Thumbhole stock an an autoloader?

[lunker 274]

Where does New Jersey stand on thumbhole stocks like the one below with regard to an autoloading shotgun? Is it considered a pistol grip (illegal) or a regular stock (legal)?

 

http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/advanced-tech-mak90-fiberforce-thumbhole-stock-p-420.html

[vjf915 456]

My understanding, as I believe I have asked a similar question, is that thumbhole stocks are NOT considered pistol grip.

[vladtepes 1,060]

that one is pretty blatant.. could I have that on a Saiga..

[FFDP82 4]

that one is pretty blatant.. could I have that on a Saiga..

 

Not on a Saiga 12/20/410

 

That may say "thumbhole" but that stock pictured is seriously pressing the definition of "thumbhole" and I would NOT put that on an semi-auto shotgun east of the Delaware River.....

[Babaganoosh 192]

Not on a Saiga 12/20/410

 

That may say "thumbhole" but that stock pictured is seriously pressing the definition of "thumbhole" and I would NOT put that on an semi-auto shotgun east of the Delaware River.....

 

Yeah I agree with that. Its more of a handhole than a thumbhole

[lunker 274]

Yeah I agree with that. Its more of a handhole than a thumbhole

 

I agree with all of you about this "thumbhole stock" stretching the definition. That is why I was asking if there is a black and white definition. I don't want to rely on what seems like it might work in the ridiculous state we live in. As shitty as California's laws are, at least they are well defined. There is an explicit definition of what constitutes a thumbhole stock versus what is a "handhole" (I like that one) stock.

[Babaganoosh 192]

I will add that the stock is pretty cool looking though!

[coldsolderjoint 84]

California has a definition, NJ does not AFAIK

[lunker 274]

I just got off the phone with an officer from the State Police Headquarters firearms unit in Trenton. He advised me that all thumbhole stocks, as long as the vertical grip portion is attached to the rear of the stock, are not considered pistol grips in New Jersey. He even mentioned that he had one on his 11-87.

I asked if this was written anywhere in the law or if there was an explicit writing that it was legal (i.e. like the AG letter about the M1A and Colt Match Target) and was told that it is an ATF interpretation and is accepted by New Jersey.

[Krdshrk 3,877]

Score

[lunker 274]

Now the trick is...

 

We all know how interested much of New Jersey's police force is about minutiae of gun law and legality. Are you willing to take the chance of running into an uniformed officer and explaining it to him? Do you think you'll get far?

[coldsolderjoint 84]

I just got off the phone with an officer from the State Police Headquarters firearms unit in Trenton. He advised me that all thumbhole stocks, as long as the vertical grip portion is attached to the rear of the stock, are not considered pistol grips in New Jersey. He even mentioned that he had one on his 11-87.

I asked if this was written anywhere in the law or if there was an explicit writing that it was legal (i.e. like the AG letter about the M1A and Colt Match Target) and was told that it is an ATF interpretation and is accepted by New Jersey.

 

Didn't the ATF stop interpreting stuff like this 6 years ago?

[lunker 274]

Didn't the ATF stop interpreting stuff like this 6 years ago?

 

Considering we are still a "ban" state, perhaps we are using ATF interpretations from when the Federal AWB was still in effect. Please note that is just supposition on my part. I am just making a semi-educated guess.

[david8613 69]

please say this is legal?

[lunker 274]

please say this is legal?

 

David,

The topic was for autoloading shotguns. A pistol grip is not legal on an autoloder shotgun, and we were talking about whether a thumbhole stock qualifies as a pistol grip or not.

Your Mak90 falls under the rifle restrictions. It doesn't have a flash hider, bayonet lug, or folding stock, so you should be OK. If your thumbhole stock doesn't count as a pistol grip, then you have no "evil" features. If it does, you only have one. Either way I think you are good to go.

[lunker 274]

Duped post

[vladtepes 1,060]

please say this is legal?

 

 

what is it..

[david8613 69]

opps sorry about that, i thought that pic was of saiga 12 with a thumbhole stock... still learning.

[vladtepes 1,060]

opps sorry about that, i thought that pic was of saiga 12 with a thumbhole stock... still learning.

 

 

I thought it was a Saiga in 410 at first..

[FFDP82 4]

Just to throw a wrench in your gears....I went looking for ATF letters regarding thumbhole stocks and found this:

 

The letter is regarding the 1994 Federal AWB

 

The term ``semiautomatic assault weapon'' is defined in the Act as including

 

semiautomatic rifles and semiautomatic shotguns which have 2 or more of

 

the features specified in the law. One of the features specified is a

 

``pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the

 

weapon.'' The commenter stated that thumbhole stocks function in the

 

same manner as pistol grips and, therefore, should be included within

 

the definition of this term.

 

ATF agrees with the commenter that replacing a separate pistol grip

 

with a thumbhole stock does not remove the pistol grip as a feature. A

 

semiautomatic rifle or semiautomatic shotgun with a thumbhole stock and

 

one or more of the other features specified in the law would be a

 

``semiautomatic assault weapon'' as defined. However, ATF does not

 

believe it is necessary to provide a separate definition of ``pistol

 

grip'' or any of the other features listed in the statute.

 

http://www.ttb.gov/rrd/tdatf396.htm

 

 

For those unaware of how ATF letters work, they are an opinion and not a codified fact. You can get an answer to a question, and meanwhile another person could ask the same question to a different agent the same day and get a different answer and your letter is now toilet paper. ATF can change their minds anytime. After all, opinions change.

 

I would strongly recommend not playing with that stock in NJ. But that is up to you.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Just to throw a wrench in your gears....I went looking for ATF letters regarding thumbhole stocks and found this:

 

The letter is regarding the 1994 Federal AWB

 

 

 

http://www.ttb.gov/rrd/tdatf396.htm

 

 

For those unaware of how ATF letters work, they are an opinion and not a codified fact. You can get an answer to a question, and meanwhile another person could ask the same question to a different agent the same day and get a different answer and your letter is now toilet paper. ATF can change their minds anytime. After all, opinions change.

 

I would strongly recommend not playing with that stock in NJ. But that is up to you.

 

I will personally hold out until I can do a real deal Saiga 12 conversion.. and until then mossberg pump it is!

[lunker 274]

I would not take the chance. I was curious what the police had to day. Of course I only spoke with one officer. The trigger on the unconverted Saiga is crappy enough that I wouldn't own one unless I could convert it.