Probable Cause for a Search and going to the Range

[BCeagle 12]

Was talking about consenting to a search on another forum and wondered about this qualifies as probable cause when I head up to Cherry Ridge. Is it probable cause and allow a State Trooper to search the vehicle if he sees either

 

a) My membership tag around my neck (never wear it for that reason)

b) Sees the target frame laying flat in the back on my truck.

 

Its pretty obvious I probably have a firearm but none of those things individually really show any probable cause I am commiting a crime. Then again all guns are illegal in NJ unless you fal under an exception (cant wait or that law to be found unconstitutional)

[Shane45 807]

Technically no. Neither.

[mikeyboyeee 66]

No and I would absolutely NEVER consent to a vehicle search under any circumstance at any time PERIOD!

[BCeagle 12]

No and I would absolutely NEVER consent to a vehicle search under any circumstance at any time PERIOD!

 

I completely agree, some guy said he did it because he thought it would be quicker/easier and got screamed at. I would never give consent, there are so many reasons not to. You should never give up a right.

 

From our point of view also, do you really trust a policeman to know the difference between an illegal firearm and your evil but cool looking AR. Why risk it.

[BCeagle 12]

Just following up how crazy our state makes us.

 

_______________________________________________________________________________

Originally Posted By Tom488:

In most states, no, that would not be enough to establish PC, as evidence of firearms possession isn't usually in and of itself, a crime.

 

However, here in NJ, possession of a firearm is generally illegal, unless you possess an FID, or a permit to carry. Combine that with 2C:39-2b:

 

When the legality of a person's conduct under this chapter depends on his possession of a license or permit or on his having registered with or given notice to a particular person or agency, it shall be presumed that he does not possess such a license or permit or has not registered or given the required notice, until he establishes the contrary.

 

 

So, can it be assumed that someone who appears to be going to a shooting range may be in possession of a firearm? And, can is be assumed (as per 2C:39-2b) that the person does not possess the proper ID cards/permits to legally possess said firearm?

 

I don't know... but I can see the argument being made.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply:

Ok, it would be reasonable in that situation if the officer/trooper asked if you had a firearm in the vehicle. If you said no, other questioning would ensue. But if you said yes, they should ask to see your FID and you'd be on your way after you present it.

[M4BGRINGO 139]

I was also once told that if you are asked to get out of your vehicle you now basically gave them permission to search the vehicle. I don't know the laws, but was told this by someone who has been through it.

[Shane45 807]

You can be asked to do anything. There is a difference between being asked and being ordered.

[Shane45 807]

Even if you are arrested there are limits for a warentless search of your vehicle abscent PC. This is usually confined to the Search Incident to Arrest which is your person and the area of the vehicle under your immediate control. BUT theres always a catch. Your car will now be impounded which means it will be "processed" at which point all items found in the vehicle will be inventoried....

[Vlad G 345]

BTW, if I remember correctly there was something the NJ supreme court got right about this. If someone has probable cause they can search your car. If they don't they can ask. Saying "no, you may not" does not however constitute probable cause, the officer can't just say "If you don't want me to search your car, you must have something to hide so now I have probable cause". For the record my wife was pulled over once for her pro-gun bumper stickers and the officers where quite aggressive about asking her and her friend who has guns, are there guns in the car, etc but never searched her car. They didn't pull her over for a traffic violation or anything and they didn't issue her a ticket for anything, they pulled her over because they saw her stickers at a light. They did however state that "All those gun bumper stickers make us nervous and uncomfortable", my wife laughed.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

I was also once told that if you are asked to get out of your vehicle you now basically gave them permission to search the vehicle. I don't know the laws, but was told this by someone who has been through it.

 

That's ridiculous, and doesn't even make sense. If you are asked or ordered to step out of your vehicle, takes the keys with you and lock your doors.

 

I'm pro-active during traffic stops.. since i'm aware of most of my rights i keep the cops on there toes, not how they usually do things that's for sure. I also have a tendency to waste their time if the stop is unwarranted. I know where i keep all my papers and ID but i will usually waste a couple mins pretending to look for them. It also serves to break up some of the tension of the initial stop. During this time, i ask why i am being stopped, this gives me a good idea of what intentions the police officer has. When there not up front about why they stopped you, chances are they are looking for something.. which can be a very dangerous situation. Cops are trained to investigate and interrogate, the best way to diffuse this is to answer a question with another question, this serves to create a balance in the interrogation aspect(just don't be sarcastic). I also turn the recorder on my phone on. I have never butt heads with the Police, and being hostile is a very bad idea, but there are ways to make sure your rights are not violated while being calm and respectful, even if they do not show the same. When you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to loose, but i always exercise my rights.

[JackDaWack 2,895]

BTW, if I remember correctly there was something the NJ supreme court got right about this. If someone has probable cause they can search your car. If they don't they can ask. Saying "no, you may not" does not however constitute probable cause, the officer can't just say "If you don't want me to search your car, you must have something to hide so now I have probable cause". For the record my wife was pulled over once for her pro-gun bumper stickers and the officers where quite aggressive about asking her and her friend who has guns, are there guns in the car, etc but never searched her car. They didn't pull her over for a traffic violation or anything and they didn't issue her a ticket for anything, they pulled her over because they saw her stickers at a light. They did however state that "All those gun bumper stickers make us nervous and uncomfortable", my wife laughed.

I would have politely asked for there badge numbers and supervisors name, then asked.. is this a legal reason to stop a vehicle(bumper stickers), is this consider profiling? I would have asked for the stations Phone number, and the procedure for writing a formal complaint of harassment. Of course being polite and respectful. They will get the idea that your not really interested in pressing charges but u just want them to F off.

[Vlad G 345]

I would have done exactly that. My wife just casually laughed at them and treated them with the implication that they were being childish, while remaining polite. She is also all of 5ft tall, so she must have gotten inside their OODA loop.

[mikeyboyeee 66]

Just following up how crazy our state makes us.

 

_______________________________________________________________________________

Originally Posted By Tom488:

In most states, no, that would not be enough to establish PC, as evidence of firearms possession isn't usually in and of itself, a crime.

 

However, here in NJ, possession of a firearm is generally illegal, unless you possess an FID, or a permit to carry. Combine that with 2C:39-2b:

 

When the legality of a person's conduct under this chapter depends on his possession of a license or permit or on his having registered with or given notice to a particular person or agency, it shall be presumed that he does not possess such a license or permit or has not registered or given the required notice, until he establishes the contrary.

 

 

So, can it be assumed that someone who appears to be going to a shooting range may be in possession of a firearm? And, can is be assumed (as per 2C:39-2b) that the person does not possess the proper ID cards/permits to legally possess said firearm?

 

I don't know... but I can see the argument being made.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reply:

Ok, it would be reasonable in that situation if the officer/trooper asked if you had a firearm in the vehicle. If you said no, other questioning would ensue. But if you said yes, they should ask to see your FID and you'd be on your way after you present it.

 

 

You don't need to have your FPID with you to transport a gun to the range.

You do not even need one to legally own a firearm in more then 1 instance.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

 

I also turn the recorder on my phone on.

 

I am not positive, but there are states that allow a conversation to be recorded when only 1 person needs to know that a recoding is in progress but I do not think NJ is one of them states. I would look into that if that is what you do just so your not doing something that can get you in trouble.

 

Harry

[Malsua 1,422]

I am not positive, but there are states that allow a conversation to be recorded when only 1 person needs to know that a recoding is in progress but I do not think NJ is one of them states. I would look into that if that is what you do just so your not doing something that can get you in trouble.

 

Harry

 

Two party notification is required in PA but not in NJ. NJ is a single party notification state...that would be you when you turn on the recorder.

 

http://www.rcfp.org/taping/states.html

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Two party notification is required in PA but not in NJ. NJ is a single party notification state...that would be you when you turn on the recorder.

 

http://www.rcfp.org/taping/states.html

 

Good info, thanks for sharing.

 

Harry

[LorenzoS 100]

This is a ridiculous notion. Owning a firearm is a constitutionally protected activity. There is no rational basis whatsoever that engaging in a legal activity is probable cause to suspect you might be committing a crime.

[halbautomatisch 60]

Was talking about consenting to a search on another forum and wondered about this qualifies as probable cause when I head up to Cherry Ridge. Is it probable cause and allow a State Trooper to search the vehicle if he sees either

 

a) My membership tag around my neck (never wear it for that reason)

b) Sees the target frame laying flat in the back on my truck.

 

Its pretty obvious I probably have a firearm but none of those things individually really show any probable cause I am commiting a crime. Then again all guns are illegal in NJ unless you fal under an exception (cant wait or that law to be found unconstitutional)

When you say would these items give the police probable cause, I don't see how they could. Probable cause implies that the police observe something that itself is illegal (contraband) or could be approaching illegal (alcohol on your breath). Possessing a range badge or a target frame is not in itself illegal and does not mean that you have guns in your vehicle. If the police did a warrantless search based on this alone, without consent, anything found during that search would almost certainly be thrown out as evidence in a court proceeding.

 

You can drive home from the liquor store with an unopened bottle of Vodka, but that alone would not give the police PC to give you a sobriety test.

 

I'm sure some LEOs can explain it better than me.

[halbautomatisch 60]

BTW, if I remember correctly there was something the NJ supreme court got right about this. If someone has probable cause they can search your car. If they don't they can ask. Saying "no, you may not" does not however constitute probable cause, the officer can't just say "If you don't want me to search your car, you must have something to hide so now I have probable cause". For the record my wife was pulled over once for her pro-gun bumper stickers and the officers where quite aggressive about asking her and her friend who has guns, are there guns in the car, etc but never searched her car. They didn't pull her over for a traffic violation or anything and they didn't issue her a ticket for anything, they pulled her over because they saw her stickers at a light. They did however state that "All those gun bumper stickers make us nervous and uncomfortable", my wife laughed.

A friend of mine when he was 18 or so had a bumper sticker that read "Insured by Smith & Wesson". He got stopped by the cops for some reason and they asked him if he had any guns in his truck, he said no. They told him and his passengers to get out of the truck and proceeded to search it without his consent or PC, they found nothing and sent him on his way. I asked a cop buddy of mine about this being an illegal search, and he said it was, and he speculated that they would have likely seized anything illicit they found and let him go. Their attitude was that it would have been "one more gun off the street".

[BCeagle 12]

A friend of mine when he was 18 or so had a bumper sticker that read "Insured by Smith & Wesson". He got stopped by the cops for some reason and they asked him if he had any guns in his truck, he said no. They told him and his passengers to get out of the truck and proceeded to search it without his consent or PC, they found nothing and sent him on his way. I asked a cop buddy of mine about this being an illegal search, and he said it was, and he speculated that they would have likely seized anything illicit they found and let him go. Their attitude was that it would have been "one more gun off the street".

 

I could see a kid being afraid but that BS, but with age comes confidence and I would have asked for badge #s etc. you need to file a formal complaint in those instances regardless of the result. And I wouldnt be so sure they would have let them go if they fuond anything, its really easy for a cop to lie and say they saw something.

[BCeagle 12]

As for taping police stops check this video of Stossel out:

 

 

Skip to 2:00 for something really scary and BS. Thats a big gun to be drawing as you exit your car and are not in uniform, I would have flipped.

[Cemeterys Gun Blob 165]

Was talking about consenting to a search on another forum and wondered about this qualifies as probable cause when I head up to Cherry Ridge. Is it probable cause and allow a State Trooper to search the vehicle if he sees either

 

a) My membership tag around my neck (never wear it for that reason)

b) Sees the target frame laying flat in the back on my truck.

 

Its pretty obvious I probably have a firearm but none of those things individually really show any probable cause I am commiting a crime. Then again all guns are illegal in NJ unless you fal under an exception (cant wait or that law to be found unconstitutional)

 

Hmmm....some sort of wooden frame in the flatbed of a truck. LEO will probably think construction of some sort.....

 

One good thing about NJ, firearms ownership is so underground, nobody knows what gun bags/cases even look like. I have to park on the street, and one day during the week, I had to load up the war wagon for a weekend shoot out of state, and well, my road was closed for street construction, and a LEO was right next to my car while I loaded it up. Nothing was said other than normal polite pleasantries about the morning/weather. Not one second look at my luggage. Even guided me as I backed up out of the construction zone.

 

Point is, 9 out of 10 times, they won't know what they're looking at, unless it says NRA on it, and then again, who knows, maybe they'll think of the National Restaurant Association.....

[BCeagle 12]

Hmmm....some sort of wooden frame in the flatbed of a truck. LEO will probably think construction of some sort.....

 

One good thing about NJ, firearms ownership is so underground, nobody knows what gun bags/cases even look like. I have to park on the street, and one day during the week, I had to load up the war wagon for a weekend shoot out of state, and well, my road was closed for street construction, and a LEO was right next to my car while I loaded it up. Nothing was said other than normal polite pleasantries about the morning/weather. Not one second look at my luggage. Even guided me as I backed up out of the construction zone.

 

Point is, 9 out of 10 times, they won't know what they're looking at, unless it says NRA on it, and then again, who knows, maybe they'll think of the National Restaurant Association.....

 

You are right about gun ownership being underground. My daughter had a play date and the 2 mothers hit it off. On the 2nd playdate the other mother told my wife "I dont want to sound like a hick, but just so you know we have guns in the house." My wife who is told not to volunteer what I have was like "no problem, so do we" I dont belive in advertising what I have, but in this state the woman obviously felt like a minority and was sheepish about it.

[BCeagle 12]

By the way, even if you give consent, if you start feeling like you mad a mistake, you can always withdraw it and they have to stop.

 

To search the whole car without probably cause they will need a warrant and who wants to go through that.

[Vlad G 345]

To add dose of realism here, most (if not all) police officers I've met have been professional and not bent on harassing people unless they honestly think there was a crime committed. I know that there are some who can get drunk on power and all that, but I shoot matches with countless law enforcement folks, have a couple in the family, and they are great guys. Sure, abuses happen, but I think in general if you treat them like humans they tend to treat you the same. I think the guys that were puzzled by my wife's bumper stickers are the exception, not the rule. Or at least I hope so.

[M4BGRINGO 139]

They (LEO) get to deal with the scum of society on a daily basis so I can understand when they have a bad day. I try to keep my cool when I get pulled-over, no sense being a wise-a**, what's it going to get you........ I've been given breaks and appreciated them, don't look a gift horse in the mouth!

[The Dark Knight 11]

The side of the road is public property. You have no right to privacy in public, only in private. Yes, states have laws that prevent you from wiretapping your home/business or infiltrating someone else's etc. Yes, jackbooted thug cops often don't like their awful behavior exposed to the public (see: Youtube). Fact remains there is no expectation of privacy on the side of a highway. There are also some very cool recorders out there that look like keyless entry remotes for a keychain, and of course every phone made in the last 5 years or so.

 

If the cops aren't doing anything wrong, I'm sure they don't mind being recorded right? After all that's what they say to you...

[tbtrout 141]

To add dose of realism here, most (if not all) police officers I've met have been professional and not bent on harassing people unless they honestly think there was a crime committed. I know that there are some who can get drunk on power and all that, but I shoot matches with countless law enforcement folks, have a couple in the family, and they are great guys. Sure, abuses happen, but I think in general if you treat them like humans they tend to treat you the same. I think the guys that were puzzled by my wife's bumper stickers are the exception, not the rule. Or at least I hope so.

This has been my experience as well. I have found that everytime I was pulled over the Officer treated me as I treated them. My initial actions dictated their comfort level as they approached. I drive a van so I always turn on my interior lights at night ( in a car too )and always roll down my window and place both hands out side in plain sight day or night. The one time I was detained for the evening was for being a wise ass and calling a Mam a Sir. But she really did look and sound like a guy. It all went down hill from there, I just could not help myself.

[mikeyboyeee 66]

This has been my experience as well. I have found that everytime I was pulled over the Officer treated me as I treated them. My initial actions dictated their comfort level as they approached. I drive a van so I always turn on my interior lights at night ( in a car too )and always roll down my window and place both hands out side in plain sight day or night. The one time I was detained for the evening was for being a wise a** and calling a Mam a Sir. But she really did look and sound like a guy. It all went down hill from there, I just could not help myself.

 

 

Actually, I have not found this to be the case.

Every time I have been pulled over, the cops have been complete dicks no matter how courteously I treated them. ONLY after showing a few PBA cards did the bug crawl from out their a**.

[tbtrout 141]

Actually, I have not found this to be the case.

Every time I have been pulled over, the cops have been complete dicks no matter how courteously I treated them. ONLY after showing a few PBA cards did the bug crawl from out their a**.

Damn, sucks to be you. Do you have a bumper sticker that reads harrass me? At least the PBA cards worked.