopping. That is absurd. Heck, I didn't even say ANYTHING about legalizing drugs. What post did you read?

 

You said:

 

I bet if they decided to stop prosecuting the half a million plus non-violent drug offenders the system wouldn't be so clogged and the prisons wouldn't be overcrowded.

 

Stop prosecuting non-violent drug offenders sounds like legalization to me. What does it sound like to you?

 

There are a lot of what you call non-violent drug offenders who just so happen to have been caught dealing drugs not for the drive bys andother violence they've done.

 

No you didn't say anything about drug dealers becoming doctors but there are many naive people who think those who do violence will just go away if we legalize drugs.

[Soju 153]

You said:

 

I bet if they decided to stop prosecuting the half a million plus non-violent drug offenders the system wouldn't be so clogged and the prisons wouldn't be overcrowded.

 

Stop prosecuting non-violent drug offenders sounds like legalization to me. What does it sound like to you?

 

 

It sounds like stop prosecuting non-violent drug offenders as opposed to legalizing drugs. I'm not sure what I am missing.

 

There are a lot of what you call non-violent drug offenders who just so happen to have been caught dealing drugs not for the drive bys andother violence they've done.

 

That doesn't sound very non-violent to me.

[GRIZ 3,369]

 

 

It sounds like stop prosecuting non-violent drug offenders as opposed to legalizing drugs. I'm not sure what I am missing.

 

 

 

That doesn't sound very non-violent to me.

 

So we don't legalize we just stop prosecuting? We just don't enforce those laws? Which ones? Simple possession? Possession with Intent? Distribution?

 

So it doesn't sound very non-violent to you but someone I described in what you quoted id categorized as a "non-violent drug offender" as he was not convicted of any violent crime. If you shoot someone for interfering with your drug business and are never arrested for it but are arrested and convicted of distribution only you are classed as a non-violent offender.

[Soju 153]

So we don't legalize we just stop prosecuting? We just don't enforce those laws? Which ones? Simple possession? Possession with Intent? Distribution?

 

So it doesn't sound very non-violent to you but someone I described in what you quoted id categorized as a "non-violent drug offender" as he was not convicted of any violent crime. If you shoot someone for interfering with your drug business and are never arrested for it but are arrested and convicted of distribution only you are classed as a non-violent offender.

 

I'd have to wonder why they aren't being prosecuted for that, but I can imagine there are valid reasons like lack of evidence and whatnot, but those certainly aren't the type of individuals I was referring to. I think it is safe to say the gang banger thugs who get busted on drug charges are usually relatively easily distinguishable from the hippy stoner type who's biggest crime is eating all his friends food. And come on, I find it hard to believe that the 500,000 people in prison for drug charges are all violent criminals.

 

Unjust laws are not laws and should not be enforced.

 

On the other hand, you have examples like this, in which people trafficking money for drug cartels (presumably) don't even get arrested.

 

[GRIZ 3,369]

I'd have to wonder why they aren't being prosecuted for that, but I can imagine there are valid reasons like lack of evidence and whatnot, but those certainly aren't the type of individuals I was referring to. I think it is safe to say the gang banger thugs who get busted on drug charges are usually relatively easily distinguishable from the hippy stoner type who's biggest crime is eating all his friends food. And come on, I find it hard to believe that the 500,000 people in prison for drug charges are all violent criminals.

 

Unjust laws are not laws and should not be enforced.

 

On the other hand, you have examples like this, in which people trafficking money for drug cartels (presumably) don't even get arrested.

 

 

So you propose that ethnic origin, social status, and where you live be the determining factor in prison sentencing? That is unjust. Unjust application of law is what shouldn't be tolerated. I can't speak for all states but federal sentencing guidelines are based on what a person did. Not all those in prison for drug offenses have committed a violent act but all illegal drugs have been touched by violence or the threat of violence somewhere along the line.

 

I can't speak for the law in TN but those truck drivers would have been charged under the Federal system. If you give somebody up or otherwise assist an investigation you can get time off your sentence but no one negotiates to zero time. The way I understand your idea these truck drivers shouldn't be prosecuted. They didn't do any violence did they?

[Soju 153]

So you propose that ethnic origin, social status, and where you live be the determining factor in prison sentencing? That is unjust. Unjust application of law is what shouldn't be tolerated. I can't speak for all states but federal sentencing guidelines are based on what a person did. Not all those in prison for drug offenses have committed a violent act but all illegal drugs have been touched by violence or the threat of violence somewhere along the line.

 

I can't speak for the law in TN but those truck drivers would have been charged under the Federal system. If you give somebody up or otherwise assist an investigation you can get time off your sentence but no one negotiates to zero time. The way I understand your idea these truck drivers shouldn't be prosecuted. They didn't do any violence did they?

 

You are losing me. If you cannot recognize some of the differences between a drug dealing thug and a hippy, I'm not sure what else to say. I also didn't mention anything of ethnicity or social status. You chose to make that conclusion. But if you'd like to ignore the elephant in the room, that there is a certain category of people who are far and away more involved in the drug dealing gang banging life, knock yourself out. It exists.

 

I can't speak for TN law either. I was simply showing an example.

[GRIZ 3,369]

You are losing me. If you cannot recognize some of the differences between a drug dealing thug and a hippy, I'm not sure what else to say. I also didn't mention anything of ethnicity or social status. You chose to make that conclusion. But if you'd like to ignore the elephant in the room, that there is a certain category of people who are far and away more involved in the drug dealing gang banging life, knock yourself out. It exists.

 

I can't speak for TN law either. I was simply showing an example.

 

I know the difference between a drug dealing thug and a drug dealing hippie. There is a difference of social status between a thug and a hippie. Drug dealing thugs are usually latino or black and drug dealing hippies are usually white. Ignoring that is ignoring fact. I spent nearly half my life working in drug enforcement and I have seen the elephant and you are looking at the flea. I am well aware of the drug dealing gang banging type and arrested and saw go to prison quite a few.

 

The drug dealing hippie is a very small population in the prison system. Those that are there have been involved in distribution and/or manufacture belong there. If you think they do not you are entitled to your opinion but they are in prison because the law says so.

 

If you desire drug dealing hippies be exempt from prosecution from all drug laws campaign for that. Good luck.

[Soju 153]

1/3 of all states have decriminalized marijuana, so whether you agree or not, my notion of not prosecuting non-violent drug offenders is at least somewhat substantiated. With that said...

 

Now that you have sufficiently misrepresented my initial post, and that we both have sufficiently derailed this thread, I'm going to bow out.

[johnp 45]

I think more good could be done for society if we explored solutions other then just saying "drugs are bad". One of those solutions could be decriminalizing possession and the usage of drugs.

[GRIZ 3,369]

1/3 of all states have decriminalized marijuana, so whether you agree or not, my notion of not prosecuting non-violent drug offenders is at least somewhat substantiated. With that said...

 

Now that you have sufficiently misrepresented my initial post, and that we both have sufficiently derailed this thread, I'm going to bow out.

 

I thought we were talking of drugs in general. Marijuana was not mentioned until this post.

 

No misrepresentation needed.

 

Back to topic.

 

One avenue that hasn't been mentioned is this guy could have given something up. To get the plea he did.

 

Not that I agree with it but he better have given up a lot

[sof 0]

This thread has taken a very unexpected turn. It's a very interesting read... Wonder what it means?