Guns found in attic - questions

[Respect2A 0]

The last thing I would do is call the police. They generally make an unclear situation worse. They know the laws even less than most people here.

 

If it was me I would do nothing and consult a lawyer who is well versed in firearm law.

 

If you didn't want to go that route I would assume that the homeowners are the legal owners due to buying the house and contents. Then I would fill out the necessary paperwork to take possession of the guns yourself. Obviously a COE for rifles and shotguns and a permit to purchase a pistol if pistols are involved. I'm pretty sure that when the appropriate permit forms make their way back thru the police department they will cross reference the serial numbers and if they come up stolen they will contact you.

 

I am not a lawyer and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

[Murphy4570 15]

Tell them to keep their traps shut and keep the firearms. Apply for FID cards.

 

You do not need to register firearms. Talk to a good gun lawyer (Evan Nappen comes to mind, though I myself have had no dealings with the man).

[Norseman 2]

Hey if they do contact the previous owners and they say that they ARE their guns, I would ask them to describe them and/or provide proof they owned the guns before just turning them over.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Newtonian 453]

This is another opportunity for me to pose my favorite theoretical question.

 

Disclaimer: This is purely theoretical. I am not providing advice of any kind, or proposing that anyone break any law.

 

OK here goes.

 

Since there's no registration in NJ, and you don't need to possess that pink sheet, what is the worst-case scenario if he simply keeps the guns? Can he join a range and take the guns there and have fun? Does he need an FID? 

 

Obvious murder and mayhem aside, under what specific circumstances can he get into trouble?

[Howard 538]

The worst case is life in prison or possibly the death penalty.  Let's say the old owner used on of these to kill a cop and a bunch of other people and then hid them in the attic.  Let's say he gets stopped for whatever reason and they find the guns and run some ballistics test on them and prove they were used for these murders.  Now he is in possession of these guns and there is no way to prove he did not have them at the time of the murder.  Not likely, but not a good situation.  You asked for worst case

[Worn_Holster 2]

In such a firearm unfriendly state, I would proceed with extreme caution. If you really want to try to keep them, seek assistance from a good NJ attorney that specializes in firearms. No matter what you may think that they are worth, they are not worth prison time and also losing your right to own firearms.

I'd be suprised if NJ LE can't get the identity of any forum member posing a what should I do question on this forum, and for that reason, I'd even be more cautious. You are in possession of handguns that admittedly don't belong to you. That already sounds like shaky ground to be standing on... 

[Howard 538]

.....

I'd be suprised if NJ LE can't get the identity of any forum member posing a what should I do question on this forum, and for that reason, I'd even be more cautious. You are in possession of handguns that admittedly don't belong to you. That already sounds like shaky ground to be standing on... 

Wow you make it sound like there really is such a thing as the NSA 

[Rival 0]

@ Nickjc,

 

Let me remind you this is a public internet forum. You've made YOUR case in several repeat posts under this thread. That doesn't mean the rest of the community can't chime in with their opinion/experiences.

 

I've made it clear that I was seeking this advise with full intention of reconciling it against someone with expertise of firearms law in NJ. I also made it clear that the homeowners have not declared their intentions at this point, and the questions I posed were cursory once I was told of their situation. Despite this, you seem to be getting very worked up.

 

The number of posts I've had is irrelevant. I've only been a member on here for a little less than 2 years. During that time, it's been the occasional browsing (and living life). I'm sorry if being a member of an community internet forum with "only 5 posts" disqualifies me from posing a question in your eyes. Again, thanks for your input. Hopefully your FFL business picks up so you don't feel the need to "challenge" someone on an internet forum for credibility in their posts.

[Handyman 5,682]

The worst case is life in prison or possibly the death penalty.  Let's say the old owner used on of these to kill a cop and a bunch of other people and then hid them in the attic.  Let's say he gets stopped for whatever reason and they find the guns and run some ballistics test on them and prove they were used for these murders.  Now he is in possession of these guns and there is no way to prove he did not have them at the time of the murder.  Not likely, but not a good situation.  You asked for worst case

 

If they are in good shape and worth the investment and construction permits it: new barrel(s), new firing pin(s), new ballistic test results.

[302w 83]

The most important question hasn't been answered....

 

What guns are they?! It could be the long lost .45ACP Luger!

[Smokin .50 1,907]

This happens all of the time, especially with long guns in attics.

 

Any good Estate lawyer will probably tell you that the contents belong to the new owner.  It's NOT illegal to "own" them since the transfer took place at the closing for the property.  That is UNLESS you're a Prohibited Person.  Ownership of an inanimate object (be it a car in the back yard or a gun in the attic) and TRANSPORTATION of the gun(s), especially hand guns, is yet another story, as ALL of the rules for ownership without a NJFID card come into play.  Same as would apply to a widow receiving a 300 gun collection from her deceased spouse.  She owns them, she can fondle them, she can take them (securely tied with brown paper and string) to a FFL to sell them to HIM, or to a Gunsmith to clean and check operational ability.  She can sell them (right across her kitchen table) to an adult over 21 years of age with a PPP and file the papers correctly.  What she can't do in NJ without a NJFID is FEEEED THEM (buy ammo for hand guns).  Since registration isn't mandatory, IMHO the new owner applies for their NJFID card and consults the same lawyer that attended the closing, after-all he/she was being well compensated to deal with the new property, right?  In every real estate contract buried in the minutia is some sort of clause that prevents a former owner from coming back and tearing down walls to find the missing treasure.  So read between the lines....

 

A little common sense goes a long way, and this little question is but a tip of the iceberg as far as what's left up in attics or crawl spaces, since it happens a lot more than you ever thought.  Just ask some friends who have cleaned-out their parent's homes or apartments to move them into assisted living or upon their demise have to deal with a house clean-out, antique and firearms appraisals, etc., etc.

 

Dave

[PK90 3,573]

One can not acquire any firearms without a FPID or P2P, unless they fall under one of the exemptions, and "I found them" is not one.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

 

One can not acquire any firearms without a FPID or P2P, unless they fall under one of the exemptions, and "I found them" is not one.

 

 

I respectfully disagree.  Especially for antique long guns found in an attic.  My take is a property rights issue, NOT a "I want to go buy a gun out on the street" issue.  Buried somewhere in the vast lengthiness of NJ's firearms laws are stipulations about legal transfers, and some of them in some of the various paragraphs say, "Unless otherwise prohibited", etc., etc.  In other words, there MAY be some lawyer-esk legalese where property rights and transfers butt heads.  As convoluted as NJ firearms laws are, confiscation of your own personal property that you own through no fault of your own, no action by you, etc., is not a prosecute-able offense.  Granted, yes it may be a gray area, and most FFL's have treated gun transfers by the letter of the law (to their credit), but I haven't heard of a single friend or acquaintance of mine ever utter from their lips that they had to go to the Police to get a P2P or a NJFID for something they found after a closing, and I've known of several cases including my next door neighbor that found an old 16 ga. in-between attic walls.

 

Just like a blind quadriplegic can own a car (but can't DRIVE it), so to can a homeowner find "treasure" in-between the walls of their humble abode and just let it sit there or sell it.....

[Newtonian 453]

This happens all of the time, especially with long guns in attics.

 

Any good Estate lawyer will probably tell you that the contents belong to the new owner.  It's NOT illegal to "own" them since the transfer took place at the closing for the property.  That is UNLESS you're a Prohibited Person. 

Good post. Once you buy the house you own everything in it. The transfer already happened, albeit unwittingly. You can't un-do it by bringing the guns down to your local precinct station. They're already yours. If you're a criminal for holding onto the guns and not telling anyone, then you're also a criminal for possessing them in the first place, even though you didn't know they existed when you took possession of them.

 

There might be a parallel here with "receiving stolen property." Prosecutors will try to convict even when there's serious doubt that the person who "received" knew that the goods were stolen. By analogy, you could well be opening yourself up to prosecution merely for admitting that you're in possession of handguns without having gone through the process.

 

Now will somebody please answer my original question? 

 

There's no gun registration in NJ. Let's say the new home owner doesn't say anything and gets a firearms purchase card. He brings his guns to the range and has fun. How does he get into trouble? What are the circumstances under which he gets caught, and the state proves he acquired the guns illegally? 

 

How many people reading this have had their gun(s) confiscated for ballistics testing, for potential involvement in unsolved crimes that may or may not have been committed many years earlier in another state by another person? NJ is bad, but we're not yet at that point.

 

Also, I was under the impression that if guns were acquired legally outside the jurisdiction of NJ law that they were legal to possess within the state, provided they comply with certain characteristics. This situation would almost certainly apply. The deed is done, the guns are yours. If you don't tell anyone nobody will ever know. Unless, of course, there is a specific law governing this type of acquisition.

 

In that case you're screwed.

[W2MC 1,699]

For some reason this thread reminds me of the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition.

 

 

http://www.sjtrek.com/trek/rules/

[Smokin .50 1,907]

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

 

Except for the paranoia regarding receiving stolen property, that is, lol!

 

Like I stated previously, my next door neighbor "found" at 16 ga. shotty in-between the walls when he was remodeling.  Lots of older Eastern Europeans remember tales of or lived through the heinous events of WW2, vowing to never let it happen again.  To that end, TONS of guns were secreted-away in attics, available to Patriots who would rather die fighting than be taken to camps.

 

I would venture a guess that NO ONE here has personal knowledge of someone being jacked-up for possessing their own personal property (along with other registered NJ compliant guns) or transporting same within the rules of law as currently enforced.  To the range and back, to a Gunsmith for repair, to a Dealer for sale or trade, etc.  All of the "normal" activities one would do with a firearm.  

 

Just like an old muzzleloader over the mantle, guns have been passed-down from family members since powder was invented.  Even our esteemed dick-headed lawyers in Trenton made it perfectly LEGAL for guns to pass to someone in a will (even if they don't have a NJFID).  It is my belief that the same mindset applies here, since the regularity of "finding guns in an attic" is akin to a needle in a haystack... 

[10X 3,306]

If they are in good shape and worth the investment and construction permits it: new barrel(s), new firing pin(s), new ballistic test results.

A serial number previously reported as stolen would still be a problem.  

 

If they are indeed worth the investment, I agree with the oft-repeated advice to contact an attorney who is familiar with firearms laws.  If they aren't worth the investment, finding a gun buyback program would get you a small return, and the police should be running the serial numbers and would hopefully return them to the rightful owners if they had been reported stolen.

[Newtonian 453]

So if you don't need a FID to own, and possession came about through no conscious act on the finder's part, but he nevertheless owns the guns under unclear legal circumstances, and he lives in a state where the judges write the law, but nobody knows unless he tells them...

 

...and he can fix it all by getting an FID and by so doing remove 99.9999% of suspicion under any conceivable situation, why should he volunteer potentially self-incriminating evidence that cannot help but can only hurt him?

 

This scenario has probably occurred 20,000 times during the last decade in this state. When was the last time you heard of someone going to jail for finding a handgun in his attic? 

 

Speaking of which: long before I owned even a shotgun, a local guy died and his heirs held an estate sale. One of the more interesting properties in Newton. Amazing furniture and antiques. He was a big game hunter and had trophies in every room -- I'm talking antelope, zebras, large cats. When I got to the house I was the only customer. "Lots more stuff in the attic," the curator told me.

 

In this attic was a TRUNK full of guns, mostly revolvers, and at least a dozen rifles leaning against various objects. Having no interest in such evil objects I left without buying anything. 

 

And that's why they call me Mr. Loser. Anyone who can tell me where that expression comes from receives a gold star.

[Smokin .50 1,907]

LOL, the man pictured in your avatar would simply call you a "Schmuck" for walking away from a trunk full of guns, lol!

 

In this case though, the Curator knew what he had (a trunk of guns), so a FFL transfer would have probably been required (published Estate Sale) since it probably wasn't his first rodeo...

 

But yeah, Schmuck would cover it, lol!

[Rival 0]

Hi all. Still no additional information on the firearms. The homeowners aren't currently living at the house, just renovating during their free time so scheduling a visit has been difficult.

 

On a side note, a few days ago I informed them to, at the very least, start by speaking with their closing attorney regarding the property found in the house. Apparently relatives of the former owner did indicate their might be a rifle in the house and that they'd like it back if it was found, however this was only done verbally. At the moment, my friends are inclined to turn the property back over to them as they aren't certain they want to deal with the ramifications of having the found firearms in the home.

 

Will keep everyone posted.

[Handyman 5,682]

 and the police should be running the serial numbers and would hopefully return them to the rightful owners if they had been reported stolen.

 

 

From what I have heard, the known stolen ones get scrapped along with everything else...

[Newtonian 453]

LOL, the man pictured in your avatar would simply call you a "Schmuck" for walking away from a trunk full of guns, lol!

 

In this case though, the Curator knew what he had (a trunk of guns), so a FFL transfer would have probably been required (published Estate Sale) since it probably wasn't his first rodeo...

 

But yeah, Schmuck would cover it, lol!

 

LOL, the man pictured in your avatar would simply call you a "Schmuck" for walking away from a trunk full of guns, lol!

 

In this case though, the Curator knew what he had (a trunk of guns), so a FFL transfer would have probably been required (published Estate Sale) since it probably wasn't his first rodeo...

 

But yeah, Schmuck would cover it, lol!

This was 1990, maybe 1991. Did the current laws apply?

 

I grew up in a gun-hating house. Even back in 1990, when I was 36, I thought that only cops and the military should own guns. My father, whose ultra-conservative politics I inherited, still believes that. The Metro North tragedy, and the successful proliferation of must-issue states, changed that for me but not for pop. At least I learned something from the facts.

 

I don't know if the guy was really a curator or just some family member. I called him a curator because he was sitting at a desk and had a ledger in front of him. Who knows? I have an inkling he didn't know about the firearms, or didn't care, or didn't know he was supposed to care about them. It would have been easier than pie to stick a few in my pockets and walk out. I'd never do that, though.

[Newtonian 453]

So everybody is scared shitless to discuss this topic.

 

What is this forum for? Nobody in his right mind is advocating breaking the law. This is more a philosophic discussion than a legal one.

 

In law school, students talk about stuff more serious than finding guns in attics. They live.

[PK90 3,573]

So everybody is scared shitless to discuss this topic.

 

What is this forum for? Nobody in his right mind is advocating breaking the law. This is more a philosophic discussion than a legal one.

 

In law school, students talk about stuff more serious than finding guns in attics. They live.

The OP asked about "legal ramifications", hence the legal answers.

 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Gravity 0]

Keep them for throw aways! everyone hates someone! Lol

[Newtonian 453]

The OP asked about "legal ramifications", hence the legal answers.

 

 

Correct. And I asked under what circumstances, assuming he was eligible to own a handgun, would a person who found one in his attic be 1) apprehended and 2) prosecuted? My question is not off topic at all.

 

What's the scenario? 

 

Nobody wants to touch that question.