Choosing a holster

[vladtepes 1,060]

In fairness to the people that complain about failure under hard use... I could definitely see that happening... It has not happened to me...but I could see the release failing...

[Malsua 1,422]

In fairness to the people that complain about failure under hard use... I could definitely see that happening... It has not happened to me...but I could see the release failing...

 

I have a serpa, and I like it for what it is...that said...do an experiment.  

 

Put the Serpa holster on, gun cocked and draw.   Do it harder and harder and faster and faster.   Squeeze your hand while you're at it.  Do it enough and you'll hear it click (or bang if you don't bother to unload it ).   Yes, I realize that if you're smart enough to be aware of what you're doing, you're not going to squeeze your hand so hard that your finger will wind up on the trigger and pull it...but you'll understand why this is a problem and why people are shooting themselves with these holsters.

 

It took me about 15 draws, squeezing my hand hard and doing it very fast before it triggered, but it happened.  During a normal draw, I would never draw like that, but it still is possible if you don't draw properly.

[LorenzoS 100]

Vlad, you're absolutely correct that if you use proper technique everything would be fine.  But humans don't always follow perfect technique, especially under stress.   Accidents are rarely attributable to a single cause but rather the accumulation of multiple failures and mistakes.  The SERPA's retention button increases the chances of making a mistake and increases risk by adding one more possible point of failure. 

 

If this were the only retention holster available then it might make sense to manage around that risk.  But with thumb activated retention holsters like Safariland that have a long history of safe and reliable service it seems that the SERPA adds risk for no added benefit.  In my book that's poor risk management and a bad choice.  

[vladtepes 1,060]

I have a serpa, and I like it for what it is...that said...do an experiment.  

 

Put the Serpa holster on, gun cocked and draw.   Do it harder and harder and faster and faster.   Squeeze your hand while you're at it.  Do it enough and you'll hear it click (or bang if you don't bother to unload it ).   Yes, I realize that if you're smart enough to be aware of what you're doing, you're not going to squeeze your hand so hard that your finger will wind up on the trigger and pull it...but you'll understand why this is a problem and why people are shooting themselves with these holsters.

 

It took me about 15 draws, squeezing my hand hard and doing it very fast before it triggered, but it happened.  During a normal draw, I would never draw like that, but it still is possible if you don't draw properly.

If you are squeezing your hand that hard the error could occur with ANY holster... I do squeeze hard when I draw... But I also point my trigger finger... It's just how I draw a gun... I do it so when I pull the gun my finger ends up along the slide... So no matter what I do... Finger is not ending up on the trigger...

[High Exposure 5,664]

My issue isn't with shooting yourself - although that is a concern, it can - and does - happen regardless of holster. It does happen more with a SLURPA than other types, and the placement of the trigger finger to hit the release is poorly thought out. And you can say "I always do it right in training" or "I haven't shot myself yet" all you want, but.....When your heart rate hits 180bpm and your vision narrows and time slows down, you are going to get on that trigger early. Look at all the shooting where the first few rounds hit the ground and/or the the legs of the perp before settling on center mass. Do you think that is how the shooters were trained? Do you think they practiced that? Nope, that is fear overriding their training and the shooter rushing to get his finger on the trigger and start shooting.

 

My big SLURPA issue is with the actual retention mechanism and the overall shoddy construction of the holster.

 

The PD for the town live in requires SLURPA holsters for their S&W M&P 45s. I have seen many failures where the holster just broke. The belt attachment breaks, the finger release breaks, the holster body cracks... Some of this issues - especially the release mechanism failures - required the holster to be literally cut off the pistol. Some guys are now carrying tin snips in their squad car. The majority of these failures have occurred under general use as well - hitting a filing cabinet as you are walking by, getting caught in a seat belt, leaning against a wall. Some have broken with the user having no idea how it happened and couldn't trace the issue back to any specific point of damage.

 

The other concern isn't with breakage per se, but with the release mechanism getting jammed with snow, mud, ice, gravel, sand, dirt, leaves, etc.... And again not being able to draw. Bad juju. I have seen it happen in training plenty of times. I have it heard of it happening operationally a few. The chance that it could happen at all is scary enough to me to say no thanks.

 

I have also seen demonstrations where someone can snatch your whole rig, blaster and holster, right off your belt with minimal effort by twisting and snapping the belt attachment/paddle. It is almost instantaneous and most weapon retention techniques actually assist the grabber snatch your shit.

 

There are other holsters out there that are better quality, similar price range, and without these issues. Yes, I understand that anything can fail, and will fail at the worst possible time. I get that. But with the record these things have, the known examples and issues, it boggles my mind why someone would actually buy one on purpose. It is even more mind bending when people are shown the evidence of what can happen and they shrug it off with "mine has always been fine" or "it has been working fine so far" and then defend the reputation of this crappy holster as if it was their child....

 

Yeah, OK I got it. Everything in life is peaches and cream...until it isn't. Then what? Why train to use inferior life saving equipment?

[vladtepes 1,060]

The whole shooting yourself in the moment can happen with any holster... Getting your finger on the trigger too soon is not exclusive to this holster we know that....

 

My point is this.... Some people carry a gun every day... Others don't... Most of the time I am carrying IWB so this is all totally moot.. The ONlY time I carry in a serpa is when I carry my full size glock and may or may not be taking the gun on and off and putting it in my backpack.... I have already acknowledged there are better options... In fact if you look you will see I suggested a raven holster... NOT a serpa...

 

I will likely change it out when I find something that I can take on and off easily and sits flush to body...

It has not been a priority because I use it so infrequently...

 

My point is this... Sure there are better options... But I fail to see it to be the super death trap everyone claims it to be...

The claim that in a high stress situation I will use the gun differently is one I would argue.... When a crisis occurs and you freak out... You generally revert to your training... This is why you do things a million times over and develop muscle memory.... I have drawn that gun a million times from various holsters in various situations... I ALWAYS point my trigger finger as part if the draw to keep it OFF of the trigger.... So your argument is in a high stress situation I will now do it totally different? Sorry I don't buy that... It Might happen... But in that same regard anything might happen....

[High Exposure 5,664]

Yeah, it can happen with any holster, but it seems to happen a lot more often (or at least we hear about it a lot more) with the SLURPA. In my line of work we call that a clue.

 

Training is all fine and good, and it helps fight the psychological and physiological effects of a critical incident. It does not erase or eliminate them. You can count in a 50% reduction in skill during a gunfight. That is includes accuracy, manipulations, kinesthetics, and dexterity. You say it won't happen to you but it has happened to plenty of others. What makes you special? (Not intended as a jab, just a rhetorical question to make you think). The USMC has forbidden their use for their service members, reputable firearms trainers (EAG, CSAT, VTAC) have forbidden them in their classes - these decisions didn't occur in a vacuum. They are based on observations and results from real world issues that have occurred.

 

You can believe you won't put your finger on the trigger, but under stress you can't guarantee it. Why not stack the deck in your favor? Why be married to a $30 peice of plastic that even offers the opportunity to decrease you capability in a gunfight when you don't have to?

[n4p226r 105]

 

You can believe you won't put your finger on the trigger, but under stress you can't guarantee it. Why not stack the deck in your favor? Why be married to a $30 peice of plastic that even offers the opportunity to decrease you capability in a gunfight when you don't have to?

for $37 you can get a G-Code RST retention holster.  should do the trick

[n4p226r 105]

 

The PD for the town live in requires SLURPA holsters for their S&W M&P 45s. I have seen many failures where the holster just broke. The belt attachment breaks, the finger release breaks, the holster body cracks... Some of this issues - especially the release mechanism failures - required the holster to be literally cut off the pistol. Some guys are now carrying tin snips in their squad car. The majority of these failures have occurred under general use as well - hitting a filing cabinet as you are walking by, getting caught in a seat belt, leaning against a wall. Some have broken with the user having no idea how it happened and couldn't trace the issue back to any specific point of damage.

 

 

 

i used to think, when i first got into the hobby, that you should look at what the police and military use to determine whats good and bad.  i figure A) these are professionals that use this stuff daily and may rely on it to save their life and B) they have people that look into the proper equipment to use based on everything available in the market

 

then i got to see the red tape talking to a few friends.  i dont get half the stuff they do.  i'd almost think the best policy would be to have a list of 4 or 5 guns that pass muster, that the guy can use whatever he prefers.   example, if you are a 9mm department, you can use a department issued g17 or buy your own p226, m&p9, g19 or p30 for on duty use.  etc.  instead they stick to these strict rules of you can only use X and only have Y as a modification and blah blah which in turn creates unsafe situations or gives people firearms they may not perform as well with.  

[vladtepes 1,060]

Yeah, it can happen with any holster, but it seems to happen a lot more often (or at least we hear about it a lot more) with the SLURPA. In my line of work we call that a clue.

 

Training is all fine and good, and it helps fight the psychological and physiological effects of a critical incident. It does not erase or eliminate them. You can count in a 50% reduction in skill during a gunfight. That is includes accuracy, manipulations, kinesthetics, and dexterity. You say it won't happen to you but it has happened to plenty of others. What makes you special? (Not intended as a jab, just a rhetorical question to make you think). The USMC has forbidden their use for their service members, reputable firearms trainers (EAG, CSAT, VTAC) have forbidden them in their classes - these decisions didn't occur in a vacuum. They are based on observations and results from real world issues that have occurred.

 

You can believe you won't put your finger on the trigger, but under stress you can't guarantee it. Why not stack the deck in your favor? Why be married to a $30 peice of plastic that even offers the opportunity to decrease you capability in a gunfight when you don't have to?

 

 

sometimes.. you talk a little more than you read... 

 

if you actually read what I wrote you will see that I am not "married" to any holster.. you will also see that I do not recommend it to people.. 

I am not sure why you struggle to understand that.. 

 

its funny that you mention the Marine Corp... Gross and fine motor skills in relation to high stress was something I learned from my combatives instructor (Cardo Urso)... we trained and trained and trained to do things a certain way.. because in high stress it doesn't matter what percentage you assign to it.. MOST people will simply revert to the way they trained to do something providing it does not involve fine motor skills...  When I grab my gun out of any holster I point my finger so it stays off the trigger.. its just something I do.. not because of the serpa.. but to avoid accidents....  maybe under high stress I will decide jabbing my finger into the trigger is a good idea.. and the way I have done it a million times will change.. I find that unlikely.. but sure.. maybe.. but the same thing could happen out of my raven.. 

 

but at the end of the day as I stated (if you took the time to read) I will change out the holster at some point.... but not because I am terrified of it causing a problem.. but mostly because the only reason I originally got it was because it offered retention.. and I am really not concerned about that anymore.. I have considered going back to Raven.. but as of now I am undecided.. again not really a priority since I rarely carry the gun in it...