lunker 274 Posted October 4, 2010 Where does New Jersey stand on thumbhole stocks like the one below with regard to an autoloading shotgun? Is it considered a pistol grip (illegal) or a regular stock (legal)? http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/advanced-tech-mak90-fiberforce-thumbhole-stock-p-420.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vjf915 456 Posted October 4, 2010 My understanding, as I believe I have asked a similar question, is that thumbhole stocks are NOT considered pistol grip. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted October 5, 2010 that one is pretty blatant.. could I have that on a Saiga.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FFDP82 4 Posted October 5, 2010 that one is pretty blatant.. could I have that on a Saiga.. Not on a Saiga 12/20/410 That may say "thumbhole" but that stock pictured is seriously pressing the definition of "thumbhole" and I would NOT put that on an semi-auto shotgun east of the Delaware River..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Babaganoosh 192 Posted October 5, 2010 Not on a Saiga 12/20/410 That may say "thumbhole" but that stock pictured is seriously pressing the definition of "thumbhole" and I would NOT put that on an semi-auto shotgun east of the Delaware River..... Yeah I agree with that. Its more of a handhole than a thumbhole Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lunker 274 Posted October 5, 2010 Yeah I agree with that. Its more of a handhole than a thumbhole I agree with all of you about this "thumbhole stock" stretching the definition. That is why I was asking if there is a black and white definition. I don't want to rely on what seems like it might work in the ridiculous state we live in. As shitty as California's laws are, at least they are well defined. There is an explicit definition of what constitutes a thumbhole stock versus what is a "handhole" (I like that one) stock. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Babaganoosh 192 Posted October 5, 2010 I will add that the stock is pretty cool looking though! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coldsolderjoint 84 Posted October 5, 2010 California has a definition, NJ does not AFAIK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lunker 274 Posted October 5, 2010 I just got off the phone with an officer from the State Police Headquarters firearms unit in Trenton. He advised me that all thumbhole stocks, as long as the vertical grip portion is attached to the rear of the stock, are not considered pistol grips in New Jersey. He even mentioned that he had one on his 11-87. I asked if this was written anywhere in the law or if there was an explicit writing that it was legal (i.e. like the AG letter about the M1A and Colt Match Target) and was told that it is an ATF interpretation and is accepted by New Jersey. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lunker 274 Posted October 5, 2010 Now the trick is... We all know how interested much of New Jersey's police force is about minutiae of gun law and legality. Are you willing to take the chance of running into an uniformed officer and explaining it to him? Do you think you'll get far? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coldsolderjoint 84 Posted October 5, 2010 I just got off the phone with an officer from the State Police Headquarters firearms unit in Trenton. He advised me that all thumbhole stocks, as long as the vertical grip portion is attached to the rear of the stock, are not considered pistol grips in New Jersey. He even mentioned that he had one on his 11-87. I asked if this was written anywhere in the law or if there was an explicit writing that it was legal (i.e. like the AG letter about the M1A and Colt Match Target) and was told that it is an ATF interpretation and is accepted by New Jersey. Didn't the ATF stop interpreting stuff like this 6 years ago? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lunker 274 Posted October 5, 2010 Didn't the ATF stop interpreting stuff like this 6 years ago? Considering we are still a "ban" state, perhaps we are using ATF interpretations from when the Federal AWB was still in effect. Please note that is just supposition on my part. I am just making a semi-educated guess. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
david8613 69 Posted October 8, 2010 please say this is legal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lunker 274 Posted October 8, 2010 please say this is legal? David, The topic was for autoloading shotguns. A pistol grip is not legal on an autoloder shotgun, and we were talking about whether a thumbhole stock qualifies as a pistol grip or not. Your Mak90 falls under the rifle restrictions. It doesn't have a flash hider, bayonet lug, or folding stock, so you should be OK. If your thumbhole stock doesn't count as a pistol grip, then you have no "evil" features. If it does, you only have one. Either way I think you are good to go. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted October 8, 2010 please say this is legal? what is it.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
david8613 69 Posted October 8, 2010 opps sorry about that, i thought that pic was of saiga 12 with a thumbhole stock... still learning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted October 8, 2010 opps sorry about that, i thought that pic was of saiga 12 with a thumbhole stock... still learning. I thought it was a Saiga in 410 at first.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FFDP82 4 Posted October 9, 2010 Just to throw a wrench in your gears....I went looking for ATF letters regarding thumbhole stocks and found this: The letter is regarding the 1994 Federal AWB The term ``semiautomatic assault weapon'' is defined in the Act as including semiautomatic rifles and semiautomatic shotguns which have 2 or more of the features specified in the law. One of the features specified is a ``pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.'' The commenter stated that thumbhole stocks function in the same manner as pistol grips and, therefore, should be included within the definition of this term. ATF agrees with the commenter that replacing a separate pistol grip with a thumbhole stock does not remove the pistol grip as a feature. A semiautomatic rifle or semiautomatic shotgun with a thumbhole stock and one or more of the other features specified in the law would be a ``semiautomatic assault weapon'' as defined. However, ATF does not believe it is necessary to provide a separate definition of ``pistol grip'' or any of the other features listed in the statute. http://www.ttb.gov/rrd/tdatf396.htm For those unaware of how ATF letters work, they are an opinion and not a codified fact. You can get an answer to a question, and meanwhile another person could ask the same question to a different agent the same day and get a different answer and your letter is now toilet paper. ATF can change their minds anytime. After all, opinions change. I would strongly recommend not playing with that stock in NJ. But that is up to you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladtepes 1,060 Posted October 9, 2010 Just to throw a wrench in your gears....I went looking for ATF letters regarding thumbhole stocks and found this: The letter is regarding the 1994 Federal AWB http://www.ttb.gov/rrd/tdatf396.htm For those unaware of how ATF letters work, they are an opinion and not a codified fact. You can get an answer to a question, and meanwhile another person could ask the same question to a different agent the same day and get a different answer and your letter is now toilet paper. ATF can change their minds anytime. After all, opinions change. I would strongly recommend not playing with that stock in NJ. But that is up to you. I will personally hold out until I can do a real deal Saiga 12 conversion.. and until then mossberg pump it is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lunker 274 Posted October 10, 2010 I would not take the chance. I was curious what the police had to day. Of course I only spoke with one officer. The trigger on the unconverted Saiga is crappy enough that I wouldn't own one unless I could convert it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites