Riddle me this...

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Let's say I someone goes into PA and buys some magazines. These magazines have a capacity greater than 15 rounds and are illegal in NJ. The visitor in this free state knows that they cannot possess these mags in his crappy home state... so he takes a rod and welds it to the magazines' floor plate to block it at 15 rounds. He can still disassemble the magazines (remove the spring and follower) to clean them by removing the floor plate, but given the components, it's capacity is always 15 rounds. He can remove the welded rod with tools, or a hammer, or with some leverage, but it's not something he can do on the fly.

 

If he buys a replacement floor plate, then he can restore it's capacity to 15+... but he has none in NJ among his possession.

 

Is this illegal?

[henrym 19]

If i remember correctly, the magazine needs to be permanently altered to the lower capacity. I think this is why midwestPX pins the floor plates.

[n4p226r 105]

what is to stop you from popping out the pin though? i think the true answer is, nobody knows. i would like to see a full list of who makes 15rd or even 10rd AR mags and what they do to modify them. all i know about are midwestPX and PK90

[henrym 19]

what is to stop you from popping out the pin though? i think the true answer is, nobody knows. i would like to see a full list of who makes 15rd or even 10rd AR mags and what they do to modify them. all i know about are midwestPX and PK90

 

I couldn't agree more. The permanently modified language is a grey area that seems to be open to individual interpretation. Just the way I like my laws...

[MikeL417 33]

My belief is that it is not legal. It needs to be blocked permanently from any type of removal or altercation for the reasons posted above. That is gray matter and 100% something you don't want to risk and find out the hard way. If it is not legal in NJ you're looking at a VERY hefty felony charge and bye bye guns forever. Don't risk it. Weld the suckers shut. Or even better leave/sell 'em in Penn.

Mike

[henrym 19]

My belief is that it is not legal. It needs to be blocked permanently from any type of removal or altercation for the reasons posted above. That is gray matter and 100% something you don't want to risk and find out the hard way. If it is not legal in NJ you're looking at a VERY hefty felony charge and bye bye guns forever. Don't risk it. Weld the suckers shut. Or even better leave/sell 'em in Penn.

Mike

 

While I agree that the felony charge surrounding modifying your magazines is not worth the risk for me, it would be a nice change to have some sort of concrete answer about what is and is not legal. Some consider a rivet permanent, but as an example, a drill bit can un-permanent that rather quickly without any major damage to the magazine. All welds aren't equal either. A spot weld can be broken with enough force, but full bead would be much harder to break without destroying the magazine. Not trying to be argumentative, just seeking a real solution.

[vjf915 456]

I don't think it would be logical if that were the case. When you remove the floor plate and spring, it is no longer a functional magazine, and will not function unless you replace them with a regular spring and floor plate. If you do not possess the standard spring and floor plate, you should not meet the requirements for constructive possession.

 

With a rod welded to the floor plate, that should be considered permanent. Welding a compensator is considered permanent, so why wouldn't welding a rod on the floor plate follow the same line of thought?

 

I'm not saying that this is the case, I'm discussing why it wouldn't make sense if what you guys are saying is actually the case.

[henrym 19]

I don't think it would be logical if that were the case. When you remove the floor plate and spring, it is no longer a functional magazine, and will not function unless you replace them with a regular spring and floor plate. If you do not possess the standard spring and floor plate, you should not meet the requirements for constructive possession.

 

With a rod welded to the floor plate, that should be considered permanent. Welding a compensator is considered permanent, so why wouldn't welding a rod on the floor plate follow the same line of thought?

 

I'm not saying that this is the case, I'm discussing why it wouldn't make sense if what you guys are saying is actually the case.

 

I feel like its just going to boil down to how much work it would take to undo it.

 

It reminds me of the california bullet button on an ar. Since the magazine release needs a tool to operate (the bullet) its not considered detachable. Having the tool guideline let them know exactly what is and is not legal. Its too bad we are not afforded that luxury.

[vjf915 456]

I feel like its just going to boil down to how much work it would take to undo it.

I agree. That's why I compared it to the welded compensator. They are both permanently attached in the same fashion, so I don't understand why one would be acceptable and the other not. And again, not having a regular floor plate would mean you don't meet any constructive possession laws. So I guess I don't see how it would be illegal.

[Jon 264]

You're over-thinking the issue. If a Police Officer ever had a reason to check your magazine's capacity, would it fit more than 15 rounds? Can the magazine be disassembled and re-assembled with only parts that YOU own to accept more than 15 rounds? If the answer to each is no, then don't sweat it.

[hopper 36]

You also have to add the fact that people at your range / shooting club will see its a large capacity mag and give you a hard time , happened to me with a 25 rd mag for my S&W 15-22 that is permanenty pinned at 15 , all they see is a illegal large capacity mag and dont realize its permanently pinned to only hold 15 . So as much as you and i know it would be legal alot of others dont and wouldnt see it that way !!

[DevsAdvocate 112]

My belief is that it is not legal. It needs to be blocked permanently from any type of removal or altercation for the reasons posted above. That is gray matter and 100% something you don't want to risk and find out the hard way. If it is not legal in NJ you're looking at a VERY hefty felony charge and bye bye guns forever. Don't risk it. Weld the suckers shut. Or even better leave/sell 'em in Penn.

Mike

 

That's insane! What good is a magazine that can't be taken apart for cleaning?

[DevsAdvocate 112]

You're over-thinking the issue. If a Police Officer ever had a reason to check your magazine's capacity, would it fit more than 15 rounds? Can the magazine be disassembled and re-assembled with only parts that YOU own to accept more than 15 rounds? If the answer to each is no, then don't sweat it.

 

That's my thinking... If you ever get busted, or your mags get tested, the only thing that matters is: can they hold more than 15 rounds in their current configuration. And is the modification permanent to the extent that without using tools or breaking parts, it can't be modified.

[Farsanarian 0]

As far as what other people think at the range... I've never personally had a problem. I have (5) 15/30 AK mags... you can't get any more evil looking than that... no one has ever said dick to me... and I go to Range 14, which is public.

 

But over all... I hate these types of discussions... it causes me to worry. I have 20 pop riveted AK mags between my two AK's.... 15 are 15/20's and 5 are 15/30's. All are pop riveted and all of the floor plates come off... the springs and followers don't come out of course. Threads like this cause me to worry.

[vjf915 456]

That's insane! What good is a magazine that can't be taken apart for cleaning?

What good is a semi-automatic rifle that we're not allowed to use standard capacity magazines in :thsmiley_deadhorse:

[Soju 153]

For the OP's question, I think that would be perfectly fine. My understanding is, the reason for the language in the statues is to prevent someone from having a higher capacity magazine, then just popping in a block to reduce it, where all they have to do to increase it back over the legal limit is to remove the baseplate and out their block falls. If you are having to break it, or use tools to fix it, then you are fine.

 

Think about it the other way. What if you have a factory standard 15 round magazine. A magazine that was designed only to hold 15 or less rounds. It would be stupid to call that illegal because you could modify it to hold more then 15 rounds right? Same goes for the other way around.

 

If you think otherwise, you are probably too paranoid about NJ to even own a semi-automatic firearm of any sorts in this state to begin with.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

For the OP's question, I think that would be perfectly fine. My understanding is, the reason for the language in the statues is to prevent someone from having a higher capacity magazine, then just popping in a block to reduce it, where all they have to do to increase it back over the legal limit is to remove the baseplate and out their block falls. If you are having to break it, or use tools to fix it, then you are fine.

 

Think about it the other way. What if you have a factory standard 15 round magazine. A magazine that was designed only to hold 15 or less rounds. It would be stupid to call that illegal because you could modify it to hold more then 15 rounds right? Same goes for the other way around.

 

If you think otherwise, you are probably too paranoid about NJ to even own a semi-automatic firearm of any sorts in this state to begin with.

 

Yeah. I was investigating the possibility of welding a plastic rod in a certain magazine to limit it to 15 rounds. But if I could modify the follower... that would be even better.

[crackaloon 15]

I think the wording of laws can be taken more than one way. This particular one could be an honest mistake because the people making the laws don't understand what they're writing about. I on the other hand think they wrote the laws this way because they still want to be able to charge you with a high capacity violation if you're caught doing something else illegal. There will always be different interpretations of the law until someone goes to court and clarifies each aspect with a judgement, or the state police produce a guide that clarifies things.

[GRIZ 3,369]

The law concerning "permanently blocked" is as clear as mud. Each case of permanently blocked will be treated as it comes up. I don't have any magazines that can ever hold more than 15 rds so there are no questions. That's just me perhaps.

 

To me your idea of a "welded rod" doesn't sound permanent if you can snap it off as you describe in your original post.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

The law concerning "permanently blocked" is as clear as mud. Each case of permanently blocked will be treated as it comes up. I don't have any magazines that can ever hold more than 15 rds so there are no questions. That's just me perhaps.

 

To me your idea of a "welded rod" doesn't sound permanent if you can snap it off as you describe in your original post.

 

That would pretty much invalidate any of the blocked magazines that NJ gun owners use though.

 

Have there been any major cases where this has come up?

[DevsAdvocate 112]

I think the wording of laws can be taken more than one way. This particular one could be an honest mistake because the people making the laws don't understand what they're writing about. I on the other hand think they wrote the laws this way because they still want to be able to charge you with a high capacity violation if you're caught doing something else illegal. There will always be different interpretations of the law until someone goes to court and clarifies each aspect with a judgement, or the state police produce a guide that clarifies things.

 

Which I don't understand. If you got someone for committing one crime, then just stick with that. I don't understand why robbing a 7/11 with Body Armor, a 17 round Magazine, loaded with JHPs is any more dangerous than doing it without all those accouterments.

[GRIZ 3,369]

Which I don't understand. If you got someone for committing one crime, then just stick with that. I don't understand why robbing a 7/11 with Body Armor, a 17 round Magazine, loaded with JHPs is any more dangerous than doing it without all those accouterments

 

I generally agree with your statement. A holdup man wearing body armor indicates he is predisposed to shootimg it out. The assault weapon, magazine, and hollowpoint issues can be solved if they would just change the law by following possession or possessing with "during the commission of a felony" as it is with body armor. If the penalty for armed robbery while wearing body armor and using an AR with 100 rd magazine loaded with hollowpoints is to be sent through a wood chipper and used as chum I wouldn't care as I'm never going to do that.

[DevsAdvocate 112]

Which I don't understand. If you got someone for committing one crime, then just stick with that. I don't understand why robbing a 7/11 with Body Armor, a 17 round Magazine, loaded with JHPs is any more dangerous than doing it without all those accouterments

 

I generally agree with your statement. A holdup man wearing body armor indicates he is predisposed to shootimg it out. The assault weapon, magazine, and hollowpoint issues can be solved if they would just change the law by following possession or possessing with "during the commission of a felony" as it is with body armor. If the penalty for armed robbery while wearing body armor and using an AR with 100 rd magazine loaded with hollowpoints is to be sent through a wood chipper and used as chum I wouldn't care as I'm never going to do that.

 

Or he was able to afford the fancy toys and the other guy was too poor to get them

[vladtepes 1,060]

the answer is simple as I understand it...

 

a DEALER in NJ selling magazines is obligated to permanently modify the magazine prior to sale so that changing it would destroy the magazine...

 

the CONSUMER on the other hand is not bound by the same rules as far as the consumer goes.. the magazine may only hold 15 rounds.. period..HOW that happens is not relevant...

 

 

there is a difference between firearms law.. and the administrative law that dealers must comply with....

 

I am pretty sure that is the situation..

[halbautomatisch 60]

^ THIS^

 

You will not find a definition of what "Permanently Blocked" means because it is not an actual law. The law (under 2C), says that the mag can not hold more than 15 rounds. How that is achieved is not relevant under 2C.

 

The Administrative Code (Title 13), which applies to dealers selling blocked mags, says the mags must be permanently blocked, but it does not define what that means.

[mipafox 438]

Riddle me this... What does it mean to have a capacity of 15?

 

It means you're fucked.

 

Nothing else follows.

 

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[msg73 1]

I bought some 25rd mags pinned to 15rds from an online dealer. It seems that the mag was pinned by drilling a hole (only on one side)and installing a pin with some expoxy. Technically, I can drill out the pin and make it a 25rd mag. However, that shouldn't make the mag illegal since I can't remove the pin by hand or it can't accidentally fall out. It would take a deliberate act with tools to alter it, which would be illegal.

 

The question is what does NJ law mean by "permanent"? For example, if I buy a legal shotgun and cut the barrel down to an illegal length. This doesn't make the original shotgun illegal as this would never happen without deliberate action. The act of cutting it down made the shotgun illegal. Therefore, if it's welded to limit it to 15rds and you can't alter it without tools, it should be considered legal. IMHO and not legal advice.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I bought some 25rd mags pinned to 15rds from an online dealer. It seems that the mag was pinned by drilling a hole (only on one side)and installing a pin with some expoxy. Technically, I can drill out the pin and make it a 25rd mag. However, that shouldn't make the mag illegal since I can't remove the pin by hand or it can't accidentally fall out. It would take a deliberate act with tools to alter it, which would be illegal.

 

The question is what does NJ law mean by "permanent"? For example, if I buy a legal shotgun and cut the barrel down to an illegal length. This doesn't make the original shotgun illegal as this would never happen without deliberate action. The act of cutting it down made the shotgun illegal. Therefore, if it's welded to limit it to 15rds and you can't alter it without tools, it should be considered legal. IMHO and not legal advice.

 

 

very simple....

 

permanently modified.. meaning can not be reversed and then USED..

 

permanent..

a 30 round mag that is cut down to 15..

a 20 round mag with a block down to 15 with a welded floor plate..

 

this way they KNOW you can not easily switch out to high cap..

 

non permanent...

a pin and some glue...pick off the epoxy and push out the pin with needle nose pliers..

 

 

you can legally own either.. that is how the law is written... magazine capacity of 15 or less.. PERIOD..

but if you are a dealer.. you can only sell permanently modified ones... this is how the admin code is written.. PERIOD..

the law on this is fairly straight forward..