NJ man approaches police, they confiscate his guns...

[Barms 98]

Not only 20 pages.... But 20 pages about "someone following him" the things you say CAN indicate you are potentially an immediate threat.... Do something off the wall like babble about people following you in a 20 page story... And it's a good indication you might be a little over the edge.... Take the guns... Evaluate... And if not a threat return immediately...

Agreed 100%. And it's stupid it make a hypothetical because he INDEED brought it upon himself. My worry is the newspaper article says "police respond to domestic dispute and 3 shotguns, 2 assault rifles and 4 pistols and 1000 rounds of ammo sized". Not faulting the police that's the law with a DD. it's the newspaper villification that would suck. Sure get your stuff back but you are toast in the public eye now

 

I dont want a hobby to have that downside. And I will drop this now because I don't want this to drift about gun owners hiding their stuff. But I truly think the discussion about this guys stuff on display was an eye opener for me. Along with other past topics thats why I love this forum

[jrfly3006 42]

I think we all can agree that pictures of this gentlemen's collection were inappropriate..no argument here..(I would love to know whose idea that was)...I also think its not out of the realm of proper action that this mans behavior warranted a seizure of weapons until a clean bill of health is issued..at which time his collection would be returned ASAP.. The man initiated contact..police went the proper route of getting him medical attention, obtaining a warrant and in their own words keep said weapons for safekeeping pending outcome of mental health assessment..yes the pictures are wrong..but I would love to know the town government's role in the release of these pictures...police management answer directly to the mayor and council and its not out of the realm of possibility that the govt pushed for some good PR..

In the end isn't this what was pushed for in lieu of new gun laws ?..."fix the mental health system" was the battle cry when new gun laws were pushed...it seems here it worked...stop the person before they do something....in most of the more recent mass shootings the common denominator was a mental health flaw...so why would we be surprised when an LE agency takes the steps taken here...

[carguy3j 0]

Not only 20 pages.... But 20 pages about "someone following him" the things you say CAN indicate you are potentially an immediate threat.... Do something off the wall like babble about people following you in a 20 page story... And it's a good indication you might be a little over the edge.... Take the guns... Evaluate... And if not a threat return immediately...

I mean, I guess you're right, but on the other hand, 20 pages of scribbled tightly packed rambling is different then 20 pages, neatly type, double spaced, with a lot of relevant details, as well as legal citation/references,etc... I mean, I was robbed (burgled? - stuff taken from garage while I wasn't home) a couple years back, and I EASILY got to 3 pages on my statement; between my "account" of what happened, and detailing what was missing, what it was worth, and how to identify. This wasn't a ton of stuff, no legal citation (which get pretty "long-winded" fast- see your own FAQ),etc... And, I felt like I could have said much, much more, but my hand was getting tired.

 

"Take the guns... Evaluate... And if not a threat return immediately..."

Sounds ok, in theory. However, we both know its very unlikely he'll ever see any of that stuff again, even if turns out he did absolutely nothing wrong. This would be a whole 'nother conversation, but just look into how screwed up/corrupt the whole civil forfeiture/seizure process is. In many states, there is no law requiring they return your stuff, even if you are found to have done nothing wrong. In others, technically, there is a process to recover your belongings, but it is so convoluted, time consuming, and costly, with minimal chance of success, that most people can't afford to even try. And, sadly, that's the point. Agencies, at every level of government, are building their budgets around asset seizures, and other questionable means of raising "revenue". Its theft on a massive scale, undertaken under the color of law.

 

 

 

I dont know that the focus should be on "hiding guns" (though in NJ, its seems like thats what its come to).

 

The focus, IMHO, is that it should be much more difficult to confiscate guns.

 

 

 

Not just NJ.....

 

True, but its an uphill battle. In the meantime, it IS much more difficult to confiscate what they can't find.

 

I, for one, appreciate BLF’s comments. I have no LEO friends or acquaintances, and so I find his views and opinions valuable in understanding how LEOs think, how they've been trained, and what their expectations are. I think it’s important to understand their viewpoint, because sooner or later you are going to need to deal with them, and I’d rather do so with some knowledge, especially knowing what the “triggers” are.  

 

True, Counter-Intelligence is valuable..... Can't hurt to know what we are up against.

 

Isn't it sad that WE, the people, have to have the least bit of concern about what might "trigger" THEM to turn against us? Why should we have to "walk on eggshells"? They should be concerned about how we will perceive them. They should be worried about losing their job if they mistreat, or are dis-respectful to US.

[carguy3j 0]

I think we all can agree that pictures of this gentlemen's collection were inappropriate..no argument here..(I would love to know whose idea that was)...I also think its not out of the realm of proper action that this mans behavior warranted a seizure of weapons until a clean bill of health is issued..

Ok, maybe. Depending on what was in the letter. Keep in mind, weird/odd/anti-social,etc... do not automatically equal threat to society/ justification for putting the guy through all this. As much as my curiosity is peaked, to ask or hope for the release of this letter would be a bit hypocritical on my part, unless the man himself chose to do so. We'll probably never have the full story here.

 

at which time his collection would be returned ASAP..

Will they???? That's the $64K question. See my prior comments on asset seizure/forfeiture. This is something we really need to follow up on when ever this is resolved.

 

The man initiated contact..police went the proper route of getting him medical attention, obtaining a warrant and in their own words keep said weapons for safekeeping pending outcome of mental health assessment..

Without seeing the letter, or knowing the man, I will give them the benefit of the doubt up to this point.

 

yes the pictures are wrong..but I would love to know the town government's role in the release of these pictures...police management answer directly to the mayor and council and its not out of the realm of possibility that the govt pushed for some good PR..

And this is when the officers/chief involved are supposed to "man up" and tell the mayor "NO" "Sorry sir/maam, but we answer to the people, and it would be inappropriate, unethical, unprofessional, and quite possibly illegal. These pieces of potential evidence are being logged and locked up in the evidence locker. If you or your people attempt to access them, or allow reporters in to view or photograph them, then its silver bracelets for all (including said mayor) for evidence tampering and obstruction of justice. Further, given the mental health implications of this matter, if you divulge any potentially sensitive medical details to the press, we will refer the matter to the appropriate authorities, regarding HIPPA violations"

 

 

In the end isn't this what was pushed for in lieu of new gun laws ?..."fix the mental health system" was the battle cry when new gun laws were pushed...it seems here it worked...stop the person before they do something....in most of the more recent mass shootings the common denominator was a mental health flaw...so why would we be surprised when an LE agency takes the steps taken here...

Maybe, but if it turns out they over-reacted, and ruined this guys life, it will act as a deterrent to any future individuals seeking help. Even if they were completely justified in the confiscation, and bringing him to the hospital, the act of publicly "outing" him, via the press conference and public display of his guns, is, in itself, a deterrent.

While I am all for transparency in law enforcement, why exactly did the world need to know about this?- especially before it has even been determined if he was actually a threat?

[Malice4you 627]

Maybe the 20 pages are documentation that someone is really following him, and his visit to the police was to apply for a concealed carry permit..?

 

In NJ, that act would likely be enough to get you sent away as crazy...

 

"You... want to........ protect yourself?  In public...???  With a gun!?!?!?!  And this 20-page hand-written document here is your 'proof?'  ......We're going to need you to do a 72 hour psych eval, pal...you must be crazy..."

[jrfly3006 42]

Will they???? That's the $64K question. See my prior comments on asset seizure/forfeiture. This is something we really need to follow up on when ever this is resolved.

 

 

I'm not so sure LE agencies in NJ are in the business of selling gun collections and ammo for asset forfeiture purposes...if they aren't claimed I'm pretty sure they're gonna be destroyed..so no... Your point of the agency taking guns to make money is off base..

[JackDaWack 2,895]

i think it's safe to say that not one of us knows what was written... and i think it's pretty safe to say this has been completely blown out of proportion. Did the cops look into his story at all? or they just figured he was a nut job? Depending on the type of person you are or the line of work you perform it may seem completely sensible to put together detailed accounts and use it as a means to support your position.. The idea is not to include opinion but just facts about observations. 20 pages could be anything.. it could be 20 separate accounts with varying detail... or it could be a 20 page manifesto about this guys delusions..

[BlueLineFish 615]

i think it's safe to say that not one of us knows what was written... and i think it's pretty safe to say this has been completely blown out of proportion. Did the cops look into his story at all? or they just figured he was a nut job? Depending on the type of person you are or the line of work you perform it may seem completely sensible to put together detailed accounts and use it as a means to support your position.. The idea is not to include opinion but just facts about observations. 20 pages could be anything.. it could be 20 separate accounts with varying detail... or it could be a 20 page manifesto about this guys delusions..

thats exactly right..its just that people.jump to conclusions without knowing all the facts. When i point out the other side of the equation i am an arrogant asshole. Whatever. Have to look at where its coming from