Smokin .50 1,907 Posted March 3, 2015 Going back to the original title of this thread, I have a question for the forum for clarification: As I understand current NJ law regarding transporting my semi-automatic handgun(s) in my vehicle to and from a NJ range for practice, from my home in NJ, I must do the following to be compliant: 1. Place each unloaded gun with any unloaded magazines in a separate case, bag or container in the back of my SUV with the horizontal roller “shade” pulled over the rear-most storage area to make them inaccessible or in the locked trunk of my car. 2. Place all of my hand gun ammunition in their original boxes with the plastic “egg crate” style round separators, in a separate padlocked ammo box container, in the back of my SUV or car, as described above. Currently, I do all of that. Specifically I transport my hand guns in individual protective gun rugs and the ammunition in a separate locked ammo box, yet placing all of them inside one large range bag, placed in the back of my vehicle, as described above. Is this compliant with the “letter of the law” in NJ as you interpret it or am I really being overly cautious and excessive in my attempt at complying with NJ law? For what it is worth, I have also taken the additional step of making photocopy’s of all of my NJ Pistol Purchase Permit used for purchasing each gun, along with the store receipt for their separate purchases and place them in clear acetate sleeves and keep them in each of my gun rugs. This way, I can easily prove to any inquiring LEO that I have legally purchased each gun in NJ and that I am their lawful owner. AVB-AMG I can place belted ammo for a semi-auto 1919 .30-06 "machine gun" on top of said un-crated 1919 semi-auto tossed into the trunk of my car, and when the trunk deck lid locks shut, the NJSP considers my evil death machine to be "secure". So as long as you stay in NJ, you don't need gun rugs, cases, locks, trigger locks or anything else other than brown craft paper and bakery string to make a "securely tied package", and you can unload 100 hand guns out of your trunk and carry them into an Exempt Location by making 100 trips with the same paper and string..... As for the practice of deliberately enclosing a copy of the P2P with each hand gun, I deem this to be VERY unwise. What if someone cold conks you and steals your gun(s)? You just gave them enough info to come and steal everything else you own. Might as well put an extra house key in the gun bag too, lol! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jackandjill 683 Posted March 3, 2015 @PK90: Just wanted to say, I understand your pain. @AVB-AMG: Transportation Section. http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/29389-read-before-posting-nj-gun-law-faq/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AVB-AMG 530 Posted March 3, 2015 As for the practice of deliberately enclosing a copy of the P2P with each hand gun, I deem this to be VERY unwise. What if someone cold conks you and steals your gun(s)? You just gave them enough info to come and steal everything else you own. Might as well put an extra house key in the gun bag too, lol! Smokin: Yes, my home address is on the P2P, but other than that why do you think this practice is unwise? If some steals whatever gun(s) I have inside my vehicle, I would like to think that they have enough sense to realize that I just might have other guns at home and the ability and willingness to use them against a home invader. Also, that I may have other security measures in place, such as an alarm system, dog, menopausal wife and other active and passive deterrents. I would rather take the chance of theft than not be able to prove my legal gun ownership. Respectfully, AVB-AMG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AVB-AMG 530 Posted March 3, 2015 @AVB-AMG: Transportation Section. http://njgunforums.com/forum/index.php/topic/29389-read-before-posting-nj-gun-law-faq/ jackandjill: Got it.... thanks for playing "traffic cop" I should have checked out that sticky thead first..... AVB-AMG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pizza Bob 1,488 Posted March 3, 2015 Smokin: Yes, my home address is on the P2P, but other than that why do you think this practice is unwise? If some steals whatever gun(s) I have inside my vehicle, I would like to think that they have enough sense to realize that I just might have other guns at home and the ability and willingness to use them against a home invader. Also, that I may have other security measures in place, such as an alarm system, dog, menopausal wife and other active and passive deterrents. I would rather take the chance of theft than not be able to prove my legal gun ownership. Respectfully, AVB-AMG Right there is your problem - you think that criminals think logically. If there is one thing that my term on a grand jury taught me, it's that we have no frame of reference to understand the criminal mind. Address. Gun. That's all they need to see. I know that we don't live in a free state, but stop and think - not every handgun owned by a NJ resident has a purchase permit attached to it. I moved to this state (yeah, I know - big mistake) 37 years ago and already owned more than a few handguns - those appear no where in NJ's database, yet they are perfectly legal. Isn't it incumbent on the state to show that the guns are stolen? Run the serial number through NCIC and if it comes up clean, they have no justification for retaining it. I think that it's sad that this state makes its own residents so paranoid that they have to invent extreme measures thinking that is what is needed to comply with the law - you are making it far worse than it already is (and that's plenty bad enough). You don't need to come on a gun forum like this and ask this type of question - all you need to do is read the statutes yourself and formulate your course of action after you are correctly informed of the law. After a match, in the course of packing to leave, I saw a fellow competitor stripping all the rounds from his magazines. I ask him why he was doing that. He replied, "It's the law." I told him that at next month's match, if he could bring me the cite that makes carrying loaded magazines illegal, I would pay his match fee for that month. OTOH, if he couldn't, he had to pay mine. I shot free the next month. Do what you will - as I said, way overkill, but if it makes you comfortable, who am I to argue - just don't tell people that you are taking these measures because to do otherwise would be illegal. Adios, Pizza Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mipafox 438 Posted March 4, 2015 Nevermind, I missed the finer point of that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mipafox 438 Posted March 4, 2015 If something is illegal in NJ for me why would it not be illegal for you? Federal concealed carry reciprocity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carcano 14 Posted March 4, 2015 If someone had guns legal in PA but not in NJ, could they bring them into NJ if going to a NJ range (with the exception of "high capacity" magazines)? Also (unrelated), if their permanent residence is out of state, but they have a residence in NJ as well, does the NJ residence count as a residence (if they have a NJ FID card)? Not legal in NJ = instant felon if stopped. You cannot transport anything banned in NJ into NJ (even if it's just for a few hours at the range) unless they are registered assault weapons in NJ which is unlikely. This is common sense, leave it in PA and don't even think about driving into NJ with it. Only exception would be if you were a NJ FFL w/ retail firearms license or have a NJ machine gun/assault weapon license and that's not going to happen IMO from my research. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AVB-AMG 530 Posted March 4, 2015 You don't need to come on a gun forum like this and ask this type of question - all you need to do is read the statutes yourself and formulate your course of action after you are correctly informed of the law. Do what you will - as I said, way overkill, but if it makes you comfortable, who am I to argue - just don't tell people that you are taking these measures because to do otherwise would be illegal. Adios, Pizza Bob Pizza Bob: I agree with you that NJ's current gun laws are archaic and in some cases, make no sense and are missing entirely what their original intention was when they were enacted. Yet, if NJ gun law is really is that crystal clear, then why are there so many people on this forum who have been and continue to ask these basic questions? What is the point of these types of online forums if not to ask these type of questions. I learned years ago from some really effective teachers that there really is no such thing as stupid questions, just stupid or incorrect answers, and therefore do not be afraid to ask questions.... I have read the law and am proceeding foreward with a very conservative interpretation of the law, as I see it and am asking others here for their understanding of the law. When it comes to the potential legal consequences of running afowl of NJ gun laws, I would much rather be overly cautious than less so. As you rightfully recognize, that if it makes me more comfortable, so be it, since it is not hurting anyone else. Also, I never said in my previous posts that I am "taking these measures because to do otherwise would be illegal". That is an unfortunate misrepresentation of what I said. Again, what I was asking: "Is this compliant with the “letter of the law” in NJ as you interpret it or am I really being overly cautious and excessive in my attempt at complying with NJ law?" I think I catch your drift that I am being overly cautious.... That is fine and I respect your opinion. AVB-AMG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin .50 1,907 Posted March 4, 2015 ^^^If one studies the EXCEPTIONS and the EXEMPTIONS, as well as the laws on TRANSPORTATION, and takes into account that NJ doesn't have a moat around it and therefore (LEGAL) unregistered guns flow into NJ on a daily basis (like Bob mentioned), applies some common sense (instead of adding law where there isn't any) with regard to personal property passed-down through wills and estates (even a Prohibited Person has 180 days to sell guns they're not supposed to have that were willed to them), understanding NJ gun law is rather simple. What some members of this forum (and other interwebs locations) fail to realize is that you're not going to always find a statute that says "it's O-K for me to have my gun with me under these circumstances", and just because you can't find it, doesn't automatically mean that it's considered shady or illegal for you to possess or transport said firearm and ammo in a particular way. It's sorta like BREATHING AIR....you don't have to have a permission slip from the State to do THAT either... Case in point: When Hurricane Sandy hit, roads were washed-away and access to LBI and its' multi-million dollar structures was cut-off and a mandatory evacuation was ordered. Lots of folks own a second, third or even fourth dwelling on LBI. Some of them are gun owners, and their vast collections of quality firearms are spread-out throughout their properties (and YES it's LEGAL!). When dwellings were washed-away, causing gun safes to be buried under tons of sand and sea water, the Police agencies on the scene of the disaster weren't rounding-up volunteers for overtime to conduct no-knock raids so they could arrest gun owners who lost everything. But yet we still get questions here about TRANSPORTATION of legally owned firearms between residences which is an EXEMPTION. In fact I know that friends of mine were instructed by the local Cops to grab their firearms and take them to wherever they were going to live, be it a friend's or relative's dwelling, a Hotel, virtually ANYWHERE, so long as they didn't leave them to be scavenged/looted post-storm. Lots of firearms were stored in trunks of cars, commercial storage sites, even a locker at a Country Club or two. Yet there was NO mass punitive action taken by any Police agency that I'm aware of. After the Storm hit, at least one FUDD friend of mine (who has a Pink Card and works behind the counter of a local Gun Shop) thought that a NJ gun owner would risk being locked-up for having guns at more than a single residence, especially if said residence wasn't his "official NJFID address" . This is what I mean when I say please don't add laws all on your own! There's a TON of other examples. The forum is replete with quoted law excerpts that nobody reads (so they can glean the laws, as well as expert information and analysis in their quest to get their questions answered).Everyone is entitled to act in their own best self-interest with regard to ownership and transportation of firearms. Some (like myself) go about their daily business doing as little as is humanly possible to adhere to NJ gun law (since I've been driving guns around for over 37 years it's all second-nature to me---like breathing air!) and others are only "made comfortable" with trigger locks, gun case locks, ammo can locks, etc., etc., and informing them of what the REAL laws say is information they don't wish to absorb. If I had the money for every friend and/or club member that had to leave the range to buy bulk cutters at a hardware store to cut off said locks from their equipment, I could take my entire family to Ruth's Chris in Weehawken, lol. I wonder if the Cops would consider Home Depot as a "reasonable deviation" (O-K, now maybe you understand where my head is at, lol)?? Just have fun and be SAFE. Dave The Shootist Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Howard 538 Posted March 4, 2015 Dave has just provided some good and accurate information above! I do not agree with AVB-AMG that there is no such thing as a dumb question, well at least when it has to do with gun laws. It is dumb to ask for legal advice on the internet. If you want legal advice get it from a lawyer, preferably one that really knows gun laws. Even then, you have to keep in mind that the law is only what a given judge or a jury says it is on a given day. That said your best bet is to read the laws yourself and then don't make yourself a target. Don't put gun related bumper stickers on your car and don't leave gun paraphernalia in plain view inside your car. Use common sense and you probably won't have any issues. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AVB-AMG 530 Posted March 4, 2015 Don't put gun related bumper stickers on your car and don't leave gun paraphernalia in plain view inside your car. Use common sense and you probably won't have any issues. I think howard makes a valid point. Why give any outward hint as to what possibly may be inside your vehicle. Any gun-oriented decals or bumper stickers could be misinterpreted by a LEO who stops you for some traffic infraction, to possibly start asking questions about guns and potentially unintended consequences. (Yes, I understand from the previous posts on this thread, what the options are on how to respond). As a self-proclaimed "car guy" I shun putting any unnecessary or superfluous text or graphic items on the outside of my car’s body or windows, since I do not like the appearance of, nor am interested in being a “rolling billboard”. These may include: stickers, decals, automobile dealer advertising in the form of medallions or license plate frames, etc. Various NRA, Gun Owners of America, 2nd Amendment Rights, etc... decals that may possibly be interpreted to inform or depending on the size and visibility of it, even broadcast to other motorists, pedestrians and LEO’s that you may possibly be transporting a gun in your car, some being quite amusing yet still somewhat provocative…. Why even take that chance? AVB-AMG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
weekend_junkie 129 Posted March 4, 2015 Why even take that chance? Agreed. Not to further derail the question, I'll chime in and TRY to relate this to transporting. To me, a car decal is akin to wearing a "back off, I've got a gun" shirt with a picture of Yosemite Sam on the back. Is that something you need to advertise if you're a CCW holder?? Don't even get me started with the "baby on board" window things (aka, the "rob me first" signs)... It's been said, but either (A) read the law or (B) ask a lawyer. Law interpretations from gun store salesmen, cops, range officers, and Internet forum dwellers like me are not defensible and rife with opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carcano 14 Posted March 4, 2015 ^^^If one studies the EXCEPTIONS and the EXEMPTIONS, as well as the laws on TRANSPORTATION, and takes into account that NJ doesn't have a moat around it and therefore (LEGAL) unregistered guns flow into NJ on a daily basis (like Bob mentioned), applies some common sense (instead of adding law where there isn't any) with regard to personal property passed-down through wills and estates (even a Prohibited Person has 180 days to sell guns they're not supposed to have that were willed to them), understanding NJ gun law is rather simple. What some members of this forum (and other interwebs locations) fail to realize is that you're not going to always find a statute that says "it's O-K for me to have my gun with me under these circumstances", and just because you can't find it, doesn't automatically mean that it's considered shady or illegal for you to possess or transport said firearm and ammo in a particular way. It's sorta like BREATHING AIR....you don't have to have a permission slip from the State to do THAT either... Case in point: When Hurricane Sandy hit, roads were washed-away and access to LBI and its' multi-million dollar structures was cut-off and a mandatory evacuation was ordered. Lots of folks own a second, third or even fourth dwelling on LBI. Some of them are gun owners, and their vast collections of quality firearms are spread-out throughout their properties (and YES it's LEGAL!). When dwellings were washed-away, causing gun safes to be buried under tons of sand and sea water, the Police agencies on the scene of the disaster weren't rounding-up volunteers for overtime to conduct no-knock raids so they could arrest gun owners who lost everything. But yet we still get questions here about TRANSPORTATION of legally owned firearms between residences which is an EXEMPTION. In fact I know that friends of mine were instructed by the local Cops to grab their firearms and take them to wherever they were going to live, be it a friend's or relative's dwelling, a Hotel, virtually ANYWHERE, so long as they didn't leave them to be scavenged/looted post-storm. Lots of firearms were stored in trunks of cars, commercial storage sites, even a locker at a Country Club or two. Yet there was NO mass punitive action taken by any Police agency that I'm aware of. After the Storm hit, at least one FUDD friend of mine (who has a Pink Card and works behind the counter of a local Gun Shop) thought that a NJ gun owner would risk being locked-up for having guns at more than a single residence, especially if said residence wasn't his "official NJFID address" . This is what I mean when I say please don't add laws all on your own! There's a TON of other examples. The forum is replete with quoted law excerpts that nobody reads (so they can glean the laws, as well as expert information and analysis in their quest to get their questions answered). Everyone is entitled to act in their own best self-interest with regard to ownership and transportation of firearms. Some (like myself) go about their daily business doing as little as is humanly possible to adhere to NJ gun law (since I've been driving guns around for over 37 years it's all second-nature to me---like breathing air!) and others are only "made comfortable" with trigger locks, gun case locks, ammo can locks, etc., etc., and informing them of what the REAL laws say is information they don't wish to absorb. If I had the money for every friend and/or club member that had to leave the range to buy bulk cutters at a hardware store to cut off said locks from their equipment, I could take my entire family to Ruth's Chris in Weehawken, lol. I wonder if the Cops would consider Home Depot as a "reasonable deviation" (O-K, now maybe you understand where my head is at, lol)?? Just have fun and be SAFE. Dave The Shootist You cannot bring a non-compliant firearm into NJ, go ahead and try it if you are stopped expect to be arrested. Makes no difference if you are a resident or non-resident, or if you are going to and from a range. It's illegal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin .50 1,907 Posted March 4, 2015 You cannot bring a non-compliant firearm into NJ, go ahead and try it if you are stopped expect to be arrested. Makes no difference if you are a resident or non-resident, or if you are going to and from a range. It's illegal. And exactly where did I even mention non-compliant ownership, transportation or possession in this post??? FWIW all of the way back in Post #9 I stated if the gun wasn't "NJ Legal" to leave it in PA, so perhaps you're confusing me with another forum member??? Or are you in agreement with what I typed and you're merely adding to it (giving you the benefit of the doubt here)??? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carcano 14 Posted March 5, 2015 And exactly where did I even mention non-compliant ownership, transportation or possession in this post??? FWIW all of the way back in Post #9 I stated if the gun wasn't "NJ Legal" to leave it in PA, so perhaps you're confusing me with another forum member??? Or are you in agreement with what I typed and you're merely adding to it (giving you the benefit of the doubt here)??? Dave I'm adding to what you typed, making it very clear for anyone reading not to try it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bt Doctur 188 Posted March 5, 2015 And if your a Pa CCW holder, leave it home. Declare it and you arrested on the spot. If you happen to be stopped, license, registration and SHUT UP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin .50 1,907 Posted March 5, 2015 I'm adding to what you typed, making it very clear for anyone reading not to try it. Cool Beans and thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smokin .50 1,907 Posted March 5, 2015 And if your a Pa CCW holder, leave it home. Declare it and you arrested on the spot. If you happen to be stopped, license, registration and SHUT UP +1 ZILLION! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Carcano 14 Posted March 5, 2015 As pointed out in this thread, if you must move a prohibited firearm into NJ (not suggesting anyone try it): - Good registration, inspection, valid insurance. - Make sure signal, brake and headlights work. - No pro-gun stickers on the car/truck/van, that means no NRA or "honk I'm reloading" decals. - Drive the speed limit or slightly under it. - Pack whatever it is you are carrying out of sight, in the trunk covered up with a blanket or in the back of a truck/van with clothing, etc. thrown on top. - No warrant = no search, if you get out of the vehicle lock the doors and if LE asks to take a look be firm and refuse on the grounds of privacy. Not suggesting anyone break the law but if you must the above is common sense and should keep you from enjoying a free ride in a police car. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites