Spouse hold gun in house

[vladtepes 1,060]

So, lets say im not home, some one breaks in, my wife grabs one of my guns and shoots the criminal. Who would be the actual criminal?

 

 

if your wife is a good enough aim.. my guess is by the end of the night there would be NO criminals..

 

I am not sure there is any prosecutor out there who is willing to throw his (or her) career under the bus to (try to) push charges on a female home alone who used her husbands firearm to save her life in a situation where she felt her life was threatened..

[halbautomatisch 60]

One more thing to ponder, the way I read this statute, you can temporarily transfer a firearm in your home, or anywhere else, to train someone on its' use.

 

 

 

 

 

2C:58-3.1. temporary transfer of firearms

1. a. Notwithstanding the provisions of N.J.S.2C:39-9, N.J.S.2C:58-2, N.J.S.2C:58-3 or any other statute to the contrary concerning the transfer or disposition of firearms, the legal owner, or a dealer licensed under N.J.S.2C:58-2, may temporarily transfer a handgun, rifleor shotgun to another person who is 18 years of age or older, whether or not the person receiving the firearm holds a firearms purchaser identification card or a permit to carry a handgun. The person to whom a handgun, rifle or shotgun is temporarily transferred by the legal owner of the firearm or a licensed dealer may receive, possess, carry and use that handgun, rifle or shotgun, if the transfer is made upon a firing range operated by a licensed dealer, by a law enforcement agency, a legally recognized military organization or a rifle or pistol club which has filed a copy of its charter with the superintendent and annually submits to the superintendent a list of its members and if the firearm is received, possessed, carried and used for the sole purpose of target practice, trap or skeet shooting, or competition upon that firing range or instruction and training at any location.

[PK90 3,570]

Again, what statute would the transferee or transferor be charged with? Please name the statute in Title 2C or 2A.

[Anselmo 87]

Again, what statute would the transferee or transferor be charged with? Please name the statute in Title 2C or 2A.

 

Agreed. We need to go back and define "transfer". Is letting my wife hold my gun in our bedroom considered a transfer? I think it can be argued that is something that married folks do in the privacy of their own home and there are no laws against it.

[diamondd817 827]

if your wife is a good enough aim.. my guess is by the end of the night there would be NO criminals..

 

I am not sure there is any prosecutor out there who is willing to throw his (or her) career under the bus to (try to) push charges on a female home alone who used her husbands firearm to save her life in a situation where she felt her life was threatened..

 

 

Hope your right. Because she would open fire long before I did.

[PK90 3,570]

Again, what statute would the transferee or transferor be charged with? Please name the statute in Title 2C or 2A.

 

Let me answer this. NONE. The transfer took place within the allowable exemption as stated.

 

Should the transfer take place other than under the exemptions of 2C:39-6 or 2C:58-3.1, one would then be charged with 2C:39-5.

[Dan 177]

Let me answer this. NONE. The transfer took place within the allowable exemption as stated.

 

Should the transfer take place other than under the exemptions of 2C:39-6 or 2C:58-3.1, one would then be charged with 2C:39-5.

 

I'll play..

 

What is the allowable exemption for a gun to be transferred between a husband (owner of said gun) and wife in their own home? N.J.S.2C:39-6 e. allows the "keeping or carrying" of "any" firearm in the home. Nothing is said about transferring a firearm to another person, which is distinctly different as they go so far as to define transfers.

 

I'll tell you... if it does not meet the Temporary Transfer exemptions in 2C:58-3.1, it is then covered in 2C:58-3 a.-l. which governs dispositions of firearms. Pay special attention to "otherwise acquire", as in if the wife picking up the gun on her own accord from the kitchen table.

 

Again, I'm not arguing possession in the home, I'm arguing that disposition, acquisition, and transfer rules do still apply. Its about how the wife came to posess the gun, not the act of posessing that is in question.

 

2C:58-3 b.

No person shall sell, give, transfer, assign or otherwise dispose of nor receive, purchase or otherwise acquire an antique cannon or a rifle or shotgun, other than an antique rifle or shotgun, unless the purchaser, assignee, donee, receiver or holder is licensed as a dealer under this chapter or possesses a valid firearms purchaser identification card, and first exhibits said card to the seller, donor, transferor or assignor, and unless the purchaser, assignee, donee, receiver or holder signs a written certification, on a form prescribed by the superintendent, which shall indicate that he presently complies with the requirements of subsection c. of this section and shall contain his name, address and firearms purchaser identification card number or dealer's registration number.

[Soju 153]

How can the possession be legal if the transfer is illegal? What is the purpose of an illegal transfer if possession is legal on both ends? What makes it illegal?

 

Your home. You are not prohibited, possession is legal. Nothing can prevent that. So how is a transfer illegal? Did a transfer even take place?

 

I can't believe this is even a debate. I know NJ has messed up gun laws, but it is like because there are messed up gun laws, you guys are looking for reasons to make them worse than they are. Something isn't passing the logic test...

 

So you are going to the range with a friend. Your friend comes over to your house. He helps load a firearm in your car. Then you get to the range, he unloads the firearm from your car to shoot. Is that an illegal transfer because it actually happened at your house? Was it illegal for him to help you load your car? Does anyone even care? I know I don't, but it seems like there are threads all over this forum arguing such type of things...

[Anselmo 87]

How can the possession be legal if the transfer is illegal? What is the purpose of an illegal transfer if possession is legal on both ends? What makes it illegal?

 

Your home. You are not prohibited, possession is legal. Nothing can prevent that. So how is a transfer illegal? Did a transfer even take place?

 

I can't believe this is even a debate. I know NJ has messed up gun laws, but it is like because there are messed up gun laws, you guys are looking for reasons to make them worse than they are. Something isn't passing the logic test...

 

So you are going to the range with a friend. Your friend comes over to your house. He helps load a firearm in your car. Then you get to the range, he unloads the firearm from your car to shoot. Is that an illegal transfer because it actually happened at your house? Was it illegal for him to help you load your car? Does anyone even care? I know I don't, but it seems like there are threads all over this forum arguing such type of things...

 

Exactly. There is no transfer.

[vladtepes 1,060]

How can the possession be legal if the transfer is illegal? What is the purpose of an illegal transfer if possession is legal on both ends? What makes it illegal?

 

Your home. You are not prohibited, possession is legal. Nothing can prevent that. So how is a transfer illegal? Did a transfer even take place?

 

I can't believe this is even a debate. I know NJ has messed up gun laws, but it is like because there are messed up gun laws, you guys are looking for reasons to make them worse than they are. Something isn't passing the logic test...

 

So you are going to the range with a friend. Your friend comes over to your house. He helps load a firearm in your car. Then you get to the range, he unloads the firearm from your car to shoot. Is that an illegal transfer because it actually happened at your house? Was it illegal for him to help you load your car? Does anyone even care? I know I don't, but it seems like there are threads all over this forum arguing such type of things...

 

 

i would +1 this all night if I could..

 

in your home.. you can handle ANY gun.. the law CLEARLY states that...

[vladtepes 1,060]

Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm,

[Dan 177]

Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm,

 

Again, I am not arguing possession, AKA "keeping or carrying", I'm proposing that under NJ laws, there is no legal way to (transfer, purchase, receive, or otherwise acquire) a firearm from owner to a non-owner even if they both live in the same home without going through the entire paperwork process.

 

Guys, possession and the act of receiving, acquiring, transferring firearms are two separate statutes. Please read 2C:58-3, which covers these things. It explains all the rules that need to be follow before a person comes into possession. Once a person legally acquires a gun according to 2C:58-3, now 2C:39-6 e. exemptions provides a way of "keeping and carrying" that gun on their own property, home, place of business. Otherwise, if what you are saying is correct, we don't have to follow 2C:58-3 when dealing with two people that live in the same home.

 

The only way under NJ law that the wife could come into possession (receive, purchase, or otherwise acquire) a gun even in her own home would be via inheritance or if she moved into NJ with it in the first place. This would indicate the wife is the owner, even though she doesn't have an FID or filled out NJ paperwork. She would have to live within the exemptions just like everyone else.

 

If your friend came over your house, and you handed him your gun, technically that is illegal as your home is not a condition of the Temporary Transfer rules and exemptions in 2C:58-3.1.

 

I'm also not arguing the fact that it is highly unlikely that LE or anyone for that matter will bust down your door and arrest you. I'm strictly sticking to technicalities and interpretations within NJ laws.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Nothing in subsections b., c. and d. of N.J.S.2C:39-5 shall be construed to prevent a person keeping or carrying about his place of business, residence, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, any firearm,

 

Again, I am not arguing possession, AKA "keeping or carrying", I'm proposing that under NJ laws, there is no legal way to (transfer, purchase, receive, or otherwise acquire) a firearm from owner to a non-owner even if they both live in the same home without going through the entire paperwork process.

 

Guys, possession and the act of receiving, acquiring, transferring firearms are two separate statutes. Please read 2C:58-3, which covers these things. It explains all the rules that need to be follow before a person comes into possession. Once a person legally acquires a gun according to 2C:58-3, now 2C:39-6 e. exemptions provides a way of "keeping and carrying" that gun on their own property, home, place of business. Otherwise, if what you are saying is correct, we don't have to follow 2C:58-3 when dealing with two people that live in the same home.

 

The only way under NJ law that the wife could come into possession (receive, purchase, or otherwise acquire) a gun even in her own home would be via inheritance or if she moved into NJ with it in the first place. This would indicate the wife is the owner, even though she doesn't have an FID or filled out NJ paperwork. She would have to live within the exemptions just like everyone else.

 

If your friend came over your house, and you handed him your gun, technically that is illegal as your home is not a condition of the Temporary Transfer rules and exemptions in 2C:58-3.1.

 

I'm also not arguing the fact that it is highly unlikely that LE or anyone for that matter will bust down your door and arrest you. I'm strictly sticking to technicalities and interpretations within NJ laws.

 

then we agree to disagree...

 

if you REALLY believe you are right... play it safe.. and keep your guns out of the hands of others.. period..

but do us all a favor and keep that opinion to yourself.. god forbid you plant the seed in someones head that causes their loved one the slightest moment of hesitation when reaching for a gun in a self defense situation.. thus costing them their lives..

 

to me the law says in my home I can carry ANY gun.. the law is at that point exempting me or my spouse from transfer while IN the home.. it does not mean I can give her the gun and now it is hers and she can take it to the range...

 

it just means.. as it is literally written.. NOTHING will prevent you from having.. carrying.. etc... ANY gun while in your home..

like I said.. not clear enough for you? then err on the side of caution.. but please.. refrain from filling other peoples heads with that nonsense.. because it COULD cause someone to second guess saving their own life..

[vladtepes 1,060]

there is NO transfer NEEDED because.. as the law states.. NOTHING in the law is to prevent a person from handling ANY gun in their home...

[Anselmo 87]

 

 

If your friend came over your house, and you handed him your gun, technically that is illegal as your home is not a condition of the Temporary Transfer rules and exemptions in 2C:58-3.1.

 

 

 

I'm arguing that this is not a temporary transfer. It's not a transfer. Just because you let someone hold something in your house doesn't mean you transferred it to him/her.

 

That the wife lives in the same house as the gun owner she already has constructive possession of the firearm(s).

[nj22 2]

Kind of sorry I asked...

 

What vladtepes is arguing seems totally logical to me. Nothing can prevent you from handling a firearm in your home--any firearm, whether bought by your wife, dropped by a bad guy during a B&E, or materialized out of thin air. This would prevent homeowners from unwillingly becoming criminals due to events out of their control.

 

Transfers seem to be about a class of ownership and legal possession outside of the home, and even if a wife handing her husband a gun in the living room is a transfer, it would be exempted by the "nothing shall."

 

From what I had read it almost sounded like there was a specific law regarding spousal transfer in the home. Not that there was some illogical way of reading transfer laws to imply that it was illegal. This is why I asked.

[Soju 153]

Again, I am not arguing possession, AKA "keeping or carrying", I'm proposing that under NJ laws, there is no legal way to (transfer, purchase, receive, or otherwise acquire) a firearm from owner to a non-owner even if they both live in the same home without going through the entire paperwork process.

 

Guys, possession and the act of receiving, acquiring, transferring firearms are two separate statutes.

 

The only way under NJ law that the wife could come into possession (receive, purchase, or otherwise acquire) a gun even in her own home would be via inheritance or if she moved into NJ with it in the first place. This would indicate the wife is the owner, even though she doesn't have an FID or filled out NJ paperwork. She would have to live within the exemptions just like everyone else.

 

 

 

Again I ask, how can the transfer be illegal, if upon receiving the firearm it is legal? I can legally posses my firearm in my house. My wife can legally posses my firearm in our house. Yet somehow, when the firearm is in limbo, something illegal is taking place?

 

What transfer are you talking about. Please state a time where there is a transfer but no possession. Is somehow when my firearm is sitting on the table where nobody has possession of it, the illegal transfer?

 

After all, if the possession is legal, but the transfer illegal, then the illegal act must have taken place when nobody had possession of it!

[Malsua 1,422]

 

to me the law says in my home I can carry ANY gun.. the law is at that point exempting me or my spouse from transfer while IN the home

 

The law also says range and business too.

 

Your interpretation of the law means that a spouse can have the gun as long as it falls within the exemptions.

[Sixtytwo327 14]

Tell your wife to get her FID.

 

Problem solved.

[Dan 177]

then we agree to disagree...

 

if you REALLY believe you are right... play it safe.. and keep your guns out of the hands of others.. period..

but do us all a favor and keep that opinion to yourself.. god forbid you plant the seed in someones head that causes their loved one the slightest moment of hesitation when reaching for a gun in a self defense situation.. thus costing them their lives..

 

to me the law says in my home I can carry ANY gun.. the law is at that point exempting me or my spouse from transfer while IN the home.. it does not mean I can give her the gun and now it is hers and she can take it to the range...

 

it just means.. as it is literally written.. NOTHING will prevent you from having.. carrying.. etc... ANY gun while in your home..

like I said.. not clear enough for you? then err on the side of caution.. but please.. refrain from filling other peoples heads with that nonsense.. because it COULD cause someone to second guess saving their own life..

 

 

 

For some reason I can't get across that receiving, acquiring, transferring are all governed by separate laws than possession. The act of giving , receiving, acquiring is completely different than possessing, keeping, carrying. The later has to occur first. There are two legal tests at play here and two statutes that governs each.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own interpretation of the laws. And please refrain from calling my ideas nonsense and rhetoric on how my interpretations could cause loss of life. That's just being silly on both fronts.

 

I'll agree to disagree here as well. I'm closing my argument...

[Anselmo 87]

The purpose of the law is to control who is granted permission by the state to have a gun. There are laws to prevent people from circumventing the laws on how to get the permission to have a gun. Letting your wife or friend hold your gun in your house does not rise to a level of circumventing the laws to get permission from the state for your friend/wife have a gun. Because, they don't have a gun. They just held one in a private setting. In my opinion, of course.

 

Courts decide arguments about the meaning of laws. Until there is a court case to define this, we're just whistling Dixie.

[Dan 177]

Again I ask, how can the transfer be illegal, if upon receiving the firearm it is legal? I can legally posses my firearm in my house. My wife can legally posses my firearm in our house. Yet somehow, when the firearm is in limbo, something illegal is taking place?

 

What transfer are you talking about. Please state a time where there is a transfer but no possession. Is somehow when my firearm is sitting on the table where nobody has possession of it, the illegal transfer?

 

After all, if the possession is legal, but the transfer illegal, then the illegal act must have taken place when nobody had possession of it!

 

If you placed your gun on the table, and your wife picks it up while in your home... would you say that she "received" (define : take delivery of) or "acquired" (define: to gain for oneself through one's actions or efforts) the gun? So that's covered in 2C:58-3... below for your reading.

 

2C:39-6 e. allows for the "keeping and carrying" in your home and place of business.

 

define keeping: to hold or retain in one's possession

define carrying: to be the means of conveying or transporting

 

How does one keep or carry something without acquiring or receiving it first? 2C:58-3 must be satisfied before 2C:39-6 e. exemptions can take place.

 

 

 

2C-58-3:

Firearms purchaser identification card. No person shall sell, give, transfer, assign or otherwise dispose of nor receive, purchase or otherwise acquire an antique cannon or a rifle or shotgun, other than an antique rifle or shotgun, unless the purchaser, assignee, donee, receiver or holder is licensed as a dealer under this chapter or possesses a valid firearms purchaser identification card, and first exhibits said card to the seller, donor, transferor or assignor, and unless the purchaser, assignee, donee, receiver or holder signs a written certification, on a form prescribed by the superintendent, which shall indicate that he presently complies with the requirements of subsection c. of this section and shall contain his name, address and firearms purchaser identification card number or dealer's registration number. The said certification shall be retained by the seller, as provided in paragraph (4) of subsection a. of N.J.S.2C:58-2, or, in the case of a person who is not a dealer, it may be filed with the chief of police of the municipality in which he resides or with the superintendent.

[Dan 177]

OK now i'm really finished just had those last questions. Thanks for the argument fellas, all in good sport, and I respect everyone's own interpretations and opinions.

[LorenzoS 100]

For crap's sake people, NJ firearm laws are bad enough. Please stop doing acid and having hallucinations over how bad they might be if the boogeyman got you.

[PK90 3,570]

Let me throw this one in here for the last time.

 

The statute that exempts a Police Officer to take possession of a prohibited weapon is listed under 2C:39-3. The only other statute that exempts them from taking possession of a firearm that is not prohibited is under 2C:39-6. This is the same exemption statute that allows civilians to take possession as stated in 2C:39-6e. Without the exemptions stated for Police Officers, they can not legally acquire and possess firearms that they come in contact with during the performance of their job. This IS the exemption statute for acquiring AND possessing those firearms.

[Cavalier1979 0]

Here is a scenario I was thinking about the other day. My wife had to rent some office space for her business. Sometimes she may have to be there alone. Is the following legal in NJ..

 

She is leasing the space for her business

She has an FID card

 

Can she

 

Take a pistol unloaded in a locked case with no ammo in her car to the business load the gun while she is inside. When she is ready to leave unload the gun leave the magazine at the business and transport the pistol back to our home in a locked box?

[Soju 153]

Yes.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Here is a scenario I was thinking about the other day. My wife had to rent some office space for her business. Sometimes she may have to be there alone. Is the following legal in NJ..

 

She is leasing the space for her business

She has an FID card

 

Can she

 

Take a pistol unloaded in a locked case with no ammo in her car to the business load the gun while she is inside. When she is ready to leave unload the gun leave the magazine at the business and transport the pistol back to our home in a locked box?

 

If she IS the owner of the business yes she can, but she can transport the gun and ammo the gun just needs to be unloaded to and from. No need for additional trips just for ammo and no reason at all to leave a mag at the office unless it's for convenience and she has others at home.

[hd2000fxdl 422]

About this thread,,, BRB, need asprin!!

[msg73 1]

I get a chuckle out of this thread because I've worried about these scenarios before. I understand that we all want to follow the laws, but I've concluded that reality is vastly different than debating over the legal implecations. I assume everyone would agree that if your spouse is home and someone breaks in that he/she should absolutely take possession of your gun and use it as defense if any innocent lives (his/hers/children) are in danger. I can't imagine anyone telling their spouse "Honey, if a BG breaks in and you feel your life is in danger, don't use my gun because we MAY get charged with an illegal transfer".