CCW, WHERE DO WE START?

[Al1969 2]

Hi everyone,

 

I've "lurking" on this forum for a couple of years. Quite frankly, just like everyone else I'm completely frustrated with the insane State Laws when it comes to even attempt to apply for a CCW. while I've seen many posts, form letters, and bills on the forum. I've yet to results out of any of them.

So my question is, what is the best approach to attempt to repeal/modify the current system in the State? Is it the NRA? State representatives? Governor?

speaking of our new Governor. i've not heard anything he's doing regarding 2nd amendment issues in the State. Any suggestions?

 

Thanks!

[AtlanticCounty 0]

I really don't think the state assembly and state senate in NJ will ever pass "shall issue" legislation willingly.

 

If all goes well with the Chicago Mcdonald case the ban on CCW permits will be challenged next.

 

Wisconsin is the only other state with a "no issue" CCW law. The state assembly and state senate in Wisconsin passed a CCW bill but it was vetoed by the Democratic Gov. Thats going to change this November. Then Illinois will be the lone state with a ban on CCW making it a perfect challenge for the courts.

[Chad 3]

In my opinion, we can call, write, email, sign a million petitions or even protest all we want. It will undoubtedly make no difference whatsoever. It is a waste of time, money, and energy. The ccw situation in this state is not going to change. The NRA sucks, they've pretty much washed their hands of NJ. Christie will NOT change the ccw laws. It is just not going to happen. Your best bet is to move to another state if you are interested in carrying a firearm.

 

If every single person in the state of NJ wrote a letter pleading to our congressmen and women to pass a ccw law, it would still not happen. . . politicians make up their minds and do what they want.

 

Again, just my 2 cents.

[tommy3rd 132]

I think I know what it will take...

$$$$$$$$$$! Lots and lots of it. The bottom line

is all the politicians care about is money and getting re-elected.

[Malsua 1,422]

Start by moving to a different state. NJ will not change unless there is a watershed event, something like Luby massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_massacre

 

It's too bad people have to die needlessly before positive change happens but that's what it's going to take.

[NJ609 22]

Move to America.

 

You can also get a FL, VA or UT non resident permit and carry when you visit America though.

[GoNRA 12]

well to answer your question we have to vote in more pro 2nd amendment officials.. Steve Lonegan was one, but he didn't win the primary.. So until we vote in some pro 2nd amendment politicians we are SOL.

[Malsua 1,422]

:shifty: :liar:

 

.

 

Did you happen to notice his join date? Granted the forum started only a few months prior, but you can cut the man some slack.

[GoNRA 12]

granted..

[KpdPipes 388]

Simple fact is that Gun Owners are a minority here, i know a nuber of 2.5 million has been floated but i have ZERO idea of where that comes from. Secondly, NJ gun owners are pretty much factionalized. You have the Hunters Who dont care what happens to handguns and EBR's as logn as they can hunt deer, you have the trap?Skeet/Sporting Clay/s crows who dont care what happens to any else's guns...as long as theirs are left alone, you have guys like us who dont want to see ANYTHING banned for anyone, and you have the rest of the citizenry, who, sadly for the most part, BELIEVE THE POLITICIANS AND MEDIA with every "Guns are bad mmmkay?" story out there. What CCW is going to take is someone whith a whole buttload of money that can throw it away on lawsuits, and in the end, the Politicians will end up putting it on the ballot...spun so that it will be virtually IMPOSSIBLE to win...just so they can say "See??? the People dont want unregulated CCW here in NJ?"

[coldsolderjoint 84]

Simple fact is that Gun Owners are a minority here, i know a nuber of 2.5 million has been floated but i have ZERO idea of where that comes from. Secondly, NJ gun owners are pretty much factionalized. You have the Hunters Who dont care what happens to handguns and EBR's as logn as they can hunt deer, you have the trap?Skeet/Sporting Clay/s crows who dont care what happens to any else's guns...as long as theirs are left alone, you have guys like us who dont want to see ANYTHING banned for anyone, and you have the rest of the citizenry, who, sadly for the most part, BELIEVE THE POLITICIANS AND MEDIA with every "Guns are bad mmmkay?" story out there. What CCW is going to take is someone whith a whole buttload of money that can throw it away on lawsuits, and in the end, the Politicians will end up putting it on the ballot...spun so that it will be virtually IMPOSSIBLE to win...just so they can say "See??? the People dont want unregulated CCW here in NJ?"

 

You also have all of the old guys with a .357 in the night stand who haven't shot it for 15 years. They have their gun and don't care about any more.

[SpecOps2087 3]

Fact of the matter is your not going to change the attitudes of adults. If / when the day comes that children grow up in NJ with firearms, then CCW will be realistic. Seeing as how we are one of the bluest states in the nation (not that ever liberal is against guns, quite the opposite really -- it's just you have the farrrrr left wingers that want to ban everything and tax everyone 100%) I don't see it happening.

[GoNRA 12]

Im praying the november election will bring us some good candidates all across New Jersey.. I can be optimistic can't I?

[Malsua 1,422]

 

You also have all of the old guys with a .357 in the night stand who haven't shot it for 15 years. They have their gun and don't care about any more.

 

I have several neighbors that fit into that category.

 

They have stopped over when I'm loading the truck to go to the range...they make open ended commitments to come one day, but never do. My two closest neighbors own one gun each. A .357.

[NJgunowner86 0]

In my opinion, we can call, write, email, sign a million petitions or even protest all we want. It will undoubtedly make no difference whatsoever. It is a waste of time, money, and energy. The ccw situation in this state is not going to change. The NRA sucks, they've pretty much washed their hands of NJ. Christie will NOT change the ccw laws. It is just not going to happen. Your best bet is to move to another state if you are interested in carrying a firearm.

 

If every single person in the state of NJ wrote a letter pleading to our congressmen and women to pass a ccw law, it would still not happen. . . politicians make up their minds and do what they want.

 

Again, just my 2 cents.

 

Well said.

 

NJ's laws will be much harder to challenge, as they actually fit within the scope of the Supreme Court's interpretation of Heller.

 

Why? Because NJ does have CCW on the books. They have a whole process hashed out and you can get one. You have about the same chance of getting one as the earth getting hit by a comet too. Come to think of it, comet is more likely actually.

 

NJ also does not have an "Assault Weapons" ban and you can own a machine gun in NJ as well. Just need the right license for it. Who gets THAT license? I'm willing to bet that not a single one has ever been issued.

 

Heller stated that there is an individual right to own a gun but "reasonable regulation" is ok. Therefore NJ's ridiculous may-issue-to-politicians-famous people-and rich people system is going to take a very strict interpretation of McDonald and possibly even another Supreme Court challenge altogether as well. It has a very firm legal hold whether we like that or not.

 

And even then, even if NJ's may-issue CCW turned shall issue, there still is several miles of red tape to navigate. Why? Because any time you have a permit system you have to deal with beaurcrats, police chiefs, and judges, and the ones in NJ don't like guns very much.

 

I'm not sure if anyone else here has ever had an NJ CCW, I did while working as a security guard. The process is almost $200 in fees/qualifying, it requires visit to the state police (in which you simply spend an hour in a waiting room and fill out a form they could have just mailed you) designed to make you have to get away from work to do so, another visit to be fingerprinted at a 3rd party agency once again smack dab in the middle of a day, the permit itself gets mailed all over the state during the process. We all had the same permit for the same reason and yet most of us waited 4-6 months for it to come back, one guy waited 14 months, another waited 4 weeks cause he knew someone. Because NJ gives the issuing judge power to put whatever restrictions on it he feels like, some of us could only carry certain guns based on serial number. Some could carry whatever guns they wanted. A couple guys from Middlesex county had transportation requirements on their permits different than state law. Some guys from Morris were able to carry to and from work too. One guy was limited to only carrying a specific gun with its serial number misspelled, and therefore his permit was a coaster. Some people in Passaic and Middlesex had to also go before a judge as well in person (ever sat in county court waiting 3 1/2 hours for the judge to call your name?) which also kills an entire night. Mind you all this trouble and this was just as armored car guys and the permit's only valid on the job and they gave us this much trouble.

 

Compare that to when I mailed in $26 and a form to Centre County and 12 calendar days later I had a PA CCW valid for 5 years in hand. (Was able to obtain PA CCW because I had an NJ CCW)

 

I should also clarify NJ makes no distinction between concealed or open carry, it's just "permit to carry" so judges could cite the danger of people open carrying (which is even disliked in a lot of parts of states where it is legal) as a danger to public safety and probably deny permits right on that.

 

What makes you think if NJ DID get shall-issue CCW, the judges and chiefs wouldn't just make it take a year to get one (and it's only valid for 2 years and plenty of us who waited a long time had pre-dated permits that were expiring a year after they came back) and have the system setup so you're basically always undergoing the CCW process. And at the end of all that the judge can just slap a bunch of debilitating restrictions on it anyway.

 

To have actual shall-issue CCW with a realistic issue time and no games played, is going to take a massive legal overhaul from the outside. Because it's not coming from the inside. Sorry.

 

Like he said, you wanna carry a gun? PA, VA, and VT aren't too far away.

[KpdPipes 388]

In my opinion, we can call, write, email, sign a million petitions or even protest all we want. It will undoubtedly make no difference whatsoever. It is a waste of time, money, and energy. The ccw situation in this state is not going to change. The NRA sucks, they've pretty much washed their hands of NJ. Christie will NOT change the ccw laws. It is just not going to happen. Your best bet is to move to another state if you are interested in carrying a firearm.

 

If every single person in the state of NJ wrote a letter pleading to our congressmen and women to pass a ccw law, it would still not happen. . . politicians make up their minds and do what they want.

 

Again, just my 2 cents.

 

Well said.

 

NJ's laws will be much harder to challenge, as they actually fit within the scope of the Supreme Court's interpretation of Heller.

 

Why? Because NJ does have CCW on the books. They have a whole process hashed out and you can get one. You have about the same chance of getting one as the earth getting hit by a comet too. Come to think of it, comet is more likely actually.

 

NJ also does not have an "Assault Weapons" ban and you can own a machine gun in NJ as well. Just need the right license for it. Who gets THAT license? I'm willing to bet that not a single one has ever been issued.

Heller stated that there is an individual right to own a gun but "reasonable regulation" is ok. Therefore NJ's ridiculous may-issue-to-politicians-famous people-and rich people system is going to take a very strict interpretation of McDonald and possibly even another Supreme Court challenge altogether as well. It has a very firm legal hold whether we like that or not.

 

And even then, even if NJ's may-issue CCW turned shall issue, there still is several miles of red tape to navigate. Why? Because any time you have a permit system you have to deal with beaurcrats, police chiefs, and judges, and the ones in NJ don't like guns very much.

 

I'm not sure if anyone else here has ever had an NJ CCW, I did while working as a security guard. The process is almost $200 in fees/qualifying, it requires visit to the state police (in which you simply spend an hour in a waiting room and fill out a form they could have just mailed you) designed to make you have to get away from work to do so, another visit to be fingerprinted at a 3rd party agency once again smack dab in the middle of a day, the permit itself gets mailed all over the state during the process. We all had the same permit for the same reason and yet most of us waited 4-6 months for it to come back, one guy waited 14 months, another waited 4 weeks cause he knew someone. Because NJ gives the issuing judge power to put whatever restrictions on it he feels like, some of us could only carry certain guns based on serial number. Some could carry whatever guns they wanted. A couple guys from Middlesex county had transportation requirements on their permits different than state law. Some guys from Morris were able to carry to and from work too. One guy was limited to only carrying a specific gun with its serial number misspelled, and therefore his permit was a coaster. Some people in Passaic and Middlesex had to also go before a judge as well in person (ever sat in county court waiting 3 1/2 hours for the judge to call your name?) which also kills an entire night. Mind you all this trouble and this was just as armored car guys and the permit's only valid on the job and they gave us this much trouble.

 

Compare that to when I mailed in $26 and a form to Centre County and 12 calendar days later I had a PA CCW valid for 5 years in hand. (Was able to obtain PA CCW because I had an NJ CCW)

 

I should also clarify NJ makes no distinction between concealed or open carry, it's just "permit to carry" so judges could cite the danger of people open carrying (which is even disliked in a lot of parts of states where it is legal) as a danger to public safety and probably deny permits right on that.

 

What makes you think if NJ DID get shall-issue CCW, the judges and chiefs wouldn't just make it take a year to get one (and it's only valid for 2 years and plenty of us who waited a long time had pre-dated permits that were expiring a year after they came back) and have the system setup so you're basically always undergoing the CCW process. And at the end of all that the judge can just slap a bunch of debilitating restrictions on it anyway.

 

To have actual shall-issue CCW with a realistic issue time and no games played, is going to take a massive legal overhaul from the outside. Because it's not coming from the inside. Sorry.

 

Like he said, you wanna carry a gun? PA, VA, and VT aren't too far away.

 

 

The same tyoes of Politically connected people that can get CCW's. There are some out there.

[NJgunowner86 0]

The same tyoes of Politically connected people that can get CCW's. There are some out there.

 

I'm sorry, I should have specified. I'm willing to bet one has never been issued to any of the peasant folk in NJ.

[KpdPipes 388]

The same tyoes of Politically connected people that can get CCW's. There are some out there.

 

I'm sorry, I should have specified. I'm willing to bet one has never been issued to any of the peasant folk in NJ.

 

The HARD part isnt getting the permit for where you live necessarily...the difficulty lies in the fact you need a CLEO signoff for every Municipality you have to travel through anytime you travel with it. Let's say we're talking about me. I live in keansburg, but I shoot in Jackson. if I were permitted to shoot FA at CJRPC (whhich is generally prohibited BTW), and I could get my local CLEO to signoff on the form 4 as well as the state permit to meet the requirements of the NFA as well as the NJ Statutes, I would STILL need to get another CLEO letter from each Municipality between myself and Jackson along the route I take to the range. NFA is Statutorily permissable....but FUNCTIONALLY banned by the way the Laws are written now. Oh and for the record, BEFORE 2C, (Pre 1981 IIRC) I belive it was much more accessible under Title 2A, which was the criminal code at the time. Rscalzo might know better, i believe he started under 2A.

[NJgunowner86 0]

teh same tyoes of Politically connected people that can get CCW's. There are some out there.

 

I'm sorry, I should have specified. I'm willing to bet one has never been issued to any of teh peasant folk in NJ.

 

teh HARD part isnt getting teh permit for where you live necessarily...teh difficulty lies in teh fact you need a CLEO signoff for every Municipality you have to travel through anytime you travel with it. Let's say we're talking about me. I live in keansburg, but I shootz in Jackson. if I were permitted to shootz FA at CJRPC (whhich is generally prohibited BTW), and I could get my local CLEO to signoff on teh form 4 as well as teh state permit to meet teh requirements of teh NFA as well as teh NJ Statutes, I would STILL need to get another CLEO letter from each Municipality between myself and Jackson along teh route I take to teh range. NFA is Statutorily permissable....but FUNCTIONALLY banned by teh way teh Laws are written now. Oh and for teh record, BEFORE 2C, (Pre 1981 IIRC) I belive it was much more accessible under Title 2A, which was teh criminal code at teh time. Rscalzo might know better, i believe he started under 2A.

 

That's exactly what I was getting at with my first post. These laws we have in NJ are, from a legal standpoint, more powerful than a ban. At least a ban is straightforward and can be challenged in (relatively) simple terms. When you have some maze of beaurocracy and such to navigate through, it's much harder to challenge in court, cause they can just say "well, if ya want a _____ go get the permit for it"

 

To quote Thomas Jefferson "The power to tax and regulate is the power to destroy"

[ccphilly1984 0]

Move to America.

 

You can also get a FL, VA or UT non resident permit and carry when you visit America though.

 

 

+1 pa welcomes you... provided you aren't a mets fan

[Matt 0]

Start by moving to a different state. NJ will not change unless there is a watershed event, something like Luby massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_massacre

 

It's too bad people have to die needlessly before positive change happens but that's what it's going to take.

 

I think that in NJ an event like the Luby massacre would be spun as a need for MORE gun control. You would know better than me but I think the Luby massacre is what spurred Texas to go to a shall issue system, but honestly I think it would have the opposite effect here.

 

EDIT: Just read the wiki, looks like it did in fact spur shall issue - wish NJ was more like Texas!

[matty 810]

If a Luby's or San Y McD's or LAPD gunfight w/robbers type of thing hapened in NJ, Tubby's gun hating AG, Dow would be sending the NJSP door to door to confiscate everything.

[LorenzoS 100]

I disagree with the notion that the anti gun laws here in NJ are the fault of politicians. It's the people, not the politicians. The sad truth is, this state has no culture of firearms like in most other states. Most of my fellow citizens here in Bergen County simply consider guns to be evil. If you're lucky at least they think of it in limited cases to be a necessary evil, but an evil nonetheless.

 

Guns are bad, that's all. Less guns good. More guns bad. Harder to get gun good, easier to get gun bad. I do not have any hope for rational CCW laws here in NJ. Ever. The only solution is to move to another state when my other circumstances permit.

[mikelets456 78]

I disagree with the notion that the anti gun laws here in NJ are the fault of politicians. It's the people, not the politicians. The sad truth is, this state has no culture of firearms like in most other states. Most of my fellow citizens here in Bergen County simply consider guns to be evil. If you're lucky at least they think of it in limited cases to be a necessary evil, but an evil nonetheless.

 

Guns are bad, that's all. Less guns good. More guns bad. Harder to get gun good, easier to get gun bad. I do not have any hope for rational CCW laws here in NJ. Ever. The only solution is to move to another state when my other circumstances permit.

 

The cure for that... bring people to the range any chance you get. I have no idea how many people are "converted" after putting a few rounds at a target 7 yards away. People get hooked QUICKLY!

 

I'll say this though, people/friends who were anti-gun just a few years back now understand the importance and reason of the 2A. Many, many friends that NEVER considered guns in the past now have their FID and bought some shot guns. It is a start.. Like I said, the LEO who issued my handgun permits said "before BO he issued 2 a week, now it is 5 a day".

 

Keep preaching, but more importantly, bring them to the range!

[GoNRA 12]

if this forum grows another 9000 members, maybe we can start a 1 dollar a month contribution to maksim, and put our money where our mouths are. With the money we can put together a nice little pot to help contribute to pro 2A candidates, or something along those lines. Speed up the process by getting the forum out their by mouth, or by wearing gear or bumper stickers to big events in NJ. Sporting events, concerts, raceways, ranges, police stations (when you go to fill out your paperwork), townhall meetings, ect.

[singh073 0]

I think we should build a case against New Jersey in the sense that even though the State has CCW with "May Issue" all CCW permits that are applied for are not granted unless there is a political connection or other agenda.

 

If we can prove that there is more than meets the eye to NJ "May Issue" CCW laws and our rights are being violated we could have a case.

 

I wonder of CCW permits are public documents that we can access to see on what accounts the state has allowed them. I think that would be the first step.

[BCeagle 12]

I think we should build a case against New Jersey in the sense that even though the State has CCW with "May Issue" all CCW permits that are applied for are not granted unless there is a political connection or other agenda.

 

If we can prove that there is more than meets the eye to NJ "May Issue" CCW laws and our rights are being violated we could have a case.

 

I wonder of CCW permits are public documents that we can access to see on what accounts the state has allowed them. I think that would be the first step.

 

 

We just need to show its a subjective and not objective criteria. I can imagine getting a list of names during discovery and checking off the politically connected ones.

[ccphilly1984 0]

well... today made your case a little bit better... i'd say pick a poster child and everyone chips in for their legal fees...

[djg0770 481]

+1 pa welcomes you... provided you aren't a mets fan

 

 

Where's that finger smiley??

[joejaxx 38]

+1 pa welcomes you... provided you aren't a mets fan

 

 

Where's that finger smiley??

 

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