CCW in your business in NJ

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

It doesn't say business. 2C:39-6 says place of business. 

 

...

 

Just because they included the word "business" for 39-6 and didn't include it in 39-3 doesn't make "business" a prohibited place to possess hollow points.  A business on  "land owned or possesed" is a legal place to possess hollowpoints by a business owner IMO.

[ryan_j 0]

Just because they included the word "business" for 39-6 and didn't include it in 39-3 doesn't make "business" a prohibited place to possess hollow points. A business on "land owned or possesed" is a legal place to possess hollowpoints by a business owner IMO.

Again, nobody knows until we have a test case. The Aitken case surprised everyone when it was found out that you can't move hollow points from one home to another.

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

Again, nobody knows until we have a test case. The Aitken case surprised everyone when it was found out that you can't move hollow points from one home to another.

 

By your reasoning, anything that is not specifically allowed is "unknown until we have a test case".

 

Aitken claimed he was "moving", but he was actually driving around for multiple days with the firearms/magazines/ammunition in his car, not just directly from one home to another.

 

Edit - also, more than likely if Aitken didn't have the "high cap" magazines, then the "add on" charge of hollowpoints wouldn't have been made.

[ryan_j 0]

By your reasoning, anything that is not specifically allowed is "unknown until we have a test case".

Pretty much. That is how it works in nj.

[kman 56]

By your reasoning, anything that is not specifically allowed is "unknown until we have a test case".

 

That's actually how NJ's laws are set up.  Most states tell you what is illegal, i.e. they set forth what you cannot do.

 

NJ is the opposite - read the statute - the NJ Code bans firearms and hollow points ENTIRELY.  Then NJ provides certain very specific circumstances by statute where you are exempt from the ban.

 

So literally in NJ whatever is not specifically allowed by the law is absolutely forbidden.

 

Moral of the story:  forget about hollow points.  Too much of an issue in this state.  Would be nice to have them but not worth it.  Get flat point or FMJ, and then spend your time trying to figure out the laws governing the firearm.  If you try to understand the rules on hollow points, you will go nuts.  And cops will go nuts when they see hollow points on you or in your car because they don't understand the law and they don't need to either - they can just arrest you - and "let the courts straighten it out".  Cops will even go nuts if they find hollow points in your house.  Because the law to the cops is simple.  They are banned.  Easy statute for them to cite in your arrest papers.  Then it is up to you to find an exception to the ban in the NJ law.  And those exceptions are very very narrow!

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

...  Then NJ provides certain very specific circumstances by statute where you are exempt from the ban. ...

 

 

Right - and one portion of the specific exemptions allowed in the section for hollowpoints includes "land owned or possessed."

[kman 56]

Right - and one portion of the specific exemptions allowed in the section for hollowpoints includes "land owned or possessed."

 

The statute allowing hollow points says they are allowed in or on a "dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him"

 

Unlike the exemption governing firearms possession, the hollow point exemption does not say "place of business".

 

So here's a hypothetical.  John Smith is President and 100% owner of ABC Corporation, and ABC Corporation is the lessee on the lease for his office building where he works.  Well, ABC Corporation leases theoffice, not John Smith.  John Smith is a shareholder and President of ABC Corp, no more no less.  The cops come after he just shot someone who was high on PCP and broke into the office and tried to rape his secretary.  They find a 9mm pistol on Mr. Smith loaded with hollow point bullets.

 

Can they arrest Mr. Smith for possessing the pistol?  No, it is his place of business.  He is owner of the company, it is his business, he is on solid legal ground possessing the pistol there.  "Place of business" is a pretty wide term to interpret.  A company president can certainly said to be doing business in the offices of a company he owns!

 

John Smith may, however, be arrested for hollow point bullet possession.  There is no exemption for place of business for hollow points.  The only exemptions for hollow points are dwelling, owned land or possessed land.  He is not in a dwelling (he doesn't live there, it is an office), he doesn't own the land (the landlord does), and he doesn't possess the land (ABC Corporation does).  Moreover, there is no legal way that he could have actually brought the hollow point bullets to the office, because it's illegal to transport hollow points except "from place of purchase to said dwelling or land".  So Mr. Smith has to keep his mouth shut about how he got the bullets to the office or else he is going to admit to a felony right there.

 

John Smith is going to have to hire Evan Nappen and fight the hollow point charge and probably appeal it and maybe get a conviction along the way and his odds of having a reasonably broad interpretation of the law are questionable.  He has to make the court find that even though ABC Corporation is the lessee, HE possesses the land.  To make such a finding the court would have to maneuver itself around the barriers of real property law (possession of real property governed by a lease), contract law (the lease), and corporate law (separateness between the corporate entity and shareholders).

 

If John Smith shot the rapist with a flat point .40 or a FMJ .45, he avoids the hollow point issue entirely.  His secretary's statement to the police ties up the self defense claim.  His possession of the gun is legal, and since the bullet is shaped in a politically correct shape, he has no problem.  The coroner takes the body away, and he has his attorney work out an appropriate statement so the police can close the file.

 

Which situation would you rather deal with?

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

[Long Example]

 

Thanks for taking the time to type that. I can see the argument fails if ABC corp leases the land, but what if ABC owns the land?  John Smith owns ABC corp, ABC corp owns the land, ergo John Smith is the owner of the land?

 

How about the case of a sole proprietorship with a lease?  Legal then?

 

If so, then a more nuanced answer than "no hollowpoints at a business" is necessary.

 

And again, mail order is a legal way to receive hollow point ammunition (with the caveat that if it is hollow point *handgun* ammunition the receiver needs to have an FID) that does not run afoul of the "transport" restriction.

[kman 56]

Thanks for taking the time to type that. I can see the argument fails if ABC corp leases the land, but what if ABC owns the land? John Smith owns ABC corp, ABC corp owns the land, ergo John Smith is the owner of the land?

 

How about the case of a sole proprietorship with a lease? Legal then?

 

If so, then a more nuanced answer than "no hollowpoints at a business" is necessary.

 

And again, mail order is a legal way to receive hollow point ammunition (with the caveat that if it is hollow point *handgun* ammunition the receiver needs to have an FID) that does not run afoul of the "transport" restriction.

Who knows? If ABC owns the land then John Smith doesn't own it right? If ABC goes bankrupt then Mr. Smith is going to argue he is not personally responsible for company debts. The law on that is clear. The company is entirely separate and company debts are not his debts. So saying he owns the land because a company owns the land, that is a stretch.

 

The main point is who knows what a NJ judge is gonna decide? If the judges were gonna give benefit of the doubt we would have had wide interpretations of these laws years ago. Instead it seems every time there is a case judges decide the laws are narrower than we thought. So be careful before you start assuming stuff is legal. Look very carefully at what is allowed because there is no such thing as close enough in this state.

 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4

 

 

[Howard 538]

I think what is being said is you have to watch out because of technicalities in the law.  While John Smith may own all the shares in ABC it is ABC that holds the lease or owns the land, not John Smith directly.  If John Smith owned the business in his name it would be different.  This is similar that even though you may have bought your hand gun with a joint credit card in your and your wife's name as far as NJ is concerned there is only one legal owner of that gun, the one who filled out the P2P and has the FID.  Our laws are designed to make lawyers rich and the rest of us pay.

[Tack Tickle 0]

I would simply go with the Federal Guard Dog EFMJ (Expanding Full Metal Jackets).

 

Great expansion results through all of the FBI standards testing.

[mcbethr 42]

I would simply go with the Federal Guard Dog EFMJ (Expanding Full Metal Jackets).

 

Great expansion results through all of the FBI standards testing.

 

I go with this one.  Just get the the Federal EFMJ, Corbon Pow-r-ball or Hornady Critical defense and call it a day.  The state police has ruled that the above bullets are *not* hollow point precisely because the points aren't hollow - they either look like ball or have a polymer ball in the tip.

[CommonSense 0]

"The state police has ruled that the above bullets are *not* hollow point "

 

You have a reference for this? Are the state police now authorized to make legal rulings? I would say at best it is their opinion.

[ryan_j 0]

You have a reference for this? Are the state police now authorized to make legal rulings? I would say at best it is their opinion.

 

They issued a memo I think. They can do that to clarify certain things, such as how air guns with silencers are now assault weapons. 

[ryan_j 0]

 

And again, mail order is a legal way to receive hollow point ammunition (with the caveat that if it is hollow point *handgun* ammunition the receiver needs to have an FID) that does not run afoul of the "transport" restriction.

 

No, because the law says "possess" 

[CommonSense 0]

as far as NJ is concerned there is only one legal owner of that gun, the one who filled out the P2P and has the FID.

 

Not necessarily true. NJ has voluntary registration. If you move into New Jersey with guns that you owned legally in another state and they're NJ-legal guns, you can bring them into NJ and keep them in your NJ home without telling anyone about them. You could be the legal owner without ever getting an FID or P2P!

[mipafox 438]

 

 As far as the law is concerned if the lease is under your name or you own the property your business is on, you can its considered an extension of your property. You do not have to inform the local police but  unless you can gauge how they might respond I would be cautious in telling them.

 

My one family business I do not have a gun in that location due to the need is not really present and police presence is the store during operating hours is frequent however they have even expressed we look into protecting our assets when our window was broken in the night a year back. My other business I have strongly considered getting a speed vault and keeping my gun there permanently due to the late hours of operation and other things I consider making it a target. With that town though I dont know enough about the police there to know how they would respond to me bringing it up.

 

The problem with law in general is although it is written in black and white the enforcement is heavily up for discretion. So I believe in being prepared but for me to use my gun in my business setting the guy would have to have a gun pointed at my head or he had started to shoot customers. Pretty much any other scenario I would let him walk with my money and what not.

 

 

So, "the lease is under your name" at the other family business where you are planning to carry a handgun? Not an LLC, or Corp, or DBA, but your name. Is that correct?

 

Is it not necessary your name is on the lease, just that you own the business? Or you and your family? Or me holding 10,000 shares in Walmart?

 

Where is the line? Is it "the lease is under your name"?

[CommonSense 0]

They issued a memo I think. They can do that to clarify certain things, such as how air guns with silencers are now assault weapons. 

I did a little quick research on this. The fact is, NJ had already classified air rifles as "firearms", and a "silencer" (suppressor) is a "silencer". Hence the memo, and it was issued in response to questions.. A suppressed air rifle fits NJ's definition of an assault weapon. Sounds ridiculous, but when an air rifle is a "firearm", the rest is sound reasoning.

[ryan_j 0]

  

 

So, "the lease is under your name" at the other family business where you are planning to carry a handgun? Not an LLC, or Corp, or DBA, but your name. Is that correct?

 

Is it not necessary your name is on the lease, just that you own the business? Or you and your family? Or me holding 10,000 shares in Walmart?

 

Where is the line? Is it "the lease is under your name"?

Pretty sure you have to be the owner or have a considerable interest. If it was a family business all family members who co-own the business can possess firearms there.

 

Then again we are dealing with NJ courts so who knows.

[DirtyDigz 1,812]

No, because the law says "possess" 

 

Sigh...  *ASSUMING* possession is legal at the business per the discussion above, then mail ordering in the hollowpoints would be a legal way to get them there.

 

You earlier asserted there was no legal way to get hollowpoints to a business.

[1LtCAP 4,264]

I just have to bring this up again. If you can carry at home and you can carry at YOUR business, can your gun be loaded with hollow points? I think all agree it is legal at home; but at your place of business it would not seem to be. Oh, these NJ firearms laws! I'm getting a headache...

flew tips.

[ryan_j 0]

If they don't allow hollow points it makes no sense. Wouldn't ball ammo over penetrate which might injure a bystander?

 

 

It makes good headlines.

 

The headlines were along the lines of "NJ bans cop killer bullets." 

[ryan_j 0]

By your reasoning, anything that is not specifically allowed is "unknown until we have a test case".

 

Aitken claimed he was "moving", but he was actually driving around for multiple days with the firearms/magazines/ammunition in his car, not just directly from one home to another.

 

Edit - also, more than likely if Aitken didn't have the "high cap" magazines, then the "add on" charge of hollowpoints wouldn't have been made.

 

On appeal the judge dropped everything except for the hollow point charge. So it wasn't an add on charge. That is a common misconception. Hollow point possession is not an add on charge. 

[ryan_j 0]

Sigh...  *ASSUMING* possession is legal at the business per the discussion above, then mail ordering in the hollowpoints would be a legal way to get them there.

 

You earlier asserted there was no legal way to get hollowpoints to a business.

 

I'm not assuming it's legal. You are. 

[AnthonyG 36]

  

 

So, "the lease is under your name" at the other family business where you are planning to carry a handgun? Not an LLC, or Corp, or DBA, but your name. Is that correct?

 

Is it not necessary your name is on the lease, just that you own the business? Or you and your family? Or me holding 10,000 shares in Walmart?

 

Where is the line? Is it "the lease is under your name"?

 

The business I would be considering to carry in has my name directly named in the lease as the lessee and guarantor. My named entity is doing business on that property. If you are a small business and are sole owner or only have a partner or two you usually set up the lease where the property is leased to the individuals so if say your business was to go under you would have the option to sub lease it to someone else, and usually landlords like that because they have you personally responsible you don't have your corporate protections.

 

The only way I could see an issue on the lease end of things would be if in negotiations of a lease there was language in the contract by the landlord or management company that specifically said no firearms are allowed on any of the tenants properties. In agreeing to the contract you would be waiving your right to carry there in order to rent that property. A great example that's even worse, there have been numerous cases where apartment complex management removed a tenant because they had a gun in their own apartment and it said in their lease firearms were not allowed, so those individuals had to get rid of their guns or move out.