410... 12g birdshot.. VS heavy clothing?

[vladtepes 1,060]

I am NOT trying to turn this into a ridiculous anecdotal argument about this... that.. or the other..

 

OBVIOUSLY even 410 out of a revolver barrel at point blank range in the right spot will do something.. so with that said onto the actual question..

there are a million and one accounts of various rounds into ballistic gelatin.. anyone have any video of these less conventional round through heavier clothing.. some people say it is an adequate man stopper.. others say a heavy down coat would be enough to negate the weapons ability to reach vital organs..

 

I obviously don't want to be shot with either.. but just wondering if there is any REAL data documenting the ability to penetrate through HEAVY clothing (think down jacket.. carhart.. etc...) there has to be some type of info out there? I honestly dont know enough about it?

[blksheep 466]

[blksheep 466]

[vladtepes 1,060]

right.. but drywall and water jugs are not human flesh with a heavy winter coat.. I am thinking 200+ lb man with heavy layered winter clothing on.. I could not watch with sound at the moment.. but those videos don't really tell me much.. further what happens when you get down to 410 out of a revolver.. genuinely seeking some concrete tests.. not attempting to stir "the pot"

[Jon 264]

Ugh...

 

Okay, this has gone on long enough. I'm going to do a test at my private range w/ .410 as well as 12ga birdshot. Who wants to donate a jacket to the cause? Also, what do you want the target medium to be? I should be able to get this done in the next week or so.

 

ETA: I can do 20ga as well. I have a .410, 20ga, and 12ga shotgun that I can use for the test. I will not be using a .410 revolver.

[vladtepes 1,060]

Ugh...

 

Okay, this has gone on long enough. I'm going to do a test at my private range w/ .410 as well as 12ga birdshot. Who wants to donate a jacket to the cause? Also, what do you want the target medium to be? I should be able to get this done in the next week or so.

 

that is exactly the point of the thread.. to put it to rest.. you would think that with all the "debate" someone would have already put it to rest..

 

the medium has to be something you can measure depth in.. because just breaching the clothing from 10 feet means nothing.. a shallow nasty wound sucks.. but isn't going to stop some large attacker.. the point of a self defense round is to STOP the threat.. to do that reliably it would have to penetrate deeply enough to strike vitals?

[Jon 264]

I'm thinking a line of jugs, the closest jug has a few layers of denim, or a jacket of some sort. I'll go shopping @ goodwill if need be. Looking for suggestions, and I'll make it happen. Like I said I have the firearms, ammo, and a private range to get it done. You tell me what you want, and I'll do it.

[vladtepes 1,060]

I'm thinking a line of jugs, the closest jug has a few layers of denim, or a jacket of some sort. I'll go shopping @ goodwill if need be. Looking for suggestions, and I'll make it happen. Like I said I have the firearms, ammo, and a private range to get it done. You tell me what you want, and I'll do it.

 

my only issue with water jugs is you have a very solid yes or no as opposed to a measurement of depth.. if the pellets are in jug one.. is that 1/8in of penetration of 3 inches? it just really doesn't tell enough to be worth your time.. I am NOT saying you need to run out and waste money on gel.. but isn't there some measurable medium? got any old pig carcasses laying around? LOL

 

just throwing this out there.. I have NO idea how reliable this would be to measure? but..

http://www.customcartridge.com/pdfs/BallisticGel.pdf

 

in thinking about it.. I imagine out of a full length shotgun it would breach the clothing.. but just not sure I buy that 410 out of a revolver is good for anything more than snakes..

[Jon 264]

Okay, seems like I should have some help with the project, and I'll use the el-cheapo homemade ballistics gel. Going to hold off on the project until Spring, and will make it into a 2-day project. Give me some ideas on what you want to see shot and I'll make it happen.

[Recon Racoon 49]

Why not just buy a pig? The skin, meat, and bones most closely resembles human tolerances, without shooting at a human. Next best thing is ballistic gel. Just throw in some red corn syrup filled balloons to simulate the heart, lungs, and intestines and that'll give you a decent idea of what its going to do to a real person, without shooting a real person.

 

The only problem with either of those is cost. Figure 6 pigs to test 410, 20 and 12 gauge birdshot and buckshot. Same with ballistic gel. You could do three of your chosen medium, but for this I think a control group in the form of buckshot to measure against the birdshot is called for. Just my two cents.

 

I'm excited to see how this turns out any way.

[Jon 264]

I think buying pigs would be very cost-prohibitive, not to mention messy. I'd rather use home-made ballistics gel, or pay for legit gel. My plan is using .45acp or 9mm as a control. This way I could re-use the control brick for one of the tests.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

If we have enough gel, can we toss some .223/5.56, 7.62, etc into the mix (the gel)?

[Jon 264]

Absolutely. I think the limit is going to be how much gel we have. The main concern is birdshot/.410 penetration, but whatever gel is leftover we can shoot with whatever. If anyone wants to donate ammo to the cause I would be happy to try it out, assuming we have enough gel left. Also, if anyone has a .410 revolver I'm willing to burn a permit to transfer it, measure how it does, and then transfer it back to you.

[vladtepes 1,060]

note: do 7.62 last.. or the test will end abruptly.... lol

 

how much penetration do you think is enough..

[Jon 264]

note: do 7.62 last.. or the test will end abruptly.... lol

 

how much penetration do you think is enough..

 

I want to use a known Home Defense round with a published penetration depth as a control. I'll use whatever penetration we get in the home-made gel and compare that to the published depth. I think we should strive for 10-12" as per FBI penetration requirements(after determining the density of the home-made gel vs legitimate gel)

[vladtepes 1,060]

I want to use a known Home Defense round with a published penetration depth as a control. I'll use whatever penetration we get in the home-made gel and compare that to the published depth. I think we should strive for 10-12" as per FBI penetration requirements(after determining the density of the home-made gel vs legitimate gel)

 

sounds perfect to me.. should try some less conventional stuff IF you run into extra ammo.. gel.. etc.. throw a few rounds of 22 through it? I am sure you can scrape up a bunch of "freebie" old clothing to shoot through..

[PK90 3,573]

how much penetration do you think is enough.

 

I think 3 or 4 inches is enough, but i always rely on a full 8.

[blksheep 466]

There is a recipe for home made gel but I can never ffind the gelatin at the market.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

I think 3 or 4 inches is enough, but i always rely on a full 8.

That's what she said....

 

There is a recipe for home made gel but I can never ffind the gelatin at the market.

I know Knoxx gelatin is generally available - my mom used to use it all the time when making Jello to make it firmer...

[hd2000fxdl 422]

Firmer Jello???

[Old Glock guy 1,127]

Firmer Jello???

 

I was going to suggest Jello. That way we could pick out the pellets and eat it when we're done. We could make it part of our NJGF picnic.

[Kaiser7 33]

This thread has piqued my interest. I've actually been wanting to put the 9mm vs. .45ACP to rest myself. I've heard of the "hydrostatic shock" theory, which states that the immense speed of a 9mm can cause shockwaves to travel through the liquids in the body, and damage organs distant from the point of impact. Perhaps I'm over-simplifying it, but I suppose in theory you could shoot someone in the stomach, and the energy could dissipate in a way that it can damage the heart, or other organs not directly impacted by the round.

[Jon 264]

This thread has piqued my interest. I've actually been wanting to put the 9mm vs. .45ACP to rest myself. I've heard of the "hydrostatic shock" theory, which states that the immense speed of a 9mm can cause shockwaves to travel through the liquids in the body, and damage organs distant from the point of impact. Perhaps I'm over-simplifying it, but I suppose in theory you could shoot someone in the stomach, and the energy could dissipate in a way that it can damage the heart, or other organs not directly impacted by the round.

 

You will find proof of this elsewhere on the net, but you need a rifle round fired from a rifle to do this sort of damage. Handguns won't cut it.

[Kaiser7 33]

You will find proof of this elsewhere on the net, but you need a rifle round fired from a rifle to do this sort of damage. Handguns won't cut it.

 

I'd always heard it was 9mm ammunition, which I figured meant the 9mm handgun round.

 

I have to admit, part of the reason I bought that 8mm off you was I saw a comparison on TV of the ballistic damage of a .50 cal musket, some sort of early breechloader, and the 8mm Mauser. I was really impressed by the hole it left. I figured the 8mm round would be a fantastic hunting round.

 

I really want to learn more about ballistics, I really don't know crap about it at the moment. The extent of my knowledge is that a 5.56 fired from a rifle with a 1:14 twist lead to the nickname "meat-axe" because of the parabolic tumbling of the round upon hitting a target.

[Krdshrk 3,878]

Firmer Jello???

 

Jello by itself is still very liquidy and falls apart rather easily. If you tried to cut it into squares it would more often than not fall apart. Cut it with a little Knoxx and it's firmer and easier to cut.

[Caine 147]

For this test to have any meaning, the gelatin needs to be calibrated to a known and acceptable level used for ballistic testing... From the little research I've done on the subject, calibration is accomplished by firing a .177 pelet at 600 fps into the gelatin and then measure penetration. It should penetrate to about 3.5 inches if calibrated correctly. (my numbers may be off - I'm going on memory)

 

If the gelatin isn't calibrated, then you may as well stick to water jugs or wet pack newspaper.

 

ETA:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbTB_lO5c5s

Edited February 8, 2012 by Caine

[Jon 264]

For this test to have any meaning, the gelatin needs to be calibrated to a known and acceptable level used for ballistic testing... From the little research I've done on the subject, calibration is accomplished by firing a .177 pelet at 600 fps into the gelatin and then measure penetration. It should penetrate to about 3.5 inches if calibrated correctly. (my numbers be off - I'm going on memory)

 

If the gelatin isn't calibrated, then you may as well stick to water jugs or wet pack newspaper.

 

That was my intention by firing a control round into it with a published penetration depth, but I can work with 177(I have a beeman air rifle). Can you look up the penetration depth and report back?

[Recon Racoon 49]

Another question I want to ask is how thick are your gel blocks going to be? Are they going to be huge blocks, or are you going to make them into torso sized blocks, since you're testing penetration on a human like medium?

[Caine 147]

That was my intention by firing a control round into it with a published penetration depth, but I can work with 177(I have a beeman air rifle). Can you look up the penetration depth and report back?

I edited my post above with a video that somewhat covers calibration.

 

Also, more info here:

http://www.gelatinin...c_fast_ins.html

Calibration of ballistic gelatin is verified by firing a .177 steel BB at 590 feet per second (fps), plus or minus 15 fps, into the gelatin resulting in 8.5 centimeters (cm), plus or minus 1 cm, penetration (2.95" – 3.74").

[Zell959 40]

I found some info & photos of ballistics gel tests done with shotgun loads that include some birdshot tests. I understand that this would not directly address the effect of heavy clothing, but the tests would seem to support the popular [but not universally held] school of thought that birdshot is a little light on penetration for defensive use, and heavy clothing might only heighten that shortcoming. Nothing on .410 unforunately. http://www.shotgunwo...ic.php?t=109958

 

That said, I think it'll be really cool if j0n has a chance to run a real life test with clothing involved. I personally have already sort of turned the page on the idea of using bird shot for my own HD needs, but this is just one of those subjects that I can't help but find incredibly interesting.

 

One other thing I though I remembered seeing somewhere, but wasn't able to turn up when searching for my reply to this thread, was a substitute methodology to using ballistics gel that I though I had seen discussed by Doctor Gary K. Roberts at some point. Unless I'm literally imagining something I never actually read, I had thought that there was a certain combination of wet newspaper & jugs that he had more or less suggested to be "close enough" for getting penetration info without the expense & challenge associated with ballistics gelatin. I'll keep looking.